" you are at the SR you belong" fallacy

Competitive Discussion
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02/18/2018 11:27 AMPosted by TurningDrop
So if you have 0 experience with a multiplayer shooter on pc then you should automatically be at gold or whatever. That's what bronze is, the bottom for people who have no experience and are trying to develop that experience. Play a game like osu! and see how well you do on the maps that aren't even that difficult for experienced players. Everyone starts out terrible.


I only said that low gold = mid on skill rating spectrum in OW.

And bronze is not for people who never played an FPS before. It for people who never played anything before.
TL;DR


I only said that low gold = mid skill rating in OW.

And bronze is not for people who never played an FPS before. It for people who never played anything before.


I wouldn't say low gold is mid skill rating.

When you first start an OW account, the MMR sets you to 2500 at the start, this changes as you play. At level 25 and you do the placement matches, it's not enough time to analyze you so it could go any direction.

With the biases of 2500 default on Overwatch accounts, it's fair to assume that Gold is where the stats are defaulted, and not necessarily direct skill.

Statistically, Bronze requires you to be worse than a newbie.
So the climb is slow not non-existent.. so you have to grind to raise your rank.. crazy so do the rest of us. Except for like gm+ people don't just magically get our ranks. We've put in hundreds of hours each season, grinding our way up. Blizzard will never be able to eliminate the bad luck factors, and there is no possible chance that the frequency is a much as you say it is considering you hold positive win rates on most characters. Grinding is a part of any ranking system. You admit you are not stuck, just that you have to work for it. It may be harder down low as you haven't "made it yet" but you don't just get to make up one day and make it to the top. Keep grinding, work for your rank, and be proud of yourself for overcoming obstacles.

And I have been in your shoes, any look at my profile and it's easy to understand how I would need a Smurf account to practice my dps characters in a competitive setting. Purely solo que this account placed in silver, and stayed there for a week or so. But i was on a consistent grind on that account and got myself up to plat. I got a lot of bad games, but I kept at it. Now that account is close to breaking diamond, though I haven't really touched it in awhile so who knows if it'll ever get out of plat xD nothing comes easy, especially when you have to rely on others and yourself in order to achieve victory. But complaining about a system that requires grinding.. isn't gonna get you anyway. Blizzard knows climbing is a grind.. It's meant to be that way to keep you playing. If you could start in bronze and shoot up to gm within a couple weeks... well where's the continues challenge and fun in that? Most people who reach top 500 stop playing lmao. They play just enough to keep themselves at the top. Imo I'd rather be stuck with loss streaks after every 4th win and be grinding than only playing 5 games a week to keep me from decaying.

I dunno, imo to an extent you deserve your rank. Thought there is roughly a 200-300 error percentile due to bad luck. Sr is your bad luck score if you will, but mmr will keep your Sr relatively close to where you belong.
02/18/2018 10:48 AMPosted by LX2
02/18/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Applesoup
...So, ask yourself, what are you doing that is keeping you at the "SR that you belong."

You do realize that there are "high rank" players right? They don't have the same problems that you have. That's why you hear these responses.

Figure out what they are doing right, what you are doing wrong, and you will climb too!


I’ll tell you what I’ve done. I used to main tank and fill and just kept dropping. Today I played several games autolocking Reaper and already gained 200 SR. I guess I need to be the bad guy and autolock DPS in order to climb.

I’ll post an update on where my rank is at the end of this week.


I've seen a lot of people saying that just getting good at a dps and carrying your team is the best way to climb. I used to play reaper but stopped because I just filled. Though I get gold elims/damage as rein a lot , which is kind of worrying when you have 3 dps
02/18/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Lightwaves
Though I get gold elims/damage as rein a lot , which is kind of worrying


SHIELD UP REINHARDT!!!!!!!!!! Your shield isnt your personal barrier for yourself. Its for your team so they dont die to the bronze team opposite you full of widows and hanzos.
02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves

Following these sayings, I'm the only one responsible for my losses. I cannot blame anyone , because throwers/leavers/ smurfs are not why I lose.


