" you are at the SR you belong" fallacy

Competitive Discussion
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02/18/2018 03:07 PMPosted by Heihachi
02/18/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Ralhern
Your excuses are bad. If bronze has nothing but throwers and trolls, then that is true for both teams. If you are playing above that level you will win more than 50% of your games and climb.


Wrong. Luck is not equally distributed. Some players will have crappier luck than others.

It's why I don't play the lotto. Try again.


You are so, so right. Competitive is an absolute lottery. SR is just a number showing how lucky/unlucky you got in comp.
You are at the SR you deserve to be.

I think your misconception is what SR represents.

In solo-queue SR represents your ability to work with 5 other random people to defeat 6 other random people. In solo-queue you have a higher chance of getting trolls and leavers as opposed to group queue and you also need to be able to adapt quicker to your environment whereas group queue you tend not to have to worry about your team so much (as you can trust them) and have an easier time.

Group-queue SR is different, it only tests a subset of the skills solo-queue SR does and therefore it tends to be easier to advance as it has less random elements.

The only thing I think you can really say about SR, is that group-queue SR should be different to solo-queue SR.

SR isn't just your mechanical skill and game-sense but also your ability to work with what you have got. Many posts I have seen in this thread and others seem to assume SR is just mechanical skill and game-sense.

If it were, then yes many would be higher (and some lower) but understand your ability to work with random elements is also measured and it makes up a big component of what SR is about.
02/18/2018 03:29 PMPosted by tonks
You are so, so right. Competitive is an absolute lottery. SR is just a number showing how lucky/unlucky you got in comp.


Applying a famous cricket quote to Overwatch:
Overwatch is 91.6..% luck and 8.3..% skill. But don’t try it without that 8.3..%
02/18/2018 01:41 PMPosted by Lightwaves
The SR system at this point in time is really good.


Not even going to try to argue with you mate, you're not even trying. You're in diamond so I don't expect you to understand


I was once gold: https://i.imgur.com/NjUf1nx.jpg

In gold, even way back then, I still maintained the exact philosophy.

Proof:
Got placed ~2100 by playing heros I wasn't familiar with and performed very poorly with. In two days of playing comp widow before the season ended I went from 2186 -> 2627 (then played very poorly due to no motivation, not enough time to grind to diamond).

This is indeed a skill based system, and it will place you accordingly given the correct amount of time and consistency. Do your best, try to work with your team and always try to improve.

02/27/2017 03:29 AMPosted by Unfortunate

But this game quickly becomes who has the weakest link that breaks first. I can't change the fact that the rein on my team can't take his own advise to group up before we try pushing in. I can't change the 27% win rate genji that feeds the enemy team and never gets a kill. It is just a game of who has the better team, and it only takes one bad player to ruin it for the rest of us.


You will get bad teammates from time to time (varying on rank, of course) but by chance the other team will just as often as you. Time, improvement and consistency is the best way to counter this.


Quoted from: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753366206?page=2#post-30
Dated: Feb 27th, 2017

This is indeed a skill based system, and it will place you accordingly given the correct amount of time and consistency.

You will get bad teammates from time to time (varying on rank, of course) but by chance the other team will just as often as you.


This philosophy was formed when I started to get into competitive. This is not a product of me having a "high" rank.
If you play enough games the luck excuse goes out the window, because it will control for variation based on volume. The only constant is your gameplay.
^^^ that.
02/18/2018 03:29 PMPosted by predat0r
You are at the SR you deserve to be.

I think your misconception is what SR represents.

In solo-queue SR represents your ability to work with 5 other random people to defeat 6 other random people. In solo-queue you have a higher chance of getting trolls and leavers as opposed to group queue and you also need to be able to adapt quicker to your environment whereas group queue you tend not to have to worry about your team so much (as you can trust them) and have an easier time.

Group-queue SR is different, it only tests a subset of the skills solo-queue SR does and therefore it tends to be easier to advance as it has less random elements.

The only thing I think you can really say about SR, is that group-queue SR should be different to solo-queue SR.

SR isn't just your mechanical skill and game-sense but also your ability to work with what you have got. Many posts I have seen in this thread and others seem to assume SR is just mechanical skill and game-sense.

