" you are at the SR you belong" fallacy

Competitive Discussion
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02/19/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Heihachi
02/19/2018 06:13 AMPosted by aflyguy
You are ranked worse than 90 percent of the population. Very few people in your position would accept the fact that they suck, but it is the case.

Overwatch is a team game, yes, but if you understand probability and statistics, you would know why the system works in determining your individual skill. All other variables Cancel out over enough games except for your individual performance. That means trolls leavers one tricks etc cancel out, they occur equally often on your own team as the other team.

Your perception that silver players know what they are doing is just that, your perception. Your perception is clearly flawed. Because if you knew how to play the game in such a manner that you weren't making blundering errors at basically every instance, your SR wouldn't be lower than 90 percent of the population. But you don't. So you don't see or understand how suboptimal your performances actually are. Just the same way I have trouble figuring out my suboptimal decisions causing me to be stuck in diamond, except that my suboptimal decision making is far less severe than yours.

Maybe I do suck. You miss the point. I’ll never know or believe I do, until EVERY game is free from toxicity, throwers, trolls, leavers and smurfs.

I’m not saying I’m GM. far from it. But I have played and held my own at low gold.

As to the “other players get them too”, luck is not evenly distributed. It’s why I don’t play the lotto.


I think the problem is the skill ratings in general. We think we belong at a higher rank because at some point we have played at a higher ranks and been able to perform well.

The thing is, skill is all over the place in all ranks. The SR system is severely flawed because it only takes statistics into account over the long term.

Short term it is wins.. but those get eaten away by the uneven SR gains and losses because of the hidden MMR which is based purely on stats in relation to a number of factors.

So, you get players who are scattered at different ranks for different reasons. Some have great mechanical skill, but lack awareness.. so they climb faster despite wins. Then you have other players who have strengths (or characters like symm) who don’t have their contributions to the team counted.. these are the players who have huge win rates but constantly over time lose SR season after season.

So the point is.. there is no “right” rank.. because the ranking system is so f’d up.

If your goal is to have better games free of toxic and throwing people.. you’ll never find it. These people are in all ranks... according to you, they are even so numerous in gold that they dropped you as far as you fell.

I think that is what everyone is trying to explain.

Why exactly do you want to be rated higher?

Do you want to no longer be labeled as bad.. because now everyone is saying you are cause your bronze?

Then you really have to improve. Improving WILL naturally increase your rank. It might not seem like it now, but it will. Then you will be better. Then you will play against and with better people on avg.

But you will never get rid of the trolls that ruin games because they are always there. The leavers are all there.

Personally, I don’t know if I want to play with “better” people because generally have larger ego problems that mask their bad play from their own eyes.

See, the toxic throwers and bad teammates don’t go away.. they just change as to HOW and WHY they throw.

Bronze you get people that just don’t care about their SR they just good off.

In Masters, you get the try hards that if everything doesn’t go perfect for them they jump on their silver level hanzo or symm and tank your game because they “think” you are tanking theirs.

It never goes away. Even the pros purposely leave games (cough EFFECT) because someone picks a hero they don’t like.

So carefully think about exactly what you are complaining about.. what the SR really means.. (its not skill level, its a handicap system designed to predict the outcome of a 50/50 match).. and think about if Blizzard is trying to address your concerns..

The report system is there for your trolls. Its bad. It doesn’t work. Mostly cause its abused by people like xqc and effect and like minded people.

I personally think the issues you have are not tied to the flawed SR system. It is a community issue.

The SR system, if you choose to play heroes in a way that the system thinks you are performing above avg will help you climb. In fact, below gold or the avg player base, it actively tries to pull you up because it take into account that bad players will hinder your ability to win and you cannot properly form good teams that low.

But the people that have the basics down.. don’t want to play with people that don’t know the basics in their skills that blizzard has determined through their matchmaker, you have not figures out yet.

Just like you don’t want to play with those people.

You just simply have to prove that to the computer...

That is.. if that is what you are truely after.
02/19/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Heihachi
02/19/2018 06:13 AMPosted by aflyguy
You are ranked worse than 90 percent of the population. Very few people in your position would accept the fact that they suck, but it is the case.

