Moira isn’t the reason for Ana’s underperformance

General Discussion
02/18/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Hayaishi
Ana is underperforming because winston and D.va are overpowered.


I get killed as often by Tracer and Genji (they are considerably harder to hit with the sleep dart) shouldn't they also be nerfed then?
02/18/2018 02:22 PMPosted by QuizzyBunny
02/18/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Hayaishi
Ana is underperforming because winston and D.va are overpowered.


I get killed as often by Tracer and Genji (they are considerably harder to hit with the sleep dart) shouldn't they also be nerfed then?


Who is enabling them? Which two tanks are enabling them? Which two tanks have tools that literally negate her kits? It sure as !@#$ isn't genji and Tracer so no don't nerf them. Genji and Tracer without WInston and Dva isn't dive. Winston and DVa with Soldier and Pharah still is
02/18/2018 02:22 PMPosted by QuizzyBunny
02/18/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Hayaishi
Ana is underperforming because winston and D.va are overpowered.


I get killed as often by Tracer and Genji (they are considerably harder to hit with the sleep dart) shouldn't they also be nerfed then?


Tracer and Genji are not an issue by themselves.

It is the tanks that makes them overbearing because they take away your chances of fighting back.
02/18/2018 02:14 PMPosted by VMajoris
02/18/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Rob
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Moira, Mercy and Ana all fill the same role in that they are main healers. They obviously have nuances in their kits, but their primary function is to do high single target healing. You clearly knew what I meant.

And I've seen how good Ana can be. She's basically had everything that you're asking for and she was the must-pick healer at that time. I don't think that we should use what is best, or what is worst as a standard for how the game should be balanced, which is why I suggested that Blizzard look at this from multiple angles. I think that's perfectly reasonable. Slight nerfs to the characters that give Ana a hard time, slight nerfs to the character that is the more valuable pick than Ana in 90% of situations, and slight buffs to Ana so the gap becomes even smaller. I don't think giving Ana a ton of buffs and propelling her to the top is the way to go. We already saw what happened when they did that to Mercy.


All I can say to you is if Moira existed during Triple Tank, there would be absolutely no reason to pick Ana over her - and in that case, Moira would have been the one butchered with nerfs, not Ana. So the point is, Ana was only good because she was able to keep up three tanks. But if Moira existed, she would be able to do the same, but 10 times better, AND get more value out of it.


You're probably right and personally, when a single character can become a must-pick, have that much influence over the meta and what comps are viable, I think that character deserves to be nerfed.
02/18/2018 02:27 PMPosted by Rob
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All I can say to you is if Moira existed during Triple Tank, there would be absolutely no reason to pick Ana over her - and in that case, Moira would have been the one butchered with nerfs, not Ana. So the point is, Ana was only good because she was able to keep up three tanks. But if Moira existed, she would be able to do the same, but 10 times better, AND get more value out of it.


You're probably right and personally, when a single character can become a must-pick, have that much influence over the meta and what comps are viable, I think that character deserves to be nerfed.


Except you’re wrong. Triple tank was not mandatory. It was not required to win, nor did it provide you an advantage over any other composition. It was just the hot topic at the time of the season, and it wasn’t a terrible meta where people were sick of it. Personally, I enjoyed it.

But that’s besides the point. The only value Ana brought at the time was being able to keep up tanks. If you took away triple tank, Mercy and Moira would be back in business, being a much more consistent and reliable pick.

She has no self sustain, barriers ruin her, zero mobility, and her only defensive mechanism is a sleep dart that’s a projectile. She has nothing going for her besides anti heal, which most likely she uses on herself because no self healing, and nano boost which requires a lot of coordination.

And pinning this on Winston and DVa is obviously not going to do anything because those two can dive Zenyatta just as easily, yet he has been doing good ever since his 50 HP buff. So what’s really the issue here?

This isn’t about “power creep”. There is no denying that Ana has been underperforming since the nerfs after triple tank hurt her. Buffing her is only going to put her in a more desireable position next to Mercy and Moira. There are so many ways to buff her without making her overpowered, and it’s a real shame you’re not seeing that.
02/18/2018 02:58 PMPosted by VMajoris
And pinning this on Winston and DVa is obviously not going to do anything because those two can dive Zenyatta just as easily, yet he has been doing good ever since his 50 HP buff. So what’s really the issue here?


Because D.va and winston dont even need to dive ana to make her irrelevant.

DM and Bubble delete every single part of Ana's kit meaning she can't contribute to the fight until these two are on cooldown.

Zen has less survibability than Ana but when he positions correctly he can influence the fight with discord and healing orb. His value is not completely denied.

So no buff will make Ana better in this situation. Maybe it is intended by blizzard that Ana is not run against dive comp.
02/18/2018 12:38 PMPosted by dad
It's true though, Moira is all around better than Ana. This doesn't mean that Moira needs a nerf, but the opposite, Ana needs a buff.
That encourages power creep. And imo Moira does needs a slight tweak, compared to top Ana players, top Moira players are outputting around 5-6 thousand more healing.
I don't understand blaming Winston and D.va for Ana's issues when that isn't even the point

Back in 3 Tank;
-Roadhog could 1 shot you (Even without his hook)
-D.va's DM lasted WAY longer
-Zarya and Reinhardt were in every other game and have a MUCH easier time blocking Ana's abilities

What made Ana actually usable was a combo of a few things;
-5 second, 100% heal bonus Grenade
-Roadhog's damage
-D.va's HP pool
-76's damage output

And the BIGGEST thing

-Lucio's aura size

The rework to Lucio hurt Ana the MOST of any character in the game. Since Ana has no passive self heal, she either needs to take focus from the other supports (Mercy and Zen are single target, Moira has a resource), leave the fight to find a health pack, or burn her BEST ability to stay alive.

This wasn't an issue when Lucio's aura was 30 metres in size. Chip damage and non-lethal damage could be shurgged off without taking focus away from what is important.

Without Lucio to back up Ana's lack of a self heal, she REALLY struggles in the game. EVERY other support has a way to keep themselves topped up that doesn't take anything away from the team. Mercy has her passive, Lucio can swap to healing, Zen regain shields, and Moira has both life steal and biotic orb (Which moves and heals more health than Biogrenade)

They have ZERO excuse at this point NOT to give Ana SOME kind of passive healing. That is the BIGGEST thing keeping her down so much.

You can have the most overpowered abilities in the game, but if you spend half your time in respawn, there's no point in trying to use them.
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You're probably right and personally, when a single character can become a must-pick, have that much influence over the meta and what comps are viable, I think that character deserves to be nerfed.


Except you’re wrong. Triple tank was not mandatory. It was not required to win, nor did it provide you an advantage over any other composition. It was just the hot topic at the time of the season, and it wasn’t a terrible meta where people were sick of it. Personally, I enjoyed it.

But that’s besides the point. The only value Ana brought at the time was being able to keep up tanks. If you took away triple tank, Mercy and Moira would be back in business, being a much more consistent and reliable pick.

She has no self sustain, barriers ruin her, zero mobility, and her only defensive mechanism is a sleep dart that’s a projectile. She has nothing going for her besides anti heal, which most likely she uses on herself because no self healing, and nano boost which requires a lot of coordination.

And pinning this on Winston and DVa is obviously not going to do anything because those two can dive Zenyatta just as easily, yet he has been doing good ever since his 50 HP buff. So what’s really the issue here?

This isn’t about “power creep”. There is no denying that Ana has been underperforming since the nerfs after triple tank hurt her. Buffing her is only going to put her in a more desireable position next to Mercy and Moira. There are so many ways to buff her without making her overpowered, and it’s a real shame you’re not seeing that.

Nothing is mandatory, but if you want to win you pick the best comp. Back then, triple tank was the best comp. I enjoy every comp, I just don't enjoy when 1 clearly outshines all of the others and I think the devs should continue to work to prevent that by finally addressing Dive. D.Va and Winston are clearly the best tanks for almost every situation. That includes targeting supports. By slightly nerfing them, not only would that help Ana, it would help all of the other tanks and stop them from needing even more buffs than the ones they've already got.

Ana had more value than just keeping up tanks, she used to be the most influential part of Beyblade before that got nerfed and that comp is not something you can replicate with any of the other healers; it was purely an Ana problem and it got addressed.

And yes, I know there are many ways to buff Ana, but what you're failing to realize is that I'm suggesting that nothing will be enough to make her balanced with Moira without turning Ana into the next must-pick healer like she used to be. The disparity between their kits is far too great to simply buff one hero and not do anything to the other. I don't understand why you are so opposed to having this issue addressed from multiple directions and instead are advocating for going all-in in one. If we were to only buff Ana, Mercy would then get thrown to the wayside and people would be asking for her to get buffed again. By addressing the problem from multiple angles, the currently good balance between Ana and Mercy is more likely to be left intact while at the same time allowing both of those characters to compete with Moira. You're way too focused on Ana when you should be considering the meta as a whole.
Ana needs help because main healers pretty much have an ability to help engage a fight, and support healers (Lucio and Zen generally) have a counter ult.

Ana really doesn't seem like she holds up to Mercy and Moira, so she kind of falls out of a place to be a main healer.

Ana doesn't have a counter ult to make her as effective of a choice as Lucio and Zen either, so she kind of falls out of place to be a support healer as well with their panic button ult as well.
There exist within Overwatch a common thought of supports being grouped into 'main healers' and 'off healers' which I don't agree with. For example, I play Mercy a lot, and usually have gold healing, but when I play on control maps and we have a Lucio, I usually have silver healing. Most people consider Lucio a 'off healer' but his abilities are so strong on control maps that--in my experience at least--Lucio can consistently outperform a Mercy.

I think that it's a similar situation with Ana. Ana is not a 'main healer' and shouldn't be regarded as one, instead she should be thought of as a 'tank healer' which is best suited for slow moving high-health pool team compositions which play well with her kit. Moira can perform the same role as Ana, but only to a certain extent. As sooner or later, Moira will have to stop healing in order to recharge her healing resource. The only reason Ana ever has to stop is to reload.

I know it's probably not what many people want to hear, but come on. It's basically an accepted fact that you don't play Zenyatta without another healer on the team, so why isn't it an accepted fact that you shouldn't play Ana without a high-damage, low-mobility team composition?

Different heroes are designed to work in different ways.
when mercy was hands down better than all the other healers i was against buffing all the other supports to let them compete and likewise i'm against nerfing supports specifically so that ana could find her place back into the meta. if a hero is a balance issue in any way it's always easiest to just directly address them rather than try to change everything around them

that said, dive is basically the worst thing that could happen to her viability and i'm not entirely sure that the problem is her or if it's because two of her most direct counters (winston and dva) are in every single game (which, to be clear, is not an issue that's caused by any other support). we've all seen what happens when ana is overtuned and nobody wants that again, and if she's buffed to be able to handle her direct counters then what happens to her pickrate when they inevitably are in fewer games and her buffs make her better against heroes she was never meant to be better against? idk just food for thought, but i would love a small ability to shrug off chip damage so i don't constantly have to use nades on myself or camp health packs... when lucio had his huge aura this wasn't really something ana players had to worry about, but now lucio has to make the deliberate decision to make sure ana gets heals and on the ladder, that's pretty rare.
02/18/2018 03:46 PMPosted by DangerBeans
There exist within Overwatch a common thought of supports being grouped into 'main healers' and 'off healers' which I don't agree with. For example, I play Mercy a lot, and usually have gold healing, but when I play on control maps and we have a Lucio, I usually have silver healing. Most people consider Lucio a 'off healer' but his abilities are so strong on control maps that--in my experience at least--Lucio can consistently outperform a Mercy.

I think that it's a similar situation with Ana. Ana is not a 'main healer' and shouldn't be regarded as one, instead she should be thought of as a 'tank healer' which is best suited for slow moving high-health pool team compositions which play well with her kit. Moira can perform the same role as Ana, but only to a certain extent. As sooner or later, Moira will have to stop healing in order to recharge her healing resource. The only reason Ana ever has to stop is to reload.

I know it's probably not what many people want to hear, but come on. It's basically an accepted fact that you don't play Zenyatta without another healer on the team, so why isn't it an accepted fact that you shouldn't play Ana without a high-damage, low-mobility team composition?

Different heroes are designed to work in different ways.


Except even there she is STILL outclassed by Moira and Mercy; they both live longer and have more utility.

Moira can AOE heal for 80 hps; not counting her Biotic orb
Mercy (If protected) can bring back someone (Ever kill a 900 hp Roadhog for him to come back the moment he drops? :/ Not fun)

Think of this too;

A rocket hits you for 120 damage

As Moira, you can attack people to heal that back up which ALSO refuels your healing OR toss out an Orb that has 300 health that can heal people 5 metres away from it and isn't blocked by anything other than the map; You can get back to 200/200 easily and without another support

As Mercy, you stay out of line of sight for 1 seconds so your passive kicks in; You can get back to 200/200 without another support

As Lucio you swap to your healing aura; it heals the team around you as well. You can get back to 200/200 without another support

As Zen you stay out of line of sight for 3 seconds, 150 of your health is shields. You can get back to 200/200 without another support UNLESS you dropped under 50 health

As Ana you can throw your Grenade, which is a 10 second cooldown, at the ground. It can be blocked by barriers, deleted by D.va, or deflected by Genji. Your team loses the value of the strength of the ability, unless they are standing within 5 metres of you. You CANNOT get back to 200/200 without another support, leaving to find a health pack, or taking focus/ resources from your other support.

Why would you bring Ana to a team that has a Zen or a Mercy; who don't NEED eachother to keep topped up at all times. They CAN, but it's way easier on them.
01/26/2018 07:29 AMPosted by QuizzyBunny
I see it all the time: "Nerf Mercy so Ana can be played again!", although I think a lot of the people saying that never play Ana and only really uses that argument because it sounds better than "Mercy is OP and I hate her".

IF Mercy is nerfed to the point of being non-viable, I promise many of these people will not campaign for Ana to become more viable (I think it more likely they will use her again when demanding nerfs to Moira... don't pretend it won't happen, we can already see the threads popping up).


I'm just going to quote myself from before the Mercy-nerf so I can say "I told you so!"... I told you so! ;)
Ana struggles against genji/winston/dva. Winston blocks everything, dva eats everything genji just jumps on you with blade and even the best anas in the world can't consistently sleep a blading genji.

She struggles against dive way too much, look at zen with no mobility but still good against dive and with dive. Unlike ana zen has a higher dmg than her so he can deal with tanks a bit better, he can transe the blade and his healing cannot be eaten or blocked by winston/dva.

So yeah you're right, Moira isn't her issue, it's just dive. And currently triple/quad tank exist because of Moira, Ana can't sustain it as well anymore. If Moira didn't exist, triple tank wouldn't exist currently either.

Honestly at this point I personally don't even know what to think I always believed her to be balanced before mercy 2.0 and Moira but now... Ana isn't as good in dive as zen/lucio or even mercy with pharah, and she isn't as good in triple tank as Moira/lucio, so where the heck do you take her. In my opinion when all the other supports have a place to be used, obviously the issue isn't that the other supports are OP, it's just that they are better suited for the job and can do it better than ana.
02/18/2018 12:31 PMPosted by VMajoris
Just wanted to point this out because it’s really important to stress that blaming other healers for Ana’s poor state right now isn’t the right way to approach the problem.

Using Moira as a scapegoat, and all the healers for that matter, to explain why Ana is in a bad state right now is going to result in some unwanted consequences if this keeps up. Nerfing the other supports to make Ana on par with them isn’t the solution.

I, as much as the next person, wholeheartedly agree that Ana needs help, but not at the cost of nerfing other supports.


Moira might be meta, but Mercy is still viable. People forget that Ana was unviable after the nerf. They blamed it on the damage nerf. Then they blamed it on the Mercy buff. Then they blamed it on moira.

No...

Her healing average is on par with offhealers (actually lower than Lucio). Her K/D ratio is below average for off supports (look at zen and lucio stats if you don't believe me. It's not due to her skillcap. The numbers don't fluctuate that much between ranks, honestly. The stats generally stay near each other if you're in the rank you belong in. Ana just needs improvement.
The thing I see on why Ana is in such a bad position is that compared to other healers except Zenyatta is that they have no real mobility to evade a dive. Mercy can atleast ask a person to peek, Lucio can just wallride and/or speed away (may or may not need the boost), and Moira can just dash away. You know, its not a bad idea if Ana had a grappling hook or atleast an extra charge on sleep dart or if sleep dart was hitscan instead of projectile.
Well first off I disagree with the title. If you have two options for a healer, and one of them is better than the other, wouldn't you say that one is the reason for the other's lack of being picked? It's still not necessarily entirely Moira's fault though. Rather it's a meta that allows one to shine and the other to rot.

Moira took Ana's tank healing niche. Moira can heal beefy tanks far easier than Ana can - perhaps even better than she ever could. I have a feeling that if we transported Moira in her current state back to season 3, Ana would have been used a lot less. Moira can also 1v1 flankers much easier and with much less risk than Ana can. For this reason I don't think that it's entirely Ana's problem. All of these reasons, and especially how Moira is much better at dealing with dive (another prominent meta), has allowed Moira to eclipse Ana.

To elaborate on Dive, the two most powerful tanks, Winston and Dva, hard counter Ana. Moira can handle them both quite well because fade is roughly on the same cooldown as leap and boosters, so she can consistently stay out of their range.

TLDR: It is Moira's fault to a certain extent (in regards to why Ana isn't picked for multiple tank meta). But, more importantly, it is Dva and Winston's fault. They're consistently the best tanks in higher elos and they crush her with dive.
02/18/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Swalsh
Ana has the lowest WR on PS4/XB because she takes aim to heal.
You know who also has the lowest WRs on XB/PS4?
WM and Hanzo

i main ana on console, sure im not the best but i know how to play her.
she has been a lot easier to play since she got friendly aim assist
It's also the excessive amount of barriers in this game.
But then having better supports than Ana certainly doesn't help.
Especially one that throws orbs around that wake up sleeping Nano blade Genjis.

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