D-Va Moira problem

Competitive Discussion
Just another game - as soon as the other team realized we had a Moira they switched to D-Va -> gg, no more Orbs, have to switch off Moira.
This needs fixing.

Putting this here before people repeat their chants:
The "just a counter" counter-argument here is that D-Va is in almost any matchup and hence Moira gets too pushed much into a niche. It's boring. Her kit isn't the one of a specialist such as Bastion, it's a waste of a good all-round hero in her case.
im sorry what needs fixing? the fact that a character in a game based around countering characters, has a counter?
It’s called a counter
02/17/2018 12:08 AMPosted by monkaTHINK
im sorry what needs fixing? the fact that a character in a game based around countering characters, has a counter?

That D-Va is in almost any matchup and hence Moira gets too pushed much into a niche. It's boring. Her kit isn't the one of a specialist such as Bastion, it's a waste of a good all-round hero in her case.
Wow, players actually swap heroes to counter other heroes in your games? Lucky.
Dva getting changed around a bit sure, but your reasoning is faulty at best. you cant argue that it makes moira more niche, what it does is make moira have a counter which is important for a game built around hero swapping to counter the enemy team's picks
02/17/2018 12:11 AMPosted by monkaTHINK
Dva getting changed around a bit sure, but your reasoning is faulty at best. you cant argue that it makes moira more niche, what it does is make moira have a counter which is important for a game built around hero swapping to counter the enemy team's picks

Then what is the hard counter to S76, Tracer, D-Va, Mei or Genji that forces them to switch to another hero? Please.
02/17/2018 12:09 AMPosted by XRed
it's a waste of a good all-round hero in her case.


first off this is wrong, she is not good all-round. she has strong maps and she has weak maps. on maps she is strong on that means enclosed spaces good places to bounce her orbs off of.
anything with wide open areas you run into an issue with her.
then there is the fact that she doesnt work amazing with every comp, she is good but she isnt op always. she is amazing for quad tank but that doesnt mean quad tank is the only comp, it will probably be the meta but beyond these weird comps built around her she isnt "good all round" she was made niche, you cant complain about her continuing to be niche
Then what is the counter to S76, Tracer, D-Va, Winston or Genji that forces them to switch to another hero? Please.


S76: dva, anything that can push him out of position, sombra makes him useless for a bit
Tracer: people actually talk about how tracer doesnt fully have a counter so you got me there, but a soft counter is McCree flashbang headshot and kinda winston cuz winston does well with flankers
Dva: dva you can shred thru her with reaper or bastion honestly any amount of focus fire you can usually shred thru her pretty easily.
Winston: well with dive not being the meta anymore i doubt you will be seeing him often, but Hog is considered a counter to him. hog does insanely high burst damage and can pull him out of position with hook. or reaper tears thru him
Genji: winston deals with squishies like him really easily, especially cuz winston specializes with flankers or snipers.
02/17/2018 12:19 AMPosted by monkaTHINK
Then what is the counter to S76, Tracer, D-Va, Winston or Genji that forces them to switch to another hero? Please.


S76: dva, anything that can push him out of position, sombra makes him useless for a bit
Tracer: people actually talk about how tracer doesnt fully have a counter so you got me there, but a soft counter is McCree flashbang headshot and kinda winston cuz winston does well with flankers
Dva: dva you can shred thru her with reaper or bastion honestly any amount of focus fire you can usually shred thru her pretty easily.
Winston: well with dive not being the meta anymore i doubt you will be seeing him often, but Hog is considered a counter to him. hog does insanely high burst damage and can pull him out of position with hook. or reaper tears thru him
Genji: winston deals with squishies like him really easily, especially cuz winston specializes with flankers or snipers.

Admitted, while Winston does counter Genji, nothing of this seems as bad though as neutralizing Moira's E-abilities with the in comparison low effort required. :/

Well, at the end of the day we will see how Blizzard handles it, as we've seen on similar discussions in the past.. downvotes by "forum masses" have fortunately proven to be no reliable indicator in the past.
02/17/2018 12:26 AMPosted by XRed
Admitted, while Winston does counter Genji, nothing of this seems as bad though as neutralizing Moira's E-abilities with the in comparison low effort required. :/