Overwatch is a team game, yes, but if you understand probability and statistics, you would know why the system works in determining your individual skill. All other variables Cancel out over enough games except for your individual performance. That means trolls leavers one tricks etc cancel out, they occur equally often on your own team as the other team.

Your perception that silver players know what they are doing is just that, your perception. Your perception is clearly flawed. Because if you knew how to play the game in such a manner that you weren't making blundering errors at basically every instance, your SR wouldn't be lower than 90 percent of the population. But you don't. So you don't see or understand how suboptimal your performances actually are. Just the same way I have trouble figuring out my suboptimal decisions causing me to be stuck in diamond, except that my suboptimal decision making is far less severe than yours.

Maybe I do suck. You miss the point. I’ll never know or believe I do, until EVERY game is free from toxicity, throwers, trolls, leavers and smurfs.

I’m not saying I’m GM. far from it. But I have played and held my own at low gold.

As to the “other players get them too”, luck is not evenly distributed. It’s why I don’t play the lotto.


Actually, luck is evenly distributed in this scenario. One could write up a mathematical proof on why luck is distributed evenly in matchmaking. In fact, The assumption that luck is distributed evenly is one of the central tenets of elo theory, especially in team based games. You can disagree if you want, but your disagreement would be wrong. The lotto is an entirely differet beast probability wise For obvious reasons, yet people often make that comparison.
02/19/2018 08:23 AMPosted by Puck269
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Maybe I do suck. You miss the point. I’ll never know or believe I do, until EVERY game is free from toxicity, throwers, trolls, leavers and smurfs.

I’m not saying I’m GM. far from it. But I have played and held my own at low gold.

As to the “other players get them too”, luck is not evenly distributed. It’s why I don’t play the lotto.


I think the problem is the skill ratings in general. We think we belong at a higher rank because at some point we have played at a higher ranks and been able to perform well.

The thing is, skill is all over the place in all ranks. The SR system is severely flawed because it only takes statistics into account over the long term.

Short term it is wins.. but those get eaten away by the uneven SR gains and losses because of the hidden MMR which is based purely on stats in relation to a number of factors.

So, you get players who are scattered at different ranks for different reasons. Some have great mechanical skill, but lack awareness.. so they climb faster despite wins. Then you have other players who have strengths (or characters like symm) who don’t have their contributions to the team counted.. these are the players who have huge win rates but constantly over time lose SR season after season.

So the point is.. there is no “right” rank.. because the ranking system is so f’d up.

If your goal is to have better games free of toxic and throwing people.. you’ll never find it. These people are in all ranks... according to you, they are even so numerous in gold that they dropped you as far as you fell.

I think that is what everyone is trying to explain.

Why exactly do you want to be rated higher?

Do you want to no longer be labeled as bad.. because now everyone is saying you are cause your bronze?

Then you really have to improve. Improving WILL naturally increase your rank. It might not seem like it now, but it will. Then you will be better. Then you will play against and with better people on avg.

But you will never get rid of the trolls that ruin games because they are always there. The leavers are all there.

Personally, I don’t know if I want to play with “better” people because generally have larger ego problems that mask their bad play from their own eyes.

See, the toxic throwers and bad teammates don’t go away.. they just change as to HOW and WHY they throw.

Bronze you get people that just don’t care about their SR they just good off.

In Masters, you get the try hards that if everything doesn’t go perfect for them they jump on their silver level hanzo or symm and tank your game because they “think” you are tanking theirs.

It never goes away. Even the pros purposely leave games (cough EFFECT) because someone picks a hero they don’t like.

So carefully think about exactly what you are complaining about.. what the SR really means.. (its not skill level, its a handicap system designed to predict the outcome of a 50/50 match).. and think about if Blizzard is trying to address your concerns..

The report system is there for your trolls. Its bad. It doesn’t work. Mostly cause its abused by people like xqc and effect and like minded people.

I personally think the issues you have are not tied to the flawed SR system. It is a community issue.

The SR system, if you choose to play heroes in a way that the system thinks you are performing above avg will help you climb. In fact, below gold or the avg player base, it actively tries to pull you up because it take into account that bad players will hinder your ability to win and you cannot properly form good teams that low.