If it were, then yes many would be higher (and some lower) but understand your ability to work with random elements is also measured and it makes up a big component of what SR is about.

Just got out of a game with five leavers.

Wanna tell me how to work with that?
if you are in bronze theres a serious issue with your gameplay, it has nothing to do with the system or mm
Losses due to throwers, leavers, griefers end up cancelling out the wins you got from the enemy team having throwers, leavers, and griefers over a long enough period of time.

They are not the reason you are in the SR you are in. Your SR will get inflated and deflated by them just about equally if you play enough games (Technically you'll get a slight gain since there is only 5 slots for throwers/griefers/leavers to take up on your team where there are 6 slots on the enemy team).

So the losses that matter are due to your team overall performing worse than the enemy team. You are not the sole member on your team, but your individual performance does make an impact. If you're on Widow and keep getting outplayed by the enemy Widow you are putting your team at a disadvantage where the enemy Widow puts theirs at an advantage.

So the games that actually matter an individuals performance can make a huge impact. It's why I climbed from 1100 to 3500+ in 4 seasons time (from when I was new to the game to present time).
02/18/2018 04:03 PMPosted by Heihachi
02/18/2018 03:29 PMPosted by predat0r
You are at the SR you deserve to be.

I think your misconception is what SR represents.

In solo-queue SR represents your ability to work with 5 other random people to defeat 6 other random people. In solo-queue you have a higher chance of getting trolls and leavers as opposed to group queue and you also need to be able to adapt quicker to your environment whereas group queue you tend not to have to worry about your team so much (as you can trust them) and have an easier time.

Group-queue SR is different, it only tests a subset of the skills solo-queue SR does and therefore it tends to be easier to advance as it has less random elements.

The only thing I think you can really say about SR, is that group-queue SR should be different to solo-queue SR.

SR isn't just your mechanical skill and game-sense but also your ability to work with what you have got. Many posts I have seen in this thread and others seem to assume SR is just mechanical skill and game-sense.

If it were, then yes many would be higher (and some lower) but understand your ability to work with random elements is also measured and it makes up a big component of what SR is about.

Just got out of a game with five leavers.

Wanna tell me how to work with that?


Stop using one game as your example. It is not possible that every single one of your games has this issue. Literally everyone here is saying, yes bad games happen. But if you truly do not belong in your game you will climb regardless. Record 20 games, leave nothing out. And let's see how many of your games ACTUALLY have leavers. Instead of this "omg it's every game" with zero proof

Edit: leavers/throwers also do not include; hero picks you are not fond off, low skill (tho still trying)
So, a person starts in bronze. They do well enough to make it to gold and gets stuck there because the system believes you should be there. Then, the system decides that you should get a bunch of garbage teammates IN A ROW and now you're in bronze because...it was tired of you being in gold?

Someone help me with making sense of this.
02/18/2018 04:59 PMPosted by unwan7ed
So, a person starts in bronze. They do well enough to make it to gold and gets stuck there because the system believes you should be there. Then, the system decides that you should get a bunch of garbage teammates IN A ROW and now you're in bronze because...it was tired of you being in gold?

Someone help me with making sense of this.


The system doesn't decide to put you with a "bunch of garbage teammates in a row" you just got unlucky unfortunately for a night. Luck will turn and you will get a lucky night at some point as well.

Stats indicate overall you are a <10% player. Meaning you are about right....
If we look solely at your Junkrat you are 54th percentile, with will put you around the 2400 mark. So we say you are in the 54th percentile on your main, but overall you are in the 9th percentile... Says something about the rest of the heroes you play. It all works to paint a picture.

If you can work on playing Junkrat more, and try to deal a bit more damage you will drag up in the %% quite a bit. As the rest of your stats are quite good, the two letting you down are damage and traps. Doing that, your rank will reflect the changes you have made.
02/18/2018 04:21 PMPosted by Voluer
02/18/2018 04:03 PMPosted by Heihachi
...
Just got out of a game with five leavers.

Wanna tell me how to work with that?


