If these Sombra changes goes live, I quit OW!

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02/15/2018 06:14 AMPosted by jasonwocky

This is a dumb change. Anybody who thinks this is the right rework for Sombra clearly hasn't paid any attention to Blizzard's "Rework" track record. Literally every time they've either made the hero a must-pick or reduced them to rubble. No in-betweens.


Funny, I'd say the same about the OW community. Just black and white thinking, no in-betweens. But considering you're just talking about substantial hero reworks (which aren't that many) let's get some facts:
-) D.VA micro missile rework, she was very viable before and remained that way
-) Lucio rework, upped his skill-ceiling, didn't change his viability
-) Symmetra rework, made her more versatile, but still remains niche
-) Bastion rework, made our robot friend more versatile, but still remains niche
(yeah Bastion WAS OP, but I'm not counting those literal 3 days)

Neither of those 4 heroes became a must-pick or got reduced to rubble. Then there's only the Hog and Mercy rework left, which they admittedly messed up initially. But that's not too bad of an overall track record in regards to reworks I'd say.

And no, I won't downvote you, because no one knows how good Sombra will actually be after some testing, you might be right, you might not be. I personally disagree that she will be a must pick (unless they really go through with "Opportunist" like this).
02/15/2018 06:38 AMPosted by Noble6
02/15/2018 06:14 AMPosted by jasonwocky

This is a dumb change. Anybody who thinks this is the right rework for Sombra clearly hasn't paid any attention to Blizzard's "Rework" track record. Literally every time they've either made the hero a must-pick or reduced them to rubble. No in-betweens.


Funny, I'd say the same about the OW community. Just black and white thinking, no in-betweens. But considering you're just talking about substantial hero reworks (which aren't that many) let's get some facts:
-) D.VA micro missile rework, she was very viable before and remained that way

Must-pick before, must-pick after. But she's had other reworks as well that dumpstered her.
-) Lucio rework, upped his skill-ceiling, didn't change his viability

I was wrong. This one was good.
-) Symmetra rework, made her more versatile, but still remains niche

Rubble before, rubble after.
-) Bastion rework, made our robot friend more versatile, but still remains niche
(yeah Bastion WAS OP, but I'm not counting those literal 3 days)

I was counting those 3 days. Just because they actually fixed something quickly for once doesn't erase the fact that they got it totally wrong.
@ jasonwocky
I think you misunderstand me (or I didn't express myself well enough). I took issue with saying CHANGING a hero to BECOME either too good or too bad AFTERWARDS. They didn't mess many heroes up worse than where they already were, and even if not substantially, still improved them.

D.VA remained very good, they didn't mess her up or made her even better, but made her Defense Matrix less obnoxious, which was their intention.

Sym remains too niche, but was still improved.

And I disagree that those 2 are either must picks or completely unusable at most levels of play. Talking about really high elo/pros, maybe with D.VA (sure thing with Sym). But the reason they took so long for Sym esp. is that she's actually pretty decent in lower to mid ranks. And I can't really remember when D.VA was "dumpstered". She always had a high pick rate in any tournament afaik (unless you mean launch-D.VA, then yeah).

...and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree whether those 3 days for Bastion matter, but sure, it was 72 hours of omnic crisis 2.0. But if they went back on every bad decision that fast, I don't think anyone would mind them messing anything up. Which is my main issue with the Mercy and Hog rework, them taking so long.

All these reworks didn't ruin anything is my main point. But we could argue endlessly how (not) viable some of these heroes are afterwards I guess.
02/15/2018 06:14 AMPosted by jasonwocky
Look at the characters actually affected by the passive hack change: Mercy, Lucio, Pharah, Hanzo, Genji. Aside from Genji (which is arguable but whatever) are you seriously telling me that these characters needed explicit direct nerfs?


I guess what I was saying is that the characters most complained about right now are Tracer, Gengi, and D.Va. Moira too, but Sombra's change won't really affect her spot.

Tracer and D.Va are already countered by Sombra, but Sombra isn't really played enough to make an impact. Gengi, yeah he did need to be counterable by Sombra.

By making Sombra a strong hero (even if it is short lived), they will get more people using her. Even if they nerf her in a small way after a few weeks she'll still have a bigger player base than she does now. Just by having her around you'll give some of the most complained about heroes a bit more trouble. It should affect the meta which is what people want.

I am a bit scared for Pharah and Mercy, but then again people do also complain about Pharmercy. I think the Lucio changes are over the top and way too severe for him. I don't think it will affect Hanzo as much.