But the people that have the basics down.. don’t want to play with people that don’t know the basics in their skills that blizzard has determined through their matchmaker, you have not figures out yet.

Just like you don’t want to play with those people.

You just simply have to prove that to the computer...

That is.. if that is what you are truely after.


Nothing you say in this absurdly long post is grounded in fact or evidence based theory. Your argument is built upon your own personal assumptions which have no merit. This type of thought process and argumentation wouldnt fly on a high school essay, yet you allow it to guide your belief systems and you claim authority on a topic for which you dont have adequate background to do so. Your in game experiences and perceptions are meaningless. When you argue elo based matchmaking is flawed or suboptimal, you argue against people with pHds and years of research on this topic. That is a fundamental problem that extends far beyond the bounds of this one forum post. It is blatant anti intellectualism, which happens to run rampant on these forums
Not saying you're wrong about the team game argument but first some insight from my personal experience:

- I solo q in 95% of my games in competitive
- I flex, playing Support most of the time due to that
- I was hovering around 2800 to 3100 for the first seasons until I challenged myself to climb, ending up at about 3600 in S4
- Since I improved so much in S4, I never had trouble reaching Diamond again
- I once challenged myself to go from 2100 to 3000 on a new account and it took me about 40-50 games only
- in every game I've had this season there were at least 2 smurfs, one on each side usually. They are mostly GM smurfs that play something they usually don't or they are quo-q with a Diamond they try to carry to Master

BUT, I can also see the other side. In S5 I had tons of trolls and leavers so I dropped like a stone from 3600 the season before back to almost 2800. I made my way back to 3100 eventually but I felt helpless and started playing bad because of that.

I've had seasons were I got extremely unlucky and dropped 200 or 300SR one win away from my goal.

The thing is that the RNG can only even out with tons of games. If you have a 55% win rate you are going to need to play 20 games in order to make progress worth one win in terms of SR. That is a lot. This means that truly climbing 100 SR can take 80 - 100 games if you gain and lose about 20 - 25 SR per game. I'm using this example because it is what happened to me this season. It took me about 110 games to climb from 3370 placement to cross 3500.

I know however, that a lot of people in Bronze and Silver tend to leave games but up until Platinum, one leaver, while giving you a disadvantage, doesn't automatically mean you lose. Both teams are still doing enough mistakes to have a decent chance of winning despite that.

I told the same thing to a friend who was stuck in Bronze and always reminded her to stay positive, focus on her own improvement and to see the great scheme instead of single games. She climbed from 1200 to 2600 in solo q all by herself, playing mostly Support and Tanks. It took her about 2 seasons but she constantly kept winning more than she lost and made her way up until she's now sitting at about 2400-2600 with a close to 50% win rate as that is her current skill level.

She faced frustration, wanted to give up, blamed her team and all that.. but she let go of all of it and made it. You can do it too.
02/19/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Heihachi
As to the “other players get them too”, luck is not evenly distributed. It’s why I don’t play the lotto.
The lottery? lol

A quick math lesson...You have 5 random players. The enemy team has 6. The odds of the opposing team having a thrower/leaver/whatever is actually greater than your odds. This game is actually stacked in YOUR favor (assuming you aren't the one causing leavers/toxicity/etc).

Here's an example. Let's say that there is 1 thrower in every game. In 6 out of 11 games, it is likely that the thrower will be on the enemy team. Now, of course every 11 games that won't happen, and I don't know how much you know about probability (I'm assuming none, since you compared overwatch to winning the lottery), but, the more games you play, the more accurate that 6/11 statistic will be. For EVERYONE. Not just people with "luck." Flip a coin 10 times, you may not get 5 heads 5 tails. Flip it 1000 times, you'll be a lot closer to 500 heads 500 tails.
Anyone reading this over the age of 10 should be violently angry at how little sense this makes.
02/19/2018 08:41 AMPosted by Musicxmp3
Not saying you're wrong about the team game argument but first some insight from my personal experience:

