Hide n Rez was a symptom, not the problem

General Discussion
02/15/2018 09:18 PMPosted by Terranguard
02/15/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Xian396
...how is it effective? i mean aside from it being the legit strat of baiting enemy ults. it would've sucked because you'd be letting your team enter a 5v6 fight without their primary healer if you hid from the start. you're team would have been in a significant disadvantage. the enemy team doesn't even have to waste ults to bulldoze a team with a primary healer especially a 5v6 one.
I start hiding once 1-2 teamates go down because I know they'll push with 2 picks, usually with ults.

Then you made a very smart play, but that wasn't Hide & Rez. That was called taking cover and avoiding an impending doom. If you knew the enemy was going to push the advantage the moment they got one or two picks, it was wise for Mercy to swoop around a corner and wait for the enemy to wipe out more teammates so she can remain useful. You were still in the vicinity of your team, so if your predictions were false you can still quickly jump back in and support your team.

It only hurts your team when you're Mercy and try to challenge something like Dragonblade head-on. Mercy's kit isn't designed for that and it still isn't. It's not even a matter of mindsets. It's a matter of strategy.
02/15/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Anima
The main problem wasn't SR abusers. Yes they were a problem, but the primary issue was that Mercy, to be effective, had to be away from the team fight and not participating in it. This is not fun. It has it's moments of glory, but it was not the purpose of the Devs to design a hero to be out of the fight (since everyone would target Mercy first if she was out in the open)and then come in and ult. It wasn't FUN for that to be the strategy of using her, and it wasn't FUN for all the work your team just did clearing out the enemies to be undone at the literal push of a button.

Valkyrie might not be the right answer. But what they are trying to do with Mercy is make her be an active participant in the first person shooter, and make her utility not as frustrating to play against, or as formulaic as "all we have to do is find the Mercy and kill her first".


Only the worst Mercy's played like that
https://youtu.be/ZykeYW3M2fI

So it's the bad players who encouraged hidenrez? Hmmm
What did this top 500 player
Just say?
Actual good mercy players showing good hiding spots or tips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP8KdXlUqyM (later on he shows some hiding tips)

https://aminoapps.com/c/overwatch/page/blog/how-to-ult-as-mercy/MNmV_LlHku7Y5Vb2xN6wQmvrLaGaZ70bzq (guide on how to rez, 2 types of rez: tempo and huge rez, huge rez requires hiding. still no mention of performance based SR)

https://www.reddit.com/r/OverwatchUniversity/comments/6h1a3f/importance_of_hiding_when_playing_mercy/?st=jdpj0eju&sh=88d2a355 (hiding is not always the best choice, but it has its uses)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4z5y70/playing_mercy_hide_then_res/?st=jdpj1sly&sh=a4ffc948 (look at the comments)

https://www.reddit.com/r/OverwatchUniversity/comments/6iph76/finding_mercy_countering_the_rez_and_how_to_play/?st=jdpj2voq&sh=6187be15 (how to hunt down a hiding Mercy)

Performance based SR is never mentioned. Hiding wasn't necessary for every rez, but hiding as Mercy was undoubtedly very common (maybe a couple times a game), and it had nothing to do with performance based SR.

Google "Mercy rez hiding" and NONE of them that were actually made back then mention performance based SR. They did it because, as many of them state, it was sometimes the best thing to do as Mercy to have the biggest impact. If tempo rezzing wasn't the best choice, then hiding and then mass rezzing was another option. These are the opinions of people who mained Mercy back then. Not people who may or may not have even played back then who are trying to make assumptions about what happened.

As you can see from my links, good players who mained Mercy (with SRs higher than half of the people in this thread combined) were consistently using it as a legitimate strategy to secure a win, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with performance based SR. You guys are trying to rewrite history to craft it into your own narrative. I see this same thread pop up every other day, and it's always filled with made up stuff that goes directly against what I remember, and what I can prove.
I don't care anymore about old Mercy. I just want new Mercy to feel better to play and make a difference in a fight. I wish Rez was earnable, that way it would depend on skill and then it could be instant therefor I could use it in a team fight. I don't care if I don't have it as often. I want this ability to be useful.

Also I want Mercy's ult to have an impact. I feel so useless when I use Valkyrie, I can't do anything to help my team. I can't negate ults, I can't properly support offensive ults. I can't save my team with Valkyrie.
For the last bloody time...

Hide and Res was not done to game the SR system. It was done because those who did it viewed that strategy as the best way to get to a win. Even if it outright reduced SR gains, people would've still done it because a win is always better than a loss.

Please, stop fooling yourselves. The fact that you people still think it was done purely because of SR manipulation is astounding to me.

While I'm here, might as well as poke holes in your other points.

1) Wouldn't actually solve jack squat. Most of the time you find yourself having to fly to the middle of the point after hiding anyways. In those few cases where you could do it from behind cover, all that would change is you would have to peek out and press Q right as you do so. LoS would not solve anything.