Dva presses right click and neutralizes alot of ults, winston doesnt have to aim and honestly neither does reaper. all sombra needs to do is press right click to hack them for a bit, or build ult really easily (tho with the changes on ptr we might see that take a bit longer) and press q
Doesn't need fixing at all. I play both a lot and Moira needs a counter, she has one and that is D'va.
Winston is also a pretty hard counter to Ana with his shield bubble blocking healing. Or I guess Dva blocking Ana healing. But since completely negating Ana is OK, I don't think just negating E skills on Moira is a problem.
02/17/2018 12:15 AMPosted by monkaTHINK
02/17/2018 12:09 AMPosted by XRed
it's a waste of a good all-round hero in her case.


first off this is wrong, she is not good all-round. she has strong maps and she has weak maps. on maps she is strong on that means enclosed spaces good places to bounce her orbs off of.
anything with wide open areas you run into an issue with her.
then there is the fact that she doesnt work amazing with every comp, she is good but she isnt op always. she is amazing for quad tank but that doesnt mean quad tank is the only comp, it will probably be the meta but beyond these weird comps built around her she isnt "good all round" she was made niche, you cant complain about her continuing to be niche


This isn't true, Moira benefits from enclosed spaces and death balls but she's not reliant on them, with Mercy being "nerfed into the ground," Lucio being "under powered" and Ana being "out of the meta" you can play Moira in any team composition because of her DPS/flanking potential and just single, concentrated healing on one or two targets. I'd bet money that after the Sombra changes, you'll see a lot of Winston, D.va, Tracer, Sombra, Moira, Lucio compositions, her only "real" problem was not being able to heal a Genji or Pharah and now that the off DPS in Dive doesn't have to jump around like a jack rabbit and/or can add healing to the team you should really prepare yourself to see Moira in every comp on every map.

Regarding Defense Matrix, D.va is no more of a counter to Moira and Biotic Orb than Moira and RMB is a counter to D.va, you just have to get into the habbit of not throwing out the damage orb at long range vs a Defense Matrix or throwing out the healing orb more since the healing orb immediately begins to heal you and your team while the damage orb has travel time before it damages your enemy. It's also quite easy to ask your D.va (because she's in every match right?) to bait out their D.va's DM with Micro Missiles.
You can still play moira just have someone help you out with dva by going zarya...or hog
We need a counter to counter the counter
02/17/2018 12:02 AMPosted by XRed
Just another game - as soon as the other team realized we had a Moira they switched to D-Va -> gg, no more Orbs, have to switch off Moira.
This needs fixing.


This is one of the things that really ticks me off about skill rating in this game.

You are almost a thousand points higher than me. You need to learn how to take down a D.Va as Moira. It's not that hard.

First of all, stop fighting her alone. Stay near your team. Don't fade into a fight with her, wait til she fires her missiles and fade away to a safe distance where you can leech her mech dry and her guns are useless against you. Try putting a tank between you and her. You can walk faster than she can. If you're running away and she's chasing you down and killing you, you're obviously not running into territory your allies are controlling because she's not getting murdered by your 76 and Rein.

Throw gold orbs at the nearest DPS on your side, and follow them around. Use lampposts and walls to shield yourself. When you get her out of her mech, then throw the purple ball.

If D.Va is enough to get you to switch off Moira you should probably stop playing Moira. At least until you figure this out. She's not a counter to 76 either. At least not after her two seconds of defense matrix are used up.
02/17/2018 07:41 PMPosted by ShiroKabocha
02/17/2018 12:02 AMPosted by XRed
Just another game - as soon as the other team realized we had a Moira they switched to D-Va -> gg, no more Orbs, have to switch off Moira.
This needs fixing.


This is one of the things that really ticks me off about skill rating in this game.

You are almost a thousand points higher than me. You need to learn how to take down a D.Va as Moira. It's not that hard.

First of all, stop fighting her alone. Stay near your team. Don't fade into a fight with her, wait til she fires her missiles and fade away to a safe distance where you can leech her mech dry and her guns are useless against you. Try putting a tank between you and her. You can walk faster than she can. If you're running away and she's chasing you down and killing you, you're obviously not running into territory your allies are controlling because she's not getting murdered by your 76 and Rein.

Throw gold orbs at the nearest DPS on your side, and follow them around. Use lampposts and walls to shield yourself. When you get her out of her mech, then throw the purple ball.

If D.Va is enough to get you to switch off Moira you should probably stop playing Moira. At least until you figure this out. She's not a counter to 76 either. At least not after her two seconds of defense matrix are used up.


I'm going to go thru this point by point.