- I solo q in 95% of my games in competitive
- I flex, playing Support most of the time due to that
- I was hovering around 2800 to 3100 for the first seasons until I challenged myself to climb, ending up at about 3600 in S4
- Since I improved so much in S4, I never had trouble reaching Diamond again
- I once challenged myself to go from 2100 to 3000 on a new account and it took me about 40-50 games only
- in every game I've had this season there were at least 2 smurfs, one on each side usually. They are mostly GM smurfs that play something they usually don't or they are quo-q with a Diamond they try to carry to Master

BUT, I can also see the other side. In S5 I had tons of trolls and leavers so I dropped like a stone from 3600 the season before back to almost 2800. I made my way back to 3100 eventually but I felt helpless and started playing bad because of that.

I've had seasons were I got extremely unlucky and dropped 200 or 300SR one win away from my goal.

The thing is that the RNG can only even out with tons of games. If you have a 55% win rate you are going to need to play 20 games in order to make progress worth one win in terms of SR. That is a lot. This means that truly climbing 100 SR can take 80 - 100 games if you gain and lose about 20 - 25 SR per game. I'm using this example because it is what happened to me this season. It took me about 110 games to climb from 3370 placement to cross 3500.

I know however, that a lot of people in Bronze and Silver tend to leave games but up until Platinum, one leaver, while giving you a disadvantage, doesn't automatically mean you lose. Both teams are still doing enough mistakes to have a decent chance of winning despite that.

I told the same thing to a friend who was stuck in Bronze and always reminded her to stay positive, focus on her own improvement and to see the great scheme instead of single games. She climbed from 1200 to 2600 in solo q all by herself, playing mostly Support and Tanks. It took her about 2 seasons but she constantly kept winning more than she lost and made her way up until she's now sitting at about 2400-2600 with a close to 50% win rate as that is her current skill level.

She faced frustration, wanted to give up, blamed her team and all that.. but she let go of all of it and made it. You can do it too.


Yea the only rational argument regarding rng is that it causes ranking up to take longer, which is certainly frustrating. But it is difficult to eliminate rng or even reduce it when the rng often originates in unpredictable humna behavior. There are some common patterns in ow that could potentially be adddressed
This is laughable. If you can't even break into a four-digit SR, you don't just have issues with the game, likely your mouse has a couple seconds delay or something like that.
At the end of the day, if you're good enough, you will climb, it's a fact, but be prepared for the other edge of the sword, and that's the FACT of having teammates who don't try, troll, are toxic, are not good enough or facing an enemy team with a 3 stack of owl players in low GM. It's happened to me. One of the least enjoyable games I've ever played. The system is truly rigged in the sense of lack of consistency. It's a people problem more so than an algorithm, but it's a problem nonetheless. Sure everyone has bad games that they actually deserve to lose, I've had plenty of them. I'm not perfect, never claimed to be, but let's face the facts here. Leavers, trolls, and toxicity are all crippling conditions of competitive and it IS holding people back in many instances. This game is turning into Futuristic CoD 2.0
Plat is the only rank that this would apply to. Even then you can still climb out of plat its just harder. gold and below are easy to climb out of. All you need is mechanical skill to reach plat, once you get into plat you need game sense
I agree. When I'm widowmaker on temple of Anubis and I get 3 picks back to back, and my FIVE teammates still die to 3 of theirs on the 2nd point on attack. I just have to throw my hands up. Like what more can I do?!?! I can't do my job and theirs too!!
I do agree with you are at your rank to an extent. Ranking up in this game is all about winning. Making the choices your team needs to win the match and gain the sr more often than losing. That could mean carrying as dps, that could mean going out of position to risk dying to secure a huge value kill and being able to get out, etc. Who wins is based on which team does it better. Yes, there are trolls and 1 tricks and other obstacles but your chances of getting them aren't any more or less than every other player in the game.

People complain about when their team gets trolls and that stuff so they lose, but more often than not, you have also won and thanked the blizzard gods that be for the other team getting those trolls and you win.
02/18/2018 10:48 AMPosted by LX2
02/18/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Applesoup
...So, ask yourself, what are you doing that is keeping you at the "SR that you belong."

You do realize that there are "high rank" players right? They don't have the same problems that you have. That's why you hear these responses.

Figure out what they are doing right, what you are doing wrong, and you will climb too!


I’ll tell you what I’ve done. I used to main tank and fill and just kept dropping. Today I played several games autolocking Reaper and already gained 200 SR. I guess I need to be the bad guy and autolock DPS in order to climb.

I’ll post an update on where my rank is at the end of this week.


This. Unfortunately in this team game, you actually have to be selfish to raise your hidden MMR and rank up. No filling. No playing your 8th best hero because of some supposed magic comp. You have to be in your absolute best heroes, avoid death as much as you can.

I don’t agree with or like the system much at all. They’re hiding things, and the streaks are very obvious. Still, all you can hope to do is raise your hidden MMR by ignoring people who ask for this hero or that. They’re too busy thinking about comp and should let people play their best heroes. That’s just how I feel.
02/19/2018 08:48 AMPosted by Applesoup
02/19/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Heihachi
As to the “other players get them too”, luck is not evenly distributed. It’s why I don’t play the lotto.
The lottery? lol

A quick math lesson...You have 5 random players. The enemy team has 6. The odds of the opposing team having a thrower/leaver/whatever is actually greater than your odds. This game is actually stacked in YOUR favor (assuming you aren't the one causing leavers/toxicity/etc).

Here's an example. Let's say that there is 1 thrower in every game. In 6 out of 11 games, it is likely that the thrower will be on the enemy team. Now, of course every 11 games that won't happen, and I don't know how much you know about probability (I'm assuming none, since you compared overwatch to winning the lottery), but, the more games you play, the more accurate that 6/11 statistic will be. For EVERYONE. Not just people with "luck." Flip a coin 10 times, you may not get 5 heads 5 tails. Flip it 1000 times, you'll be a lot closer to 500 heads 500 tails.


God, I love this argument.
You've just written this post giving me great advice. Now say for example, someone else comes to you complaining of the same thing I do. You'll give them the same advice right?
Say that this hypothetical person and I end up on opposing teams.
Suddenly your argument is moot man. I guarantee you in every game i'm in, there is AT LEAST one person on the enemy team who would also never leave.

I'm not the only person in the world.
02/19/2018 10:54 AMPosted by Heihachi
God, I love this argument.
You've just written this post giving me great advice. Now say for example, someone else comes to you complaining of the same thing I do. You'll give them the same advice right?
Say that this hypothetical person and I end up on opposing teams.
Suddenly your argument is moot man. I guarantee you in every game i'm in, there is AT LEAST one person on the enemy team who would also never leave.

I'm not the only person in the world.


Yes, its not about those who don't leave. It's about those who do. You are more likely to get a leaver or troll or smurf or whatever on the other team than you are on your own because they have 6 chances for one of those people, you only have 5 (assuming you aren't one of those people). So even if there are 5 people on the enemy team who are really trying hard, the 6th could screw it all up for them.
02/19/2018 08:41 AMPosted by Musicxmp3
Not saying you're wrong about the team game argument but first some insight from my personal experience:

- I solo q in 95% of my games in competitive
- I flex, playing Support most of the time due to that
- I was hovering around 2800 to 3100 for the first seasons until I challenged myself to climb, ending up at about 3600 in S4
- Since I improved so much in S4, I never had trouble reaching Diamond again
- I once challenged myself to go from 2100 to 3000 on a new account and it took me about 40-50 games only
- in every game I've had this season there were at least 2 smurfs, one on each side usually. They are mostly GM smurfs that play something they usually don't or they are quo-q with a Diamond they try to carry to Master

BUT, I can also see the other side. In S5 I had tons of trolls and leavers so I dropped like a stone from 3600 the season before back to almost 2800. I made my way back to 3100 eventually but I felt helpless and started playing bad because of that.

I've had seasons were I got extremely unlucky and dropped 200 or 300SR one win away from my goal.

The thing is that the RNG can only even out with tons of games. If you have a 55% win rate you are going to need to play 20 games in order to make progress worth one win in terms of SR. That is a lot. This means that truly climbing 100 SR can take 80 - 100 games if you gain and lose about 20 - 25 SR per game. I'm using this example because it is what happened to me this season. It took me about 110 games to climb from 3370 placement to cross 3500.