All that said, this is a shake up the meta move. And I think that is Blizzard's intention. And if they don't make Sombra strong enough, it won't work. They risk making her too strong, but if the changes were more like Mei's then it wouldn't do much at all.
02/15/2018 03:49 AMPosted by Noble6
02/15/2018 03:23 AMPosted by AtomicTom

Calling the designers incompetent is putting it politely, if 2xConcussion Mine Junkrat and half a year of Mercy meta didn't call their competence into question for you I really wonder what they'd have to do to shake your faith in them.

OW designers in a nut shell,

"Here's Junkrat, a situational tournament pick on narrow maps that we'd like to buff, give him 2 Concussion Mines and make him an S Tier character! Here's Mei, a situational tournament pick on narrow maps that we'd like to buff, eh give her a little more ammo ... are we doing it right guys ... guys ???"


A few things. First off, confirmation bias. Just because there's always 1-2 unbalanced heroes (because balancing games is actually hard and time consuming) doesn't mean that the vast majority of heroes isn't in a good place, because I think they are. It's easy to say someone sucks at their job if you just look at the examples where they !@#$ up.

And about Mercy specifically, there's a far more charitable interpretation for why they took so long with her. I mean they take long with balance of any hero, to see how the players react. But Mercy is THE most played hero by far. I can understand that they'd want to be careful to not ruin her. And it's not like they didn't nerf her several times, it was just never enough. This is why I DO think it's insulting to suggest they don't know what they're doing (or don't listen to the community, wich is also a popular thing to say).

I think the biggest criticism you can have for the dev team is that they sometimes take too long to adjust obvious problematic heroes, but acting like they suck at their job... yeah no.
Also, given how unbelievably complex of a game OW is, I don't think most studios could do better. I certainly don't think the OW team is above criticism, it's just that most criticism I read of them on forums is terrible.


It's not confirmation bias, the designers were warned on PTR that Ressurrect was busted and they didn't listen until they "collected data" on Ressurrect after release, having been on the design/balance team of a number of games in my life time I can tell you Blizzard is no where near as good at balancing games as they are at designing them. Overwatch isn't that complicated compared to a lot of other genres with more complex interactions and less clear conceptions of "fairness."

.
Okay, -1 person who can't stand having a counter. Bye!
02/15/2018 07:21 AMPosted by AtomicTom

It's not confirmation bias, the designers were warned on PTR that Ressurrect was busted and they didn't listen until they "collected data" on Ressurrect after release, having been on the design/balance team of a number of games in my life time I can tell you Blizzard is no where near as good at balancing games as they are at designing them. Overwatch isn't that complicated compared to a lot of other genres with more complex interactions and less clear conceptions of "fairness."

.


Well if you really are a game designer then you probably do know your stuff better than I do, I have to admit I'm only really interested in the subject.

However, my opinion remains that everyone always acts like they only ever !@#$ things up around here, which I don't think is fair. Also, I'd say the forums are mostly unusable as a feedback source, because even if people were telling them that Rez was OP, everyone is always screaming 1000 opinions in every direction at once and then there's always a group upset that they didn't listen to THEM. It's much more damning that the pros were probably unanimously saying the same thing about Rez tho.

One thing I'm curious about though: In Overwatch, a game without classes but 25+ completely unique heroes, that isn't super hard to balance? What games are even harder to balance? Not being smug, legit curious.
02/15/2018 07:34 AMPosted by Noble6
Also, I'd say the forums are mostly unusable as a feedback source, because even if people were telling them that Rez was OP, everyone is always screaming 1000 opinions in every direction at once and then there's always a group upset that they didn't listen to THEM.


I agree with this. I don't know what they have in mind for the forum redesign, but if they were more like Reddit where the popular opinions rise to the top then I think you'd get a better idea of the community's opinion.

In the current system, a vocal minority can just spam opinions and get their posts to stay at the top by getting a heated discussion going which keeps bumping it. It feeds off of disagreement and allows you to bring long dead posts back from the dead.
Just wait for it :)
02/15/2018 01:03 AMPosted by Noble6
Also, calling professional Devs incapable of proper balance is not just insulting on its own, but apart form the occasional 1-2 outlier heroes that will always exist, OW is more balanced right now than it's ever been.

Ok let's think about major changes that blizzard did back in the day.

Season 2. D.Va got buffed so hard that she became the best dps in the game. They not only gave her 100 more health, they also doubled the movementspeed while shoting. And they nerfed her biggest counter Zarya. tripple tank in every game.

Season 3. They changed Roadhog hook and changed weaponspread. Roadhog became a dps flanking maschine! every hooked target was just dead!
D.Va got 200 health instead of armor and her damage got nerfed to the ground. Only playable as a Reinhard with mobility.