2) An E ability would never outweigh the potential gains from Hide 'n Res. Unless it was strong enough to outweigh the possibility of having to bring back 5 dead teammates (which would require a basic ability to be pretty damn strong to outweigh the max value of an ult), Hide 'n Res would still be a thing when the time came to make a choice. It wouldn't reduce the rate at which people did it at all, just give those who didn't something more to do.
02/15/2018 09:18 PMPosted by Terranguard
<span class="truncated">...</span>how is it effective? i mean aside from it being the legit strat of baiting enemy ults. it would've sucked because you'd be letting your team enter a 5v6 fight without their primary healer if you hid from the start. you're team would have been in a significant disadvantage. the enemy team doesn't even have to waste ults to bulldoze a team with a primary healer especially a 5v6 one.
I start hiding once 1-2 teamates go down because I know they'll push with 2 picks, usually with ults.


You should have tempo rezzed at this point. That way you can catch them with their pants down when they push into a full 6 expecting an easy wipe.
Hide n' Rez was a STRATEGY, not an exploit. It's like arguing that using a building for cover is "unfun", so all maps are now just completely flat empty space. Their argument was incredulous on a multiverse scale. My reaction when I tested Mercys new ult in PTR was "this has got to be a joke".

They planted a problem that didn't exist into players minds, just like advertisers do, then offered to sell you the fix for it, and everyone becomes so worked up debating the "fix" they forget the problem doesn't exist. The real reason is they want OWL to look fast paced and action packed to the 5 viewers it'll have a year from now, it's that simple.

The sooner OWL dies the better, it's the actual source of the reworks no one is asking for. The game is being balanced for spectators, not players.
02/15/2018 09:14 PMPosted by D3LT4
Hide and res might not have been needed for lower ranks, but that was the basic and fundamental part of mercy's kit for anything above masters, unless you were doing a 1 or 2 at most hero reses. Because in higher levels, people would murder a mercy immediately and wouldn't allow her to pull off a res. So the solution they found was to hide somewhere and res. Which was frustrating to have on your team, and frustrating to deal with. For obvious reasons, frustrating to have on your team, because the mercy spent half her time hiding somewhere not to be immediately killed and if she did, then a whole fight was wasted and ruined thanks to her.

And it was annoying to deal with it, because you might have killed her once or twice, but eventually she would have popped off her ultimate which you could do nothing about it.

Mercy 1.0 is dead. There will never ever be a revert. Get over it. Move on. She's more viable than that version anyways. You find her boring? Play multiple heroes so that playing her alone wouldn't bore you. That's how other players function. They play multiple heroes. Keeps things fresh and entertaining.


Why is it all the posts that use actual logic and are right, get the most downvotes. Probably cause are Mercy mains don't want anything being done to their queen cause Mercy mains f**king worship her...its kinda wierd tbh
02/15/2018 10:05 PMPosted by DeadKnight
https://youtu.be/ZykeYW3M2fI

So it's the bad players who encouraged hidenrez? Hmmm
What did this top 500 player
Just say?

Yet the very same "Top 500" player who encouraged it wanted it to be removed from existence and hated Mercy players who used the same tactic against him.

I think it's safe to assume that guy isn't the most reliable example when it comes to discussing about anything.
02/15/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Edgelord
02/15/2018 09:14 PMPosted by D3LT4
Hide and res might not have been needed for lower ranks, but that was the basic and fundamental part of mercy's kit for anything above masters, unless you were doing a 1 or 2 at most hero reses. Because in higher levels, people would murder a mercy immediately and wouldn't allow her to pull off a res. So the solution they found was to hide somewhere and res. Which was frustrating to have on your team, and frustrating to deal with. For obvious reasons, frustrating to have on your team, because the mercy spent half her time hiding somewhere not to be immediately killed and if she did, then a whole fight was wasted and ruined thanks to her.

And it was annoying to deal with it, because you might have killed her once or twice, but eventually she would have popped off her ultimate which you could do nothing about it.

Mercy 1.0 is dead. There will never ever be a revert. Get over it. Move on. She's more viable than that version anyways. You find her boring? Play multiple heroes so that playing her alone wouldn't bore you. That's how other players function. They play multiple heroes. Keeps things fresh and entertaining.


Why is it all the posts that use actual logic and are right, get the most downvotes. Probably cause are Mercy mains don't want anything being done to their queen cause Mercy mains f**king worship her...its kinda wierd tbh
Just how it is around here at the moment. Mass rez was like EVERYTHING to some people. It's a process to work through it for them.
All they care about is money
02/15/2018 10:00 PMPosted by inplane
It only hurts your team when you're Mercy and try to challenge something like Dragonblade head-on. Mercy's kit isn't designed for that and it still isn't. It's not even a matter of mindsets. It's a matter of strategy.


He he heee... Sometimes it works :-3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2ZLS35C48M
02/15/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Slyther0829
For the last bloody time...

Hide and Res was not done to game the SR system. It was done because those who did it viewed that strategy as the best way to get to a win. Even if it outright reduced SR gains, people would've still done it because a win is always better than a loss.

Please, stop fooling yourselves. The fact that you people still think it was done purely because of SR manipulation is astounding to me.

While I'm here, might as well as poke holes in your other points.

1) Wouldn't actually solve jack squat. Most of the time you find yourself having to fly to the middle of the point after hiding anyways. In those few cases where you could do it from behind cover, all that would change is you would have to peek out and press Q right as you do so. LoS would not solve anything.

2) An E ability would never outweigh the potential gains from Hide 'n Res. Unless it was strong enough to outweigh the possibility of having to bring back 5 dead teammates (which would require a basic ability to be pretty damn strong to outweigh the max value of an ult), Hide 'n Res would still be a thing when the time came to make a choice. It wouldn't reduce the rate at which people did it at all, just give those who didn't something more to do.
Why is shouting into a void so addictive? Lol.
02/15/2018 09:17 PMPosted by Osprey
02/15/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Anima
but the primary issue was that Mercy, to be effective, had to be away from the team fight and not participating in it.
Lolwhat?
The optimal way to play Mercy was to never leave your team, keep everyone topped up, and only dodge a fight if you knew ults were about to pop off.
You are a Mercy main with no comp sr ??? I'm sorry but the input you have on competitive play on Mercy has zero impact .
I wish more OW media brought more attention to hero balance. They only pretend like it's an issue after a dev says "hero x is being buffed." I applaud YourOverwatch for the sym re-rework video before it was confirmed, look at the un-ignorable attention it brought.
I never hid and Rez I was in the fight and if 2 we’re down I’d Tempo rez
02/15/2018 10:05 PMPosted by DeadKnight
https://youtu.be/ZykeYW3M2fI

So it's the bad players who encouraged hidenrez? Hmmm
What did this top 500 player
Just say?


OH... Him!!!
In THAT video he was bullying the Mercy player into a play-style none of us like. Also, if you look at xQc's history,
1) He HATES, with a purple passion, Mercy.
2) He has been banned repeatedly for unjustly Reporting people he just got into games with (reason put... "F*** You")
3) He is a Pro player AND has been fined thousands of dollars for his abusive nature.
4) He is also (when asked by ING) was the first to Blurt out that Mercy should be removed from the game.

But give Mercy a rework to where even Mercy players say she was overpowered...
He was fighting his other teammates to play her.


02/15/2018 10:06 PMPosted by Whiskeyjack
As you can see from my links, good players who mained Mercy (with SRs higher than half of the people in this thread combined) were consistently using it as a legitimate strategy to secure a win, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with performance based SR. You guys are trying to rewrite history to craft it into your own narrative. I see this same thread pop up every other day, and it's always filled with made up stuff that goes directly against what I remember, and what I can prove.


Just because high level players does NOT mean that the majority of us used that play style.

But, for the sake of argument, lets take your view of it. What do many of the DPS do once they gets their Ult?
McCree HE HIDES, gets behind the the enemy and uses it. NOT fighting, leaving his team 5 vs. 6 for a minute or so.
Reaper HE Hides or Teleports behind enemy team to drop down on them, leaving his team 5 vs. 6 for about a minute or less.
Hanzo, he hides BEHIND A WALL to Pop his Ult.
Tracer, she sprints forward dropping her ult then rewinds away (really funny when they do that and fall into the drink)
D.Va can HIDE above the enemy and drops her Meka down on the enemy team, or rockets up above everyone and pops ult.
Junkrat HIDES away from the enemy team to pull his ult, at least if he is smart and wants to survive.

There, I just named 4 DPS and 1 Tank that are hiding or can hide to pull their Ults, and then there is Tracer who is so fast that she is just THERE to pull hers and disappears just as quickly. Leaving the rest of their team vulnerable to the enemy in a 5 vs. 6 scenario. HECK, D.Va and Junkrat got a rework so that IF they happened to be too close to their Ult explosion they no longer take damage (Tracer is STILL effected by her Ult).

MAYBE we should look at those Ults and Nerf them?

No?!?! Why not? Oh yeah because that would take away your Insta Kills...

That WAS the whole reason that they gave Mercy her ability IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! To counteract all of the heavy handed team killing Ults by bringing back the ones just killed off. Y'all just hated that so much you wined about it, especially xQc, till the developers changed it. Then when Mercy became Over Powered, even Mercy's were saying it needed to be toned down, and they NERFED her into the ground and Mercy Players ask for EITHER a Rework or a Revert y'all cry "No,!!! Rez has no place in a FPS. Get Rid of it. Mercy is Balanced she doesn't need a buff."
Funny that, look up the definition of "First Person Shooter" in any dictionary or on the net. NOT ONE of them say that a FPS cannot have a Resurrection ability. Y'all just don't want your Ult Fest showboating... ummm I mean "hard work" taken away and you not have the PoG at the end of a match. Admit it to yourselves, if not to anyone else.
Yes 100%! Thank you for making this post!
The way I played Mercy 1.0's rez (Got me into Masters, Never tried to stat pad) was to usually go for the temp rez whenever it could help turn the fight in our favour UNLESS I knew the other team had an ult stack. Once the other team has an ult stack I will do what ever I have to do to not get caught up in that storm of death. So I usually hid in those situations and it was the right thing to do.

Mercy's who say they ALWAYS tempo rez'd and never hid to avoid ult stacks are lying.

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