I know however, that a lot of people in Bronze and Silver tend to leave games but up until Platinum, one leaver, while giving you a disadvantage, doesn't automatically mean you lose. Both teams are still doing enough mistakes to have a decent chance of winning despite that.

I told the same thing to a friend who was stuck in Bronze and always reminded her to stay positive, focus on her own improvement and to see the great scheme instead of single games. She climbed from 1200 to 2600 in solo q all by herself, playing mostly Support and Tanks. It took her about 2 seasons but she constantly kept winning more than she lost and made her way up until she's now sitting at about 2400-2600 with a close to 50% win rate as that is her current skill level.

She faced frustration, wanted to give up, blamed her team and all that.. but she let go of all of it and made it. You can do it too.


Thanks for this post man. You've given me much to think about.
02/19/2018 10:54 AMPosted by Heihachi
02/19/2018 08:48 AMPosted by Applesoup
...The lottery? lol

A quick math lesson...You have 5 random players. The enemy team has 6. The odds of the opposing team having a thrower/leaver/whatever is actually greater than your odds. This game is actually stacked in YOUR favor (assuming you aren't the one causing leavers/toxicity/etc).

Here's an example. Let's say that there is 1 thrower in every game. In 6 out of 11 games, it is likely that the thrower will be on the enemy team. Now, of course every 11 games that won't happen, and I don't know how much you know about probability (I'm assuming none, since you compared overwatch to winning the lottery), but, the more games you play, the more accurate that 6/11 statistic will be. For EVERYONE. Not just people with "luck." Flip a coin 10 times, you may not get 5 heads 5 tails. Flip it 1000 times, you'll be a lot closer to 500 heads 500 tails.


God, I love this argument.
You've just written this post giving me great advice. Now say for example, someone else comes to you complaining of the same thing I do. You'll give them the same advice right?
Say that this hypothetical person and I end up on opposing teams.
Suddenly your argument is moot man. I guarantee you in every game i'm in, there is AT LEAST one person on the enemy team who would also never leave.

I'm not the only person in the world.


. You are not grasping this principal of probability. His argument (it's not an argument it's fact) is not moot just because you don't understand it.
02/19/2018 08:27 AMPosted by aflyguy
02/19/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Heihachi
...
Maybe I do suck. You miss the point. I’ll never know or believe I do, until EVERY game is free from toxicity, throwers, trolls, leavers and smurfs.

I’m not saying I’m GM. far from it. But I have played and held my own at low gold.

As to the “other players get them too”, luck is not evenly distributed. It’s why I don’t play the lotto.


Actually, luck is evenly distributed in this scenario. One could write up a mathematical proof on why luck is distributed evenly in matchmaking. In fact, The assumption that luck is distributed evenly is one of the central tenets of elo theory, especially in team based games. You can disagree if you want, but your disagreement would be wrong. The lotto is an entirely differet beast probability wise For obvious reasons, yet people often make that comparison.


Ah, now THIS post is interesting. Care to elaborate on this? How does someone compute that human behavior is evenly distributed after so many games? I'm not being snarky, just curious. Is there really an algorithm that can predict the guy who had a bad day and played comp, the guy who drank or smoked too much and played comp, the guy who tilted hard before the match even started and played comp. etc.

Genuinely curious.
02/18/2018 10:17 AMPosted by Lightwaves
02/18/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Applesoup
...

Figure out what they are doing right, what you are doing wrong, and you will climb too!


They probably play in teams, and I'm pretty sure you don't get that many smurfs in high rank because how do you smurf in high rank? I'm pretty sure there's way less trolls as well, and people in your team know how to play which I'm pretty sure contributes a lot. Also communications is probably there too, unlike here where it seems to have gone on a forever vacation

OH YEAH I SEE WHTA IM DOING WRONG. Let me fix it so, let's start by bying a brain to everyone, as well as a mic, and also miraculously put game sense and awareness as well as team comps and trategies in everyone brains. And then I just ahve to find 5 people to play with me.

