Breaking down why Moira is Overpowered

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What's really so wrong with a low risk high reward support?
02/15/2018 07:44 PMPosted by DevilBurner
What's really so wrong with a low risk high reward support?
low skill, not risk. I fimd her to be easier than mercy. Positioning as mercy is tough, moira doesn't give a crap if she gets caught out of position bcs of fade.
Damn Kragie's aim was !@#$ during that clip wtf?

Moira strong af and easy ngl. It's funny seeing people defend her in the same way they defend Tracer. Like that post of bendubz or whatever like 5 posts above mine. Burst damage is the answer!! Just like Tracer... Kind of ironic but that's nothing new for these forums.

Is she OP? Possibly. I expect her to be tuned in the future. I find this balance discussion surrounding her pretty interesting though.
02/15/2018 07:49 PMPosted by Killbill
02/15/2018 07:44 PMPosted by DevilBurner
What's really so wrong with a low risk high reward support?
low skill, not risk. I fimd her to be easier than mercy. Positioning as mercy is tough, moira doesn't give a crap if she gets caught out of position bcs of fade.
Low skill is low risk lol
such hate towards dps mains. support mains are allowed to say 'git gud" without getting downvoted? smh
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A few counterpoints to what you're saying here:

1. Moira absolutely does have trade-offs. She doesn't bring any utility to the table. Instead, she just brings raw healing output alongside some decent damage contribution, and nothing else. This is a huge trade-off compared to the other healers, who all have utility abilities that are amongst the strongest abilities in the entire game. Ana has anti-heal and sleep dart, Zen has discord, Lucio has speed boost, and Mercy has resurrect. These are ALL abilities that are so strong that they've been the foundation of metas. Moira has nothing like that. What she has instead is higher raw healing + damage output, alongside good mobility (better than Ana and Zen at least, but not necessarily Mercy and Lucio). If Moira didn't have that higher raw output, her lack of utility would make her plainly underpowered.

2. In addition, another more nuanced trade-off for Moira is that she really is the worst healer in the game at dealing with parts of maps that have important high ground. If Moira is on the low ