Your gold medals don't mean anything

General Discussion
Damage and healing matter. Elims can be misleading with touch heroes like DVA winston, moria, and their 1damage elims. But yeah, dps should, especially if you instalock dps, be one of the highest damage heroes on your team.
02/14/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Sheevah
02/14/2018 08:36 AMPosted by Avian
What if the person with 4 golds is a Tracer or Genji, but the reason you lose is because the enemy flanker or DPS is taking out your own backline and the rest of their team is simply better at fragging out after that?

What if your 4 gold is a Moira who easily farms those? Are you going to pocket the hell out of that person and expect to win?


If one of my 5 team members rocking out all the golds is a flanker, I'm suggesting that the other 5 (including myself) step up their game to pay more attention to the flanker wrecking our own stuff. I am not going to suggest that the person that is actually doing their job needs to switch positions to pick up the slack for everyone else. (If the person with all the golds was me, and I was a flanker, I, personally, would probably try to switch to pick up some of the slack, but it's unreasonable to expect that behavior from strangers that are performing well.)

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If people were able to pick up the slack they would and you wouldn't be losing. People can make the swaps needed but still not be successful in accomplishing whatever they need to do. People just have to ask themselves if they want to lose with 4 golds or win by swapping to something else and potentially losing some medals. It's just pride.
Diamond and above, personal performance doesn't even matter so there is no reason not to swap.

I played a game with Torb and Widow as my DPS vs. Quad tank. The Torb was utterly useless but stayed, the Widow did get a couple of frags but we still lost the fights because despite her getting those elims, the rest of the tanks would just outlast the people on the point because there was no DPS threat there. What we really need was a Reaper, ideally the Torb should have swapped but he wouldn't. The Widow was adamant about staying on Widow because he was getting kills, to this person this was more important that making a change that could potentially make us win.

On attack the same guy played Widow into double barriers (hanamura btw) and didn't really get anything done, I was playing tank and we couldn't break the choke nor walk in because the enemy team had a Bastion. 1 minute left, I swap of tank, go Tracer, flank in and kill both supports at which point we get the first point. We didn't get the 2nd because my team was tilted and everyone basically played a DPS + 1 attack Sym.

As for scorecards, the thing that people keep forgetting is that stats are context sensitive, raw stats don't really tell you much in a game like OW because there are so many game changing plays that can't be measured in any way.
02/14/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Sheevah
Again, we're going to have to disagree from a fundamental stance. If you have a winston that is diving in and getting all the medals while your team can't keep up with them, it makes more sense to go dive comp and work with the Winston already racking up the stats. That's my approach to the game. I want to work with the strongest performing members of my team in any scenario, even if they're getting those stats in a suboptmal fashion. You're free to take the stance that he's overextending, positioning poorly, etc., but he's still putting up numbers where the rest of the team is not. If you work with him, both your numbers and his are going to go up. To ask him to change is to request a stranger put faith in a group of strangers that aren't performing on a whim that they will magically start performing if he switches.


Getting 4 to 5 people to switch and destroying your ult economy, just to build around one person who is feeding to farm medals... that's how you lose games.
I never really ask people to switch on ladder regardless of medals or how poorly I think they are performing. If they think they are playing bad, they will switch themselves. If they don't, calling them out is only going to start an argument.
Last time i played i pushed the payload alone to the objective point and got a gold for it! Does it mean nothing? What was my team doing all those time? Oh yeah being a try hard trying to get as much kill as possible! Although some of them got gold elims so there's that!, it also means they helped kill the enemy before they can get to me!

So yeah as frustrating it is sometimes they do have meaning and it shows!
02/14/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Kry
02/14/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Sheevah
Again, we're going to have to disagree from a fundamental stance. If you have a winston that is diving in and getting all the medals while your team can't keep up with them, it makes more sense to go dive comp and work with the Winston already racking up the stats. That's my approach to the game. I want to work with the strongest performing members of my team in any scenario, even if they're getting those stats in a suboptmal fashion. You're free to take the stance that he's overextending, positioning poorly, etc., but he's still putting up numbers where the rest of the team is not. If you work with him, both your numbers and his are going to go up. To ask him to change is to request a stranger put faith in a group of strangers that aren't performing on a whim that they will magically start performing if he switches.


Getting 4 to 5 people to switch and destroying your ult economy, just to build around one person who is feeding to farm medals... that's how you lose games.
I never really ask people to switch on ladder regardless of medals or how poorly I think they are performing. If they think they are playing bad, they will switch themselves. If they don't, calling them out is only going to start an argument.

This.
The ladder isn't the ideal game mode we want it to be, that's why we have have people one-tricking things like Sym and Torbjorn. If it was then maybe you could get the 5 other people to swap to exactly what you need but as it is, doing what you can yourself to win is the only thing you can control.

Jumping in as a Winston, hitting every thing and then dying does not equal a good play, that most likely is just feeding.
The medal system in general is uninformative. I only ever know what's not working if someone is blatantly dying every 15 seconds or if I have gold elims with 3 as Ana, and haven't actively been trying to kill anyone. For anything else, it's me going off my general assumptions on weather or not another character would be better than the one I'm playing.
False. It's not that they don't mean anything, but they require some context and interpretation.

Are they the best measure of what's up? Not generally, but they're not meaningless.
02/14/2018 08:36 AMPosted by Avian
02/14/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Cozy
...

That makes zero sense. If I have 4 golds but my team is still losing what makes you think the person with 4 golds is the weak link? What about the other dps who cant maintain golds? Or the healers who arent performing well enough so we keep dying, or the tanks who arent tanking enough?

What about the 5 other picks who DONT have golds....where do they factor in?

From personal experience, there has been games where I have had 4 golds as Tracer, getting first frags and doing so much, yet my team is losing because someone else on the enemy team is also doing a good job. If I can deal with that enemy who's carrying for the enemy on Tracer then there's no problem, I can focus that person first, but if it's something that Tracer isn't good at or I on Tracer don't have the skill to pull off, then I'd have to switch to something that deals with the reason why my team and I are losing despite me doing good.
The win condition isn't just being good, the win condition is figuring out what will make your team win and going for that.

02/14/2018 08:33 AMPosted by Sheevah
...

If someone on my team has 4 golds, I'm gonna make a motion that we build around them (assuming we aren't already). It's clear they're already having a good game, and it makes sense to play to your strengths.

Medals, for the most part, are a crap shoot, but if someone is collecting all the golds, it simply doesn't make sense to force the one person that's being the most effective at their job off of their hero.

What if the person with 4 golds is a Tracer or Genji, but the reason you lose is because the enemy flanker or DPS is taking out your own backline and the rest of their team is simply better at fragging out after that?

What if your 4 gold is a Moira who easily farms those? Are you going to pocket the hell out of that person and expect to win?


Nothing but anecdotal fluff.

If you have gold medals you are performing very well on your team regardless of what role. If the team is still losing there is a weak link in the other 5 people. How hard is that to understand?

If I have gold elims, objective elims and time as a soldier or some other dps, or tank, how am I to blame for the team losing? I just fail to see that logic. I get it...switch to help the team but what if your team isnt helping YOU?

Golds mean you are doing something right. Not wrong.
There are some things that can be told through medals in the right context.

For example, D.Va probably shouldn’t have gold damage and Widow really shouldn’t have objective time. Whether it’s your fault or the team’s that you have a medal you shouldn’t, again, depends on context.

Also, it’s never one single medal that’s important, it’s the combination. Gold elims and gold damage means you’re landing shots consistently and are securing kills with them, not just feeding trash damage or leeching kills with useless chip damage.

If someone has 4 golds, don’t flame them to swap, period. 4 golds means they are landing their shots, secureing the kills, and playing the objective as they need to. I promise you, the dude with 4 golds is not the weak spot of your team. You can flame the Hanzo puck all you want, but the fact of the matter is even on the “troll pick” he’s doing better than all of you in every possible way. If something in your comp needs to change, swallow your pride, realize he’s doing better than you, and swap yourself.
02/14/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Avian
If people were able to pick up the slack they would and you wouldn't be losing. People can make the swaps needed but still not be successful in accomplishing whatever they need to do. People just have to ask themselves if they want to lose with 4 golds or win by swapping to something else and potentially losing some medals. It's just pride.
Diamond and above, personal performance doesn't even matter so there is no reason not to swap.

It's more prideful to stick with a pick where you have no medals than it is to stick with a pick where you're outperforming your teammates. At least the person with medals has evidence that they're being more effective than their teammates.

Again, what you're describing is the process of subsidizing the work load of others. It's a valid strategy to take at a personal level, but it's unreasonable to expect complete strangers to share the outlook that the highest performing person on your team should be the one to switch it up.
02/14/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Avian
I played a game with Torb and Widow as my DPS vs. Quad tank. The Torb was utterly useless but stayed, the Widow did get a couple of frags but we still lost the fights because despite her getting those elims, the rest of the tanks would just outlast the people on the point because there was no DPS threat there. What we really need was a Reaper, ideally the Torb should have swapped but he wouldn't. The Widow was adamant about staying on Widow because he was getting kills, to this person this was more important that making a change that could potentially make us win.
In the situation, the person that *should* swap would be the lower performing DPS, regardless of whether that was Torb or Widow. Ideally, both would swap, as they're both weak picks against quad tank setups, but that's neither here nor there.

For the particular case we're discussing, though... if we assume the Widow had 4 golds, despite going against quad tank. Your Widow is not the problem (AKA: The highest in the priority list to change heroes). Your Widow might still be a suboptimal pick (definitely would be), but that's not who you hit up as the first option to switch.

02/14/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Avian
On attack the same guy played Widow into double barriers (hanamura btw) and didn't really get anything done, I was playing tank and we couldn't break the choke nor walk in because the enemy team had a Bastion. 1 minute left, I swap of tank, go Tracer, flank in and kill both supports at which point we get the first point. We didn't get the 2nd because my team was tilted and everyone basically played a DPS + 1 attack Sym.
This is another example of having bad teammates. We can't accurately discuss a scenario with stats/medals when the situations in question nearly all revolve around having underperforming/non-communicating teams, imo. At that point, you just say forget the comp and do all you can to try and solo-carry as much of the burden as possible 'cause you want to win in spite of your team and not because of them.
02/14/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Avian
As for scorecards, the thing that people keep forgetting is that stats are context sensitive, raw stats don't really tell you much in a game like OW because there are so many game changing plays that can't be measured in any way.
I can agree with that, but I will say a scoreboard would be infinitely more valuable than the medal system when looking at team performance.
02/14/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Kry
Getting 4 to 5 people to switch and destroying your ult economy, just to build around one person who is feeding to farm medals... that's how you lose games.
I never really ask people to switch on ladder regardless of medals or how poorly I think they are performing. If they think they are playing bad, they will switch themselves. If they don't, calling them out is only going to start an argument.
If one person is getting all the glory while the rest of your team is floundering about, you don't have much ult economy to work with in the first place. You'd be better served eating the ult charge loss to get a better comp unless someone is going to have their ult in the next team fight.

On the last part, I usually just roll with whatever the team locks in, regardless of whether or not it's crap. Try to fill what holes exist and hope for the best. Tilted teammates are never a winning recipe.
There are some things that can be told through medals in the right context.

For example, D.Va probably shouldn’t have gold damage and Widow really shouldn’t have objective time. Whether it’s your fault or the team’s that you have a medal you shouldn’t, again, depends on context.