Excuse me I didn't realise it was this simple

Or you could try actually improving instead of complaining about a system that isn’t actually hindering you. I mean, are you going to stay in your rank. Do you want to know why? Because you haven’t put any effort into actually improving.
...

I think the problem is the skill ratings in general. We think we belong at a higher rank because at some point we have played at a higher ranks and been able to perform well.

The thing is, skill is all over the place in all ranks. The SR system is severely flawed because it only takes statistics into account over the long term.

Short term it is wins.. but those get eaten away by the uneven SR gains and losses because of the hidden MMR which is based purely on stats in relation to a number of factors.

So, you get players who are scattered at different ranks for different reasons. Some have great mechanical skill, but lack awareness.. so they climb faster despite wins. Then you have other players who have strengths (or characters like symm) who don’t have their contributions to the team counted.. these are the players who have huge win rates but constantly over time lose SR season after season.

So the point is.. there is no “right” rank.. because the ranking system is so f’d up.

If your goal is to have better games free of toxic and throwing people.. you’ll never find it. These people are in all ranks... according to you, they are even so numerous in gold that they dropped you as far as you fell.

I think that is what everyone is trying to explain.

Why exactly do you want to be rated higher?

Do you want to no longer be labeled as bad.. because now everyone is saying you are cause your bronze?

Then you really have to improve. Improving WILL naturally increase your rank. It might not seem like it now, but it will. Then you will be better. Then you will play against and with better people on avg.

But you will never get rid of the trolls that ruin games because they are always there. The leavers are all there.

Personally, I don’t know if I want to play with “better” people because generally have larger ego problems that mask their bad play from their own eyes.

See, the toxic throwers and bad teammates don’t go away.. they just change as to HOW and WHY they throw.

Bronze you get people that just don’t care about their SR they just good off.

In Masters, you get the try hards that if everything doesn’t go perfect for them they jump on their silver level hanzo or symm and tank your game because they “think” you are tanking theirs.

It never goes away. Even the pros purposely leave games (cough EFFECT) because someone picks a hero they don’t like.

So carefully think about exactly what you are complaining about.. what the SR really means.. (its not skill level, its a handicap system designed to predict the outcome of a 50/50 match).. and think about if Blizzard is trying to address your concerns..

The report system is there for your trolls. Its bad. It doesn’t work. Mostly cause its abused by people like xqc and effect and like minded people.

I personally think the issues you have are not tied to the flawed SR system. It is a community issue.

The SR system, if you choose to play heroes in a way that the system thinks you are performing above avg will help you climb. In fact, below gold or the avg player base, it actively tries to pull you up because it take into account that bad players will hinder your ability to win and you cannot properly form good teams that low.

But the people that have the basics down.. don’t want to play with people that don’t know the basics in their skills that blizzard has determined through their matchmaker, you have not figures out yet.

Just like you don’t want to play with those people.

You just simply have to prove that to the computer...

That is.. if that is what you are truely after.


Nothing you say in this absurdly long post is grounded in fact or evidence based theory. Your argument is built upon your own personal assumptions which have no merit. This type of thought process and argumentation wouldnt fly on a high school essay, yet you allow it to guide your belief systems and you claim authority on a topic for which you dont have adequate background to do so. Your in game experiences and perceptions are meaningless. When you argue elo based matchmaking is flawed or suboptimal, you argue against people with pHds and years of research on this topic. That is a fundamental problem that extends far beyond the bounds of this one forum post. It is blatant anti intellectualism, which happens to run rampant on these forums


What on earth are you carrying on about? I didn’t write anything but a conversation to a guy struggling with playing a game he thinks is against him.

As for my claims about SR. I’m not gonna get into it here, but everything has been back up by developers short and incomplete discriptions of the SR and MMR systems. Its not my fault that this isn’t the place for the essay.

If you don’t believe in the handicapping theory about the MMR that is fine.. but it has yet to be proven, nor disproven otherwise.

Math theories and statistics are based on data points and outliers. In a computer formula, there should be no outliers if it was a perfect system that takes into consideration all possible factors.