SR DIFFERENCE: if someone is almost 1000 points higher than you im going to assume there are other reasons that they are higher than just playing moira. Mechanical skill could be better as well as other game sense, you dont know how they play barring this one snippet of time and with a new character there will be a period of adjustment for all players.

Moira vs Dva matchup: Dva is a counter to moira plain and simple. she nullifies most of what moira can do, yes focus on healing vs damage in this case but because of the hard counter that dva is, you still wont be having much worth and should switch off.

76 Counter: Dva is used as a counter to most hitscan heros, especially their ult, if they can nullify any amount of time of an ult or anything similar it is valuable tile for people to focus the ulting character, be that 76 or McCree or bastion in turret. Dva is valuable as a counter for many things.

Dva is enough to get someone to switch off of moira as Dva is a good counter to her, switching to a different healer here is the most efficient and effective thing to do.
Put D.Va and Moira at the same distance and see which does more damage. An orb picking off a decent chunk of health from squishies or tickle damage that does like 5 damage and then try to make your case about how D.Va is the one that is the problem.

She's a tank. Tanks protect their team mates. Eating an orb to prevent damage is kind of her role. Just sayin'
02/17/2018 08:09 PMPosted by monkaTHINK
02/17/2018 07:41 PMPosted by ShiroKabocha
...

This is one of the things that really ticks me off about skill rating in this game.

You are almost a thousand points higher than me. You need to learn how to take down a D.Va as Moira. It's not that hard.

First of all, stop fighting her alone. Stay near your team. Don't fade into a fight with her, wait til she fires her missiles and fade away to a safe distance where you can leech her mech dry and her guns are useless against you. Try putting a tank between you and her. You can walk faster than she can. If you're running away and she's chasing you down and killing you, you're obviously not running into territory your allies are controlling because she's not getting murdered by your 76 and Rein.

Throw gold orbs at the nearest DPS on your side, and follow them around. Use lampposts and walls to shield yourself. When you get her out of her mech, then throw the purple ball.

If D.Va is enough to get you to switch off Moira you should probably stop playing Moira. At least until you figure this out. She's not a counter to 76 either. At least not after her two seconds of defense matrix are used up.


I'm going to go thru this point by point.

SR DIFFERENCE: if someone is almost 1000 points higher than you im going to assume there are other reasons that they are higher than just playing moira. Mechanical skill could be better as well as other game sense, you dont know how they play barring this one snippet of time and with a new character there will be a period of adjustment for all players.

Moira vs Dva matchup: Dva is a counter to moira plain and simple. she nullifies most of what moira can do, yes focus on healing vs damage in this case but because of the hard counter that dva is, you still wont be having much worth and should switch off.

76 Counter: Dva is used as a counter to most hitscan heros, especially their ult, if they can nullify any amount of time of an ult or anything similar it is valuable tile for people to focus the ulting character, be that 76 or McCree or bastion in turret. Dva is valuable as a counter for many things.

Dva is enough to get someone to switch off of moira as Dva is a good counter to her, switching to a different healer here is the most efficient and effective thing to do.


You are right.. I don't know this person and I don't know exactly how they play. But I do know that they have way less time on both Moira and D.va than I do; and I can see from overbuff by their high deaths and objective time that they don't know when to unass the point and back up. I can also see that they favor damage over healing and probably throw more purple orbs than gold ones in general.

I also know that it's tempting as a Moira player to go for all the medals, and that lots and lots of crappy Moiras play as the third or fourth DPS and don't focus healing on the allies that need it (usually the tanks). They chase down tanks and try to get kills when they should be supporting the heroes specialized for that purpose, like Tracer. It's one of the things that really frustrate me when some hack instalocks her and, as she would say, makes a dog's breakfast of playing her.

And finally, I also know from experience playing lots and lots of both Moira and D.va (which again, the stats tell me is something that you also do not do) that D.va is not a strong counter to Moira in a typical comp match. Yes, if you lock the two of them in a room together, Moira will not do well. Yes, if you look at their stats on the OW Wiki it's difficult to see how D.Va cannot win a duel. But unless all ten of the other heroes are respawning and you're fighting over the a control point, a 1v1 is almost always a bad idea.

This is a thread complaining about an imbalance between Moira and D.va created by a player who hardly plays either of those heroes, and while you totally have a point that I'm not in gold... I do have the internet, and I can watch players all the way from bronze to OWL demonstrating the same principles I tried to explain here.

I also offered a lot of specific practical advice on how XRed can better compete against D.Va, and the two of you should at least go give it a try in QP before telling me that it doesn't work.

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