Also, it’s never one single medal that’s important, it’s the combination. Gold elims and gold damage means you’re landing shots consistently and are securing kills with them, not just feeding trash damage or leeching kills with useless chip damage.

If someone has 4 golds, don’t flame them to swap, period. 4 golds means they are landing their shots, secureing the kills, and playing the objective as they need to. I promise you, the dude with 4 golds is not the weak spot of your team. You can flame the Hanzo puck all you want, but the fact of the matter is even on the “troll pick” he’s doing better than all of you in every possible way. If something in your comp needs to change, swallow your pride, realize he’s the best on the team at the moment, and swap yourself.


This needs to be stickied at the top of the thread for some of these people to read. You absolutely nail it. There is no more discussion to be had here.
02/14/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Avian

Jumping in as a Winston, hitting every thing and then dying does not equal a good play, that most likely is just feeding.


Again, agree to disagree. Jumping in as winston to get 4 golds, while not ideal, is still more impactful than what the rest of your team is doing in that scenario. If he was blatantly feeding and wasn't getting any kills or dealing damage... that's one thing. But in the scenario where he has 4 golds... he's still doing more work than the rest of your team. That's not the guy you put the blame on.
When I have 4 gold medals as Reinhardt, there's DEFINITELY something wrong.
02/14/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Cyrohound
The medal system in general is uninformative. I only ever know what's not working if someone is blatantly dying every 15 seconds or if I have gold elims with 3 as Ana, and haven't actively been trying to kill anyone. For anything else, it's me going off my general assumptions on weather or not another character would be better than the one I'm playing.


Well if you have 3 elims as Ana, your team probably hasn't won a single team fight yet. You having 3 elims doesn't actually tell what the problem is, only that their is a problem, but you already know this because you've lost every team fight.

Golds don't tell you anything other than, "I am tied or have the highest of this stat on my team." You could have 28 elims and gold as Zenyatta, and your Tracer player has 27. You wouldn't know this by your golds, so should she switch? What if you are winning, should she still switch?

What this really boils down to, is people knowing things aren't working, and trying to justify their opinion by correlating medals with their view. Either you should switch, "because I have golds," or I shouldn't switch, "because I have golds."

This actually reminds me of one of my games a while back. I was on Soldier on Volskaya attack. We came in and steamroll capped first point. Went into second, and our team just fell apart. We just kept staggering into the court and getting picked apart by j0000mla who was on Widow. My team just wouldn't group, our Zenyatta player kept trying to peak the other team that was pushed all the way into the court, and kept getting picked by the Widow. I sat there for over 3 minutes, practically afk (waiting to regroup). I wasn't peaking for damage, I already had visor so why would I (no point in feeding the enemy supports). So I sat there and watched as my team went in 1 by 1 and fed over, and over, and over. I had 4 deaths at the end of the round. My team must have had 12+, but you know what my Zenyatta player said, "Our Soldier fed all game and I have gold damage." So I looked at his profile and guess what, he was a Soldier player.

Medals are meaningless and are only used to justify poor play.
If you are playing a dps and getting gold objective kills/kills, you are doing your job.
If you are playing a healer and getting gold healing. you are doing your job
If you are playing a tank and getting a lot of damage blocked/picks you are doing your job.

No idea where this argument came from
The elimination medal is irrelevant if they’re earned by Genji, Tracer, D.Va, Moira or any other characters just doing small amounts of damage on multiple enemies. The damage medal is valid, the healing medal is valid, time on objective is valid.
depends.

jakerat with gold damage is doing his job
genji/tracer with gold elims are doing their jobs
rein/winston with gold/silver obj time is doing his job
moira with gold healing is doing her job
lucio with silver healing is doing his job

genji/tracer with gold damage are doing very well
ana with gold elims means dps are trash
hog with gold heal means supports are trash
zen with gold heal means main healer is trash
winston/lucio with gold damage means dps are bad
genji/tracer with gold time can mean various things
etc.
02/14/2018 08:08 AMPosted by Reiizm
Medals are not an accurate display of contribution. Heroes like D.Va/Moira often end up with gold elims through chip damage. Hell, it's common for Moira to have 3 golds without even trying that hard. People need to stop referring to medals when flaming teammates or making excuses for not switching.