The thing is, “skill” is a subjective term. You cannot quantify skill absolutely into a number.. or even a series of numbers especially if you cannot even define what skill is.
If you define skill as the ability to win. Then the only factor to determine “skill” is wins. Which would of course lead to a flat win/loss.

We all can agree that the SR system is so far from a flat win/loss system. There is absolutely no doubts about that. Play 3 games and the odds you getting the same for a win or a loss is highly improbable. Play 50 and maintain a 50% rate and I will guarantee you will not be exactly where you started.

So what exactly goes into determining SR gains? As observed by numerous dats points made public on many streams of diamond and above SR gains and losses are determined by how you perform depending on if the system determines if you have the advantage in the matchup.. or if you were predicted to win.

How can it do that if it doesn’t somehow handicap (as the gambling people define it) the game? Combine that with NUMEROUS posts about the goal of the matchmaking system is to find a game as close to a 50/50 shot at winning leads to the very real and probable possibility that Blizzard has created a very complicated and dear I say very accurate handicapping system for this game.

Now, how does it determine skill. What does it use to determine “skill” is the next question. Below diamond.. it puts a higher emphasis on the stats and predicting factor in the matchmaker.

Not all strategies for all heroes are built equal. Now, for the dos players you use, its easy. Point and click.. don’t die.. whoever is the best.. has that best ration. For tanks and supports it is more about clutch plays or non-plays that are a LOT more subjective. But the computer cannot possibly predict such plays, or skill and strategies a player possesses that cannot be made into a number. Its impossible because of the number of factors, was it the dps that was playing awesome, or the tank that created the space allowing them to do it.. or the blinking tracer distracting the enemy so they couldn’t take out the dps player... was it the strategy of the healer who called out plays, flanks, etc allowing the team to work together? What is you did all that, but your dps didn’t listen and they died leaving your whole team at a severe disadvantage?

Do you really think the system can tell the difference between an overextending teammate, or an enemy that got a lucky pick?

Now, it does its best and overrall it does a good job. But outliers form. These outliers disrupt the whole system because of how its built.

If you have a system that is dependent on the prediction of a match.. but you have an outlier in the match.. it throws off the whole calculation. It makes the match mismatched.. but the system cannot recognize at the time who is the outlier at the end of a match. It sees that it got its prediction wrong and adjust the displayed number accordingly.

For someone who is wrongly placed lower on MMR.. you will get a high win rate but lower SR. This happens, it cannot be ignored. The MMR tries to bring the SR number close to it so that the display number matches with its hidden prediction marker with others that have similar display numbers. The person keeps winning, but the system doesn’t recognize it as a skill problem because it systematically cannot see errors. It cannot see this skill, because it cannot make it a number.

So what happens is that you get less and less for a win.. but when you lose, you lose big.

The only way to combat that is to increase your stats so that the computer can see “skill”. Easy to do on dps, harder to do on support and win.

It isn’t performance based SR, because as we can tell that from the new changes to diamond and above that still work almost the same way as before without a couple SR difference in PbSR. PbSR is a different additional modifier for us people in plat and below in what i can only guess is extreme circumstances of obvious stat differences from the norm at that level. Gradual increases in skill will not trigger pbsr. Pbsr seems to work greater on new accounts when the handicap mmr system has a greater standard deviation.

This is also why those in higher games will be matched based on their MMR, not their SR when they decay. MMR is the real number.. SR is a fake number that gives a placebo effect to players. After decay, SR still drastically increases to try to bring the player back up to their hidden MMR so that it will display properly in the UI when matches are formed. You won’t find a decayed GMs solo queuing in low diamond.. but you will see decayed players with diamond logo in GM games when the MMR can’t find a fair balanced match.

The whole system is designed to fake a competitive system while protecting their MMR system that works really well in finding even games for the most part. The community wanted a comp mode, but the company didn’t want the mode to be bogged down with unfair and lopsided matches.

They will not go back to it because of the big backlash in season 2 or 3 when they reset the MMR for comp with all the lopsided matches until the system evened itself out.

The system is a flawed and fake competitive system. To use it as a symbol of skill to harass others for lack of it, is a gross misrepresentation of what the SR number really means to blizzard.

But not only that, you assume I don’t have a PH.D.

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