Season 4. Bastion damage reduction in turret form made him unkillable. Totally broken.
Roadhogs damage nerfed to the ground -> unplayable for 2 season (6 month). Dive everywhere. Ana got so many nerfs that she becomes the weakest support.

Season 5. Doomfist got released. Way too strong.
Doomfist nerfed to the ground (hitbox nerf).

Season 6. Junkrat overbuffed. Decent pick, got more damage means more ultcharge, more mobility, insane ult.
Mercy rework-> must pick. Best support the game every saw.

Season 7. Mercy still must pick. still dominates everygame.

Season 8. Mercy nerfed to the ground. Weakest support.

Season 9. Inc Sombra dominates every game.

Sure the game is pretty balanced. But it took them month to balance 1 major change. And they overbuff and then overnerf heroes over and over again.
Think of sombra as zenyatta. Her main job is not to do damage, but to help the team do damage.

That is what this patch is doing. She is more if a team fight character, rather than a lone wolf emp not.

Sombra is one of my favorite characters so I'm excited about this. Now people won't throw or get angry when sombra is picked.

It also contains dive characters which was super needed.
02/14/2018 11:03 PMPosted by Lumin
02/14/2018 10:45 PMPosted by ArnAnderson
...
not anymore dude. Torb's turret can be hacked faster. sombra can come in invis hack the turret and wreck havoc to torb.

Also sombra's dps has not changed. she cant kill anyone with heals on them.


Sombra does 160 dps without headshots if she's within 15 meters. That's enough to out damage a healer. It just might not be enough to kill them faster than they kill you.

If she's landing headshots though, her maximum dps is 320. She can probably get close to that on D.Va.


Just out of curiosity, I am wondering what part of my statement the downvoters are disagreeing with. It's just facts about her DPS. You can look them up. Here's a link if you don't believe me. https://overwatch.gamepedia.com/Sombra
02/14/2018 10:16 PMPosted by Dingel
Yeah. Sombra counters D.Va, Tracer and Genji. specially the reduced spray helps to shut them down. But she have been good against them before.
But what counters Sombra?

The new Sombra counters every hero in the game. A good Sombra destroys your entire team.


I'd say Junkrat counters her as he never has to be in her line of sight to kill her.
If he can trap her I dont think she can trans out??

Besides that a lot of chars can probably make her trans away(Not kill her so not really a counter), like Winston.

She has to be in line of sight to start hack, but now they made it so it keeps working around corners like Mercy and Sym's beams, and no one complains about that stuff.... right?

I wonder how the spread reduction will play out though? She could already one clip DVA out of mech from a decent range, now she will do it from even farther(Out of DVA's damaging range) all while the DVA is hacked and useless, lol.

Its my fault though, I enjoy playing DVA and Lucio so Blizz had to nerf my crazy skills;)
bye felicia
02/15/2018 10:13 AMPosted by Dingel
Ok let's think about major changes that blizzard did back in the day.

Season 2. D.Va got buffed so hard that she became the best dps in the game. They not only gave her 100 more health, they also doubled the movementspeed while shoting. And they nerfed her biggest counter Zarya. tripple tank in every game.

Season 3. They changed Roadhog hook and changed weaponspread. Roadhog became a dps flanking maschine! every hooked target was just dead!
D.Va got 200 health instead of armor and her damage got nerfed to the ground. Only playable as a Reinhard with mobility.

Season 4. Bastion damage reduction in turret form made him unkillable. Totally broken.
Roadhogs damage nerfed to the ground -> unplayable for 2 season (6 month). Dive everywhere. Ana got so many nerfs that she becomes the weakest support.

Season 5. Doomfist got released. Way too strong.
Doomfist nerfed to the ground (hitbox nerf).

Season 6. Junkrat overbuffed. Decent pick, got more damage means more ultcharge, more mobility, insane ult.
Mercy rework-> must pick. Best support the game every saw.

Season 7. Mercy still must pick. still dominates everygame.

Season 8. Mercy nerfed to the ground. Weakest support.

Season 9. Inc Sombra dominates every game.

Sure the game is pretty balanced. But it took them month to balance 1 major change. And they overbuff and then overnerf heroes over and over again.


Ok, so I could debate some of these things, but that's not really my point. All I wanted to say to people here, was that I take issue with saying that the devs only ever mess up, while ignoring all the dozens of balance changes that went very right. I could now go through an OW wiki and make an exhaustive list with every change that was alright. That's what I mean with confirmation bias, you just listed many of the things that ever went wrong with the game. It's easy to only ever see the negative and act like the devs are completely incompetent, which is what some people are clearly thinking, and it's just unfair imo.