Stop using one game as your example. It is not possible that every single one of your games has this issue. Literally everyone here is saying, yes bad games happen. But if you truly do not belong in your game you will climb regardless. Record 20 games, leave nothing out. And let's see how many of your games ACTUALLY have leavers. Instead of this "omg it's every game" with zero proof

Edit: leavers/throwers also do not include; hero picks you are not fond off, low skill (tho still trying)

I was in gold man, in gold, maintained for a while. 20 losses in a row. every. single. one. had. a. leaver.

You don't know what your'e talking about. you come from your high horse (the rich man) and try to dictate how (the poor man) should feel.you have no idea what it's like down here.
I go on 500 SR swings. It gets you in the ballpark but it isn’t extremely accurate
02/18/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Heihachi
You don't know what your'e talking about. you come from your high horse (the rich man) and try to dictate how (the poor man) should feel.you have no idea what it's like down here.


You're assuming we have never been at that rank? That the same thing doesn't occur in the other ranks?

Work to improve your stats, that is the only thing YOU can change. You can't change the teams you get, bad or good, so work on what you can change. If you work on the only element you can change, you will see an improvement in your SR.
02/18/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Lightwaves
I read it often in this forum, whenever some " low rank" like me posts about how the sr system is screwing us over. "You are at the SR you belong", "Stop blaming others" ,"There's no such thing as bad luck", "Focus on yourself","If you're there you're doing something wrong".

Following these sayings, I'm the only one responsible for my losses. I cannot blame anyone , because throwers/leavers/ smurfs are not why I lose.

But you are forgetting that overwatch is a team game. TEAM. Meaning one player cannot be the difference, unless that player is really good. Your rank is more determined by how well your team works together than by your sole performance.

How am I at the SR i belong to, when I climb 1k when I'm in a good team and drop down 1k when I solo queue. What's that? The team was carrying? Wait, I thought you sr was solely determined by your skill.... so maybe it isn't after all....

Are you going to tell me that toxic players/onetricks/throwers/leavers/smurfs are just a product of my imagination? That there's no such thing as bad luck when I play against or with these people 5 times in a row?

Are you going to tell me I belong where I am, when i carry so hard my mouse clicks don't work properly anymore. When i have all my hours on reinhardt and freaking moira when i'm a reaper main?
When I play hours on end trying to get some sens einto people's head until I end up with 5 other people, and we're so good we decide to stick together and win every game?

The sr system SHOULD be an accurate representation of where you belong but it isn't . It's flawed and it's still getting fixed, and we're just talking about the problems we encounter at our rank.

So don't come in those thread, you who only play with you team and never solo queue, saying that "You belong where you are".
Because if we're making a thread about what we notice, about what we think would make our experience better , and if so many people are doing it that it's literally what you see everyday, it means there is an actual problem.

And stop thinking bronze/silver players don't know what they're doing. They do. I do. I know my flaws and I know I don't always play well. And when i don't I blame myself, but genuinely, when I have a normal team, I win.

also please, saying that " if you're there you must be doing something wrong" no one is perfect. It's not becaus eyou're doing 1 thign wrong that your a re stuck in bronze. Becaus ethen it would mean everyone above plays perfectly yet are not gm, which makes no sense


I have this life philosophy kind of thing in which I believe that what we do is on us... but whatever we do that involves other people does end up affecting other people. We can focus on ourselves to focus, but if the other person decides otherwise, there will be some issues.

Looking at how Blizzard's teamwork-based design, a thrower/troll/griefer has more control on the game. If both teams have one, its just a matter on who has the harder griefer/thrower/troll or on which team has that or those people and decide on just trying to win instead.
02/18/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Heihachi
02/18/2018 04:21 PMPosted by Voluer
...

Stop using one game as your example. It is not possible that every single one of your games has this issue. Literally everyone here is saying, yes bad games happen. But if you truly do not belong in your game you will climb regardless. Record 20 games, leave nothing out. And let's see how many of your games ACTUALLY have leavers. Instead of this "omg it's every game" with zero proof

Edit: leavers/throwers also do not include; hero picks you are not fond off, low skill (tho still trying)

I was in gold man, in gold, maintained for a while. 20 losses in a row. every. single. one. had. a. leaver.