EDIT: For clarification, I'm not saying the medal system as a whole is inaccurate. It can definitely provide some vague insight. Obviously you want gold healing playing a healer and gold damage as offense. But saying things like "I have x gold medals but we're still losing so I can't carry this team" or "I have x gold elims as (non-offense role) offense you suck" is both a humble brag and blame deflection all rolled into one pointless complaint and it's all too common.

When people say that they have x amount of gold medals, it’s usually because of two things:

1. They’re being accused of throwing

2. They’re being accused of playing poorly or are told that the team is carrying them

I usually have to say that I have gold medals in matches because some of my team mates are trying to get others riled up against my hero choice (Torbjorn), and they accuse me of doing nothing or holding the team back. So when I see all this, think about all the times my turret has picked off squishy characters, think about all the times I’ve taken down tanks with my river gun, and look to see that I have multiple gold medals in elims/obj kills/damage/obj time, you’re damn right I’m going to tell my team mates about my gold medals; to show them that I’m putting the work in and that I’m not the problem with the team.

The thing about people who state their medals is that they aren’t doing it to brag, rather, they do it to show whiners that they’re barking up the wrong tree. If a DPS character, like my Torb, has the highest amount of kills, damage, etc. and the team is still losing, then something is going wrong with the rest of the team members. Maybe they’re not moving in when an opening has occurred, maybe they aren’t grouping up, maybe they can’t survive team fights for whatever reasons, but at the end of the day, you can’t honestly blame the person with multiple gold medals.
As someone that mains a tank that does spam damage, i can understand that finishing the game with gold at 30 elims probably includes some shared elims with the DPSes.

However, if after the first round, you're gold elims with 8 kills, something's definitely wrong.

When you're tank says that he has gold elims and for the DPS to step it up, he's not bragging because he has 20 elims. He says it because the game is three minutes in, he has three elims, and he has gold.
02/14/2018 10:45 AMPosted by Hajile
However, if after the first round, you're gold elims with 8 kills, something's definitely wrong.


If you won the round, is something still wrong? If you just got rolled the entire time, medals has nothing to do with it.

Maybe the tanks didn't create enough space, or peel for the back line.
Maybe the dps didn't secure the kills.
Maybe the supports mismanaged their ults or were out of position.

All of those things could lead to a team getting stomped, and its extremely difficult to perform your role when you are getting suffocated by the other team.

Teams are too interconnected and dependent on one another to tell why one position is under performing. That's why I view medals as pretty pointless, not to mention they don't tell you how far behind your other teammates are.

All I can say is that from my scrim experience, when its 2 actual teams playing against each other, if your entire team is trying to play correctly it isn't uncommon for a Winston to have 3 or 4 golds.

The reason why medals don't matter, is because its just far to easy to farm for medals. Alot of times on ladder people will play for stats instead of actually trying to win.

Why focus down the same target your team is calling, as a Tracer player? You could just tag the focused target, then move on to a different target to farm elims.

Why wait for your team to regroup before shielding a choke as
Rein? You could just pop your shield out and farm damage blocked while no one is behind you. Too bad your shield has 500 health now that your team is ready to go in.

Why let your fellow support get their ult when you already have yours? I mean, you need gold healing right?

The other team just used Trance and Valkyrie and won the last fight. So your Dragon Blade should be uncontested. Good thing your soldier has been poking the Roadhog at the choke while he already has visor. Its not like the enemy supports get ult charge from healing damaged targets right? Who cares Soldier is good, he has gold damage, "Genji switch you aren't getting anything with your ult."

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