In an individual game you are likely not responsible. But, after playing many games, bad teammates (worse than avg. teammates) and back luck will cancel out with good teammates and good luck. The only factor that will be left is you. Therefore, in an individual game you may not be responsible but on the bigger picture you are solely responsible.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
But you are forgetting that overwatch is a team game. TEAM. Meaning one player cannot be the difference, unless that player is really good. Your rank is more determined by how well your team works together than by your sole performance.


You need to consider the bigger picture.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
How am I at the SR i belong to, when I climb 1k when I'm in a good team and drop down 1k when I solo queue. What's that? The team was carrying? Wait, I thought you sr was solely determined by your skill.... so maybe it isn't after all....


The logic above does not apply if you're grouped with players. Instead, it simply shifts from you to the group itself. The group will determine the SR, instead of you.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves

Are you going to tell me that toxic players/onetricks/throwers/leavers/smurfs are just a product of my imagination? That there's no such thing as bad luck when I play against or with these people 5 times in a row?


There is such things as bad luck. However, good luck will cancel out with the bad luck. The enemy team has the same chance of getting "bad" players as yours. You cannot forget good luck exists.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
Are you going to tell me I belong where I am, when i carry so hard my mouse clicks don't work properly anymore. When i have all my hours on reinhardt and freaking moira when i'm a reaper main?
When I play hours on end trying to get some sens einto people's head until I end up with 5 other people, and we're so good we decide to stick together and win every game?


It's better off not trying to change everyone you meet. That's simply not going to work. You meet 5 people every game, it's seriously not worth the effort. The result is going to be you becoming extremely frustrated, tilted, etc, which will directly affect your performance.

You really want a team, so just find 5 permanent teammates and give it a shot.
It's not easy, but you really can't go into a competitive system and expect it to be easy.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
The sr system SHOULD be an accurate representation of where you belong but it isn't . It's flawed and it's still getting fixed, and we're just talking about the problems we encounter at our rank.


The SR system at this point in time is really good.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
So don't come in those thread, you who only play with you team and never solo queue, saying that "You belong where you are".
Because if we're making a thread about what we notice, about what we think would make our experience better , and if so many people are doing it that it's literally what you see everyday, it means there is an actual problem.


This forum is filled with these types of players. However, this forum is not representative of the overall competitive playerbase.

How do you know every player who says "You belong where you are" is on a team? I believe that, and I only soloqueue.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
And stop thinking bronze/silver players don't know what they're doing. They do. I do. I know my flaws and I know I don't always play well. And when i don't I blame myself, but genuinely, when I have a normal team, I win.


Generally it's bronze/silver players are just worse.

02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
also please, saying that " if you're there you must be doing something wrong" no one is perfect. It's not becaus eyou're doing 1 thign wrong that your a re stuck in bronze. Becaus ethen it would mean everyone above plays perfectly yet are not gm, which makes no sense


Bronze players do a lot of things wrong. You're right.
02/18/2018 12:13 PMPosted by Niryna
With the biases of 2500 default on Overwatch accounts, it's fair to assume that Gold is where the stats are defaulted, and not necessarily direct skill.


Its look like this if you want detailed view.

https://masteroverwatch.com/leaderboards/pc/us

Actually high gold-low plat.
I read it often in this forum, whenever some " low rank" like me posts about how the sr system is screwing us over. "You are at the SR you belong", "Stop blaming others" ,"There's no such thing as bad luck", "Focus on yourself","If you're there you're doing something wrong".

Following these sayings, I'm the only one responsible for my losses. I cannot blame anyone , because throwers/leavers/ smurfs are not why I lose.

But you are forgetting that overwatch is a team game. TEAM. Meaning one player cannot be the difference, unless that player is really good. Your rank is more determined by how well your team works together than by your sole performance.

How am I at the SR i belong to, when I climb 1k when I'm in a good team and drop down 1k when I solo queue. What's that? The team was carrying? Wait, I thought you sr was solely determined by your skill.... so maybe it isn't after all....

Are you going to tell me that toxic players/onetricks/throwers/leavers/smurfs are just a product of my imagination? That there's no such thing as bad luck when I play against or with these people 5 times in a row?

Are you going to tell me I belong where I am, when i carry so hard my mouse clicks don't work properly anymore. When i have all my hours on reinhardt and freaking moira when i'm a reaper main?
When I play hours on end trying to get some sens einto people's head until I end up with 5 other people, and we're so good we decide to stick together and win every game?