You don't know what your'e talking about. you come from your high horse (the rich man) and try to dictate how (the poor man) should feel.you have no idea what it's like down here.


False, actually. If you guys would read u have my example and reason behind saying what I say. I main mercy on this account and I am sitting on my "high horse" as you claim but on my ALT I bought specifically for learning to play dps I tried my best, and got placed in silver, because I had a lot of learning to do in dps. After grinding for months on that account I have managed to get it to high plat. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when you can't even read the form. Yea, i had loss streaks on that account, same as I do on this account. But that's all they were, streaks. Play enough and you overcome those streaks. I've been in that elo, was for months. And believe me when I tell you you're exaggerating. Bad luck happens, but it is not every single game, and it does not hold you captive in a certain elo. If you are stuck it's because you belong there. Jesus just look at your personal stats compared to those on "high horses" there is a reason performance based Sr was left in plat and below. Because you have to improve yourself before you can start solely blaming your team.
02/18/2018 05:22 PMPosted by Anfanee
02/18/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Heihachi
You don't know what your'e talking about. you come from your high horse (the rich man) and try to dictate how (the poor man) should feel.you have no idea what it's like down here.


You're assuming we have never been at that rank? That the same thing doesn't occur in the other ranks?

Work to improve your stats, that is the only thing YOU can change. You can't change the teams you get, bad or good, so work on what you can change. If you work on the only element you can change, you will see an improvement in your SR.


You keep addressing me, and i find this quite interesting.
We are never going to agree on this. Why waste the energy replying to me?
Even if I miraculously became GM one day, I will never change my opinion regarding toxicity, trolls, leavers, throwers, and smurfs, and you will always believe that despite these factors EVERYONE who tries will climb.

I say this without malice. We will never agree. Spend your typing efforts elswhere. :P
20 Leavers in a row... Holy !@#$ man. I'd have u installed ow after 5 or 6 in a row. That's far from acceptable.

1) Climbed from 1700 to 2300 in 2 seasons maining Torb after stuck for 30 hours as Mercy. If you belong higher dps your way out.

2) I heartily concur on having to change styles at lower ELO. I was a competent 2300 player. Getting better with Orisa. Queued with low level friend and played 2000. Absolute nightmare. Healers didn't keep me topped up and my dps didn't use my barriers and couldn't get kills... Went 1-3 in 4 games. Also team spread out and even one game where last person to pick went 5th dps to go with my tank... Lol.

Thought about this and was playing qp today around, I guess, 1700 Sr (Teamed up with two not so great buddies). I went Moira. Gives team a healer, that can also damage if your dps are shockingly bad. Better yet, low ELO teams are often pussies that won't initiate pushes. Activate the Ult, charge in and watch your team follow the bright laser beam (Then stay back and heal them for much health and finish targets your dps have trouble with).

Worked pretty well tbh.
02/18/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Voluer
02/18/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Heihachi
...
I was in gold man, in gold, maintained for a while. 20 losses in a row. every. single. one. had. a. leaver.

You don't know what your'e talking about. you come from your high horse (the rich man) and try to dictate how (the poor man) should feel.you have no idea what it's like down here.


False, actually. If you guys would read u have my example and reason behind saying what I say. I main mercy on this account and I am sitting on my "high horse" as you claim but on my ALT I bought specifically for learning to play dps I tried my best, and got placed in silver, because I had a lot of learning to do in dps. After grinding for months on that account I have managed to get it to high plat. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when you can't even read the form. Yea, i had loss streaks on that account, same as I do on this account. But that's all they were, streaks. Play enough and you overcome those streaks. I've been in that elo, was for months. And believe me when I tell you you're exaggerating. Bad luck happens, but it is not every single game, and it does not hold you captive in a certain elo. If you are stuck it's because you belong there. Jesus just look at your personal stats compared to those on "high horses" there is a reason performance based Sr was left in plat and below. Because you have to improve yourself before you can start solely blaming your team.


Fine, you have a right to your opinion. I won't discuss this with you further, as it seems we will never agree.
I wish you luck in your games, and congrats on your climb. :)

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