And the thing about the forums is, it's also easy to say the devs don't listen to YOUR clear warnings about balance, when like 50 % of people say the exact opposite, that's how this forum usually looks. Should the devs be better at knowing what the proper way to balance is and filter opinions for themselves? Sometimes, maybe, but that doesn't mean that the forums aren't inherently hard to use as a feedback source. And it's ridiculous when people pull the whole "You didn't listen to what WE were saying!" when theres an equally large group of people (or at least a lot of others) who do the exact same but have another opinion. I mean, just look at this very thread about what people think of Sombra's balance.

TL;DR: Be a little more charitable to the people working on this game, and if you want your feedback to be heard, don't call them incompetent or bad at their job in the same paragraph. It's an inherently bad way to give feedback and does the exact opposite of what you want to achieve.
@Noble.
I clearly understand that people are excited about these sombra changes, because Sombra was never in this position where people be like: hey can we get Sombra.

But these changes/buffs are too much.

Sombra now hard counters every tank and every support in the game.

She not only counters most picked heroes, like Genji, Tracer, D.Va, Zenyatta. She also counters low tier heroes like Symmetra, Torbjörn, Reinhardt, Reaper, Phara, Bastion, Doomfist, Widow, Lucio, Orisa)

Think about it.
She can shut down 12 + 1 ults by using emp or hack. (Reaper, Roadhog, McCree, Phara, Reinhardt, Lucio, Orisa, Moira, Mei, Junkrat, Hanzo, mini D.Va, Symmetra)
And disturb many other ults like (Genji, Winston, Torbjörn, Bastion, Mercy)
The only ults she has not really impact on (Doomfist, Zenyatta, Widow, Ana, Sombra, Tracer, Zarya, D.Va, Soldier)

The reason why she is not in the current meta is her leak on damage. She has no burst damage and is not good in getting picks on. The only we to make her viable is abusing emp. Her hack is rarely used to actually hack enemys cause it not really easy and emp does the same. So instead of hacking someone I just charge emp and use it.
02/14/2018 11:07 PMPosted by SquidKD
You could always just not pick the heroes with passives that are disabled by hack.

I'll still 1v1 her as Mercy.
Passive be damned :)
02/14/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Dingel
I like Sombra and I like her new playstyle. I also played for over 5h as she got accidentally changed on live and enjoyed it.

Less spread of her gun is needed. to make her more to a dps.

But all these changes to her hack. That's not balanced. Her hack is f****ing OP now. And shows us again that Blizzard is unable to balance the heroes in the game.

Sombra will be might be the next must-pick.

And everyone who thinks Sombra didn't got overbuffed has no idea about the game.


you remind of myself, a junkrat player, saying 2 mines for junkrat would be very OP. Ppl downvoted me to oblivion, saying junkrat was F tier, and bla bla bla...
02/16/2018 01:52 AMPosted by ShivanDragon
02/14/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Dingel
I like Sombra and I like her new playstyle. I also played for over 5h as she got accidentally changed on live and enjoyed it.

Less spread of her gun is needed. to make her more to a dps.

But all these changes to her hack. That's not balanced. Her hack is f****ing OP now. And shows us again that Blizzard is unable to balance the heroes in the game.

Sombra will be might be the next must-pick.

And everyone who thinks Sombra didn't got overbuffed has no idea about the game.


you remind of myself, a junkrat player, saying 2 mines for junkrat would be very OP. Ppl downvoted me to oblivion, saying junkrat was F tier, and bla bla bla...

So did I. I mean there was no question the tire was broken. And double mine was to easy to get value of.

Now he is fine. Tire got nerfed and mine damage falloff.
I don't think why heroes has to be buffed to the top of the pickrate.

I mean this forum is just full of idiots, still thinking junkrat is underpowered.
Everyone cried after the mercy rework go announced. but she was fing op. then she got nerfed on ptr everyone cried again. Then she got nerfed on live again, everyone cried. still being op. now she got nerfed again. and now every wants moira to be nerfed. LUL

Sombra is on the same level of viability as Mei. They have no burst damage, only 1 damage source, no ult or ability damage. They are related on good teamplay and good 2nd dps to win the game and good ability useage.

And now compare both changes. They buff Sombra to the top and not on the same level like soldier.
02/14/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Dingel
I like Sombra and I like her new playstyle. I also played for over 5h as she got accidentally changed on live and enjoyed it.

Less spread of her gun is needed. to make her more to a dps.

But all these changes to her hack. That's not balanced. Her hack is f****ing OP now. And shows us again that Blizzard is unable to balance the heroes in the game.

Sombra will be might be the next must-pick.

And everyone who thinks Sombra didn't got overbuffed has no idea about the game.


You main her hardest counter. What are you going on about dude?...

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