The sr system SHOULD be an accurate representation of where you belong but it isn't . It's flawed and it's still getting fixed, and we're just talking about the problems we encounter at our rank.

So don't come in those thread, you who only play with you team and never solo queue, saying that "You belong where you are".
Because if we're making a thread about what we notice, about what we think would make our experience better , and if so many people

also please, saying that " if you're there you must be doing something wrong" no one is perfect. It's not becaus eyou're doing 1 thign wrong that your a re stuck in bronze. Becaus ethen it would mean everyone above plays perfectly yet are not gm, which makes no sense


02/18/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Peng
02/18/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Applesoup
...So, ask yourself, what are you doing that is keeping you at the "SR that you belong."

You do realize that there are "high rank" players right? They don't have the same problems that you have. That's why you hear these responses.

Figure out what they are doing right, what you are doing wrong, and you will climb too!
This is a pretty inaccurate statement.

I have multiple accounts that range from bronze to diamond, and each one of them placed completely different, and climbed completely different. I played all season on this account (that I got on sale for Christmas), and just hit gold yesterday after struggling for 9 hours yesterday while duo queue'd with a Master smurf and he wanted to give up multiple times because we kept getting throwers and trolls that were causing us to lose repeatedly.

On other accounts I place platinum and hit diamond within 48 hours. And then other times I place bronze or silver. It really makes zero sense at all.

https://i.imgur.com/d18fw3i.png

https://i.imgur.com/qbWsxtR.png

This rating system is incredibly flawed, and needs to be completely revamped.


Does it not cross your mind that you played completely different hero pools on each account?
everyone has the same five random people. It's going to take a lot of games for you to get the "average" five people on your team. You must play 250 games maybe before you come to realize your true SR. And that's only solo queueing. If you group, it will take even longer to find out where you belong in "solo queue SR."
02/18/2018 12:41 PMPosted by EvilMercy
02/18/2018 12:13 PMPosted by Niryna
With the biases of 2500 default on Overwatch accounts, it's fair to assume that Gold is where the stats are defaulted, and not necessarily direct skill.


Its look like this if you want detailed view.

https://masteroverwatch.com/leaderboards/pc/us

Actually high gold-low plat.


That is not everyone at all. It will be biased towards high end SR who actually care to look themselves up.
02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
And stop thinking bronze/silver players don't know what they're doing. They do


No, they don't, at all. Even as a meh 3k player from a few seasons back the errors you see anyone under say plat are just glaring break downs in FPS fundamentals. I mean painful, I could have coached/fixed the problems the players are having 15 years ago before Overwatch was even being planned.

It's hard to even explain how poor the fundamentals of FPS gamer are in those lower ranks. They don't look around, they don't preaim, they don't focus fire or notice who is where on the map. They shoot one target for a little bit, then move to another for no reason. They don't group up or play near their/team/cover correctly. I'm only about 1/2 way into the issue and note I have not even touched one Overwatch only game play issue.

once you break into around 3k you start to run into knowing what you should do, but you either screw it up or just can't do it. Like for example I can't just pump rockets into another Pharah floating around in the air with me. I know what I should be doing, when to do it, the angle to take and so on I just can't make the shots yet.
That's 100% different then a Reaper say running up to a door and having his cross hair pointed at the ground vs up and ready to shoot.

The SR system is not perfect but everyone is close to where they should be in game. Anyone who thinks they are playing at or near +1 or +2 tiers higher only needs to record their game play and post it to have that fantasy popped and deflated.
02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
Meaning one player cannot be the difference

Stevo did a bronze - gm run with a 40 win streak and was top gun on 80% of the games with symmetra. One player can make the difference, especially in bronze.
There's no such thing as "I'm so low I cant climb".
There is such thing as "Season is almost over and games are hard".
or "I had a lot of throwers today"
but it cannot be the sole reason.
I stopped playing for 1.5 months and haven't been able to climb back up to where I was because my aim was worse and it's the end of the season. Could a GM player do it? Damn right they could, if I was BETTER I'd be at a better SR.
So buck up and get better, you can get out of bronze there's just answers to situations you aren't seeing. You don't even need good aim. Nobody I play with has good aim. 0 - o
02/18/2018 01:18 PMPosted by LucyIsaKat
02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
Meaning one player cannot be the difference

Stevo did a bronze - gm run with a 40 win streak and was top gun on 80% of the games with symmetra. One player can make the difference, especially in bronze.
There's no such thing as "I'm so low I cant climb".
There is such thing as "Season is almost over and games are hard".
or "I had a lot of throwers today"
but it cannot be the sole reason.
I stopped playing for 1.5 months and haven't been able to climb back up to where I was because my aim was worse and it's the end of the season. Could a GM player do it? Damn right they could, if I was BETTER I'd be at a better SR.
So buck up and get better, you can get out of bronze there's just answers to situations you aren't seeing. You don't even need good aim. Nobody I play with has good aim. 0 - o


Oh gee look another post about exactly what i said should stop being said. But i also said "unless you're really good". If he has the skill of a master player, then he's a smurf and a problem for the ennemy team that probably couldnt do !@#$ about it and got send in the spiral of never ending losses until they stop playing. /clap for "stevo"
The SR system at this point in time is really good.


Not even going to try to argue with you mate, you're not even trying. You're in diamond so I don't expect you to understand

02/18/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Mizzerella
02/18/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Lightwaves
Though I get gold elims/damage as rein a lot , which is kind of worrying


SHIELD UP REINHARDT!!!!!!!!!! Your shield isnt your personal barrier for yourself. Its for your team so they dont die to the bronze team opposite you full of widows and hanzos.


I know, and i said in another post that I shield as much as I can . But when people run past my shield what even is the point of being a shield? When the ennemy is on the point, I shield what i can but if I'm getting fired t from 3 sides, no, I'm not going to shield because why would I? Gettig gold doesnt mean you're not doing your job, it means the dps arent. because I dotn even get that much, usually around 20. When I'm a dps or even moira, I get 30-40
Law of averages applies to literally everything.

Play enough games, there is only 1 constant in every team.

Take responsibility and try to improve round after round, improve your law of average on your own skill, and you will climb.
OP's stats finally available on overbuff at https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/Lightwaves-1712?mode=competitive.

I am afraid those look like solid bronze stats. Accuracy solidly in bottom 1% on most characters, damage and elims in bottom 10% or worse on most characters. Only roadhog and soldier have good stats but they are so much better than the rest it looks like someone else played them.

The only thing you are doing well is staying alive.

So my two tips for you would be firstly to improve your aim. Most easily achieved by changing the mouse sensitivity to somewhere between 3.0 to 4.5 if your mouse dpi is set to 800. It should be a lot easier to hit targets than the default settings.

Second tip would be to get into the action more. The sign that you don't have a lot of damage or elims but are staying alive suggests you are playing too safe. So follow those tanks closely and work with them.
02/18/2018 12:13 PMPosted by Niryna
...

I only said that low gold = mid skill rating in OW.

And bronze is not for people who never played an FPS before. It for people who never played anything before.


I wouldn't say low gold is mid skill rating.

When you first start an OW account, the MMR sets you to 2500 at the start, this changes as you play. At level 25 and you do the placement matches, it's not enough time to analyze you so it could go any direction.

With the biases of 2500 default on Overwatch accounts, it's fair to assume that Gold is where the stats are defaulted, and not necessarily direct skill.

Statistically, Bronze requires you to be worse than a newbie.


That's not even remotely true. By level 10, it knows exactly where you should be. By 25 plus 10 games, it's determined your MMR many times over. Blizzard has admitted this.
02/18/2018 01:18 PMPosted by LucyIsaKat
02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
Meaning one player cannot be the difference

Stevo did a bronze - gm run with a 40 win streak and was top gun on 80% of the games with symmetra. One player can make the difference, especially in bronze.
There's no such thing as "I'm so low I cant climb".
There is such thing as "Season is almost over and games are hard".
or "I had a lot of throwers today"
but it cannot be the sole reason.
I stopped playing for 1.5 months and haven't been able to climb back up to where I was because my aim was worse and it's the end of the season. Could a GM player do it? Damn right they could, if I was BETTER I'd be at a better SR.
So buck up and get better, you can get out of bronze there's just answers to situations you aren't seeing. You don't even need good aim. Nobody I play with has good aim. 0 - o

"Tom Brady walked into a high school football game, and stomped all those players. In order to climb from bronze to silver, you just need to 'git gud' and be the best possible player in the world to move from one tier to the next"

You kidding me with this?
02/18/2018 01:02 PMPosted by DeadLamb
02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
And stop thinking bronze/silver players don't know what they're doing. They do


No, they don't, at all. Even as a meh 3k player from a few seasons back the errors you see anyone under say plat are just glaring break downs in FPS fundamentals. I mean painful, I could have coached/fixed the problems the players are having 15 years ago before Overwatch was even being planned.

It's hard to even explain how poor the fundamentals of FPS gamer are in those lower ranks. They don't look around, they don't preaim, they don't focus fire or notice who is where on the map. They shoot one target for a little bit, then move to another for no reason. They don't group up or play near their/team/cover correctly. I'm only about 1/2 way into the issue and note I have not even touched one Overwatch only game play issue.

once you break into around 3k you start to run into knowing what you should do, but you either screw it up or just can't do it. Like for example I can't just pump rockets into another Pharah floating around in the air with me. I know what I should be doing, when to do it, the angle to take and so on I just can't make the shots yet.
That's 100% different then a Reaper say running up to a door and having his cross hair pointed at the ground vs up and ready to shoot.

The SR system is not perfect but everyone is close to where they should be in game. Anyone who thinks they are playing at or near +1 or +2 tiers higher only needs to record their game play and post it to have that fantasy popped and deflated.


Contrary to what you elitits spew on here, we low level plebs DO know these things and DO do them. Ult combos and all the garbage you mentioned above happen very often. The problem is that most of the playerbase at these ranks are angry, frustrated, and disenfranchised, and so you run into trolls, leavers, thowers, no team players and smurfs.

Try again.

I would love to post a vod for you. Tell me what I did wrong.
Tell me what I did wrong when I show you the vod of a torb sitting in spawn, hammering away.

Tell me what I did wrong when we fail to take the first point, and the Sym plants a teleporter that puts us off the cliff, cursing us out as she does it.

Tell me what I did wrong when the gates open, I'm solo heals as Zen, and our rein charges into six people with my orb on him, dies instantly, and then curses me out for "not enough healing"

Tell me what I did wrong when someone insta locks hanzo and whether he's good or not, it's irrelevant, because seeing his face tilts my team so hard that they just go into cursing each other out mode all game.

Tell me what I did wrong please, when the enemy team tells us to report the troll on their team, the game ends, and that problem player ends up ON MY TEAM THE VERY NEXT GAME.

Please, tell me.
02/18/2018 11:18 AMPosted by EvilMercy
There is no excuse to be in bronze. Any bronze match can be solo carried by low gold player; and low gold is average skill level at best.


02/18/2018 10:22 AMPosted by Applesoup
02/18/2018 10:17 AMPosted by Lightwaves
They probably play in teams, and I'm pretty sure you don't get that many smurfs in high rank because how do you smurf in high rank? I'm pretty sure there's way less trolls as well, and people in your team know how to play which I'm pretty sure contributes a lot. Also communications is probably there too, unlike here where it seems to have gone on a forever vacation
Many players have gone from low ranks to high ranks playing solo queue. In fact, most players at the higher ranks started at lower ranks.

Point being, the system isn't keeping everyone down. Many players rank higher. That's why you get so many responses saying, "you're just at the rank that you belong at."

If you want to improve, there are many things you can do. I won't get into them, but I will tell you that if you improve, you will rank up.


02/18/2018 11:33 AMPosted by TurningDrop
You can't control your teammates or your enemies. So work on what you can change, yourself. See what you are doing wrong adjust so you stop making those mistakes and improve from there.


All nonsense. All of it.

Trolls, throwers, leavers and smurfs plague this game. A game that is HEAVILY reliant on team synergy. Unless you elitists can walk into a game solo, and take on six people, kill them, and live to tell about it, stop talking.

Overwatch is a team game.

And one person cannot do it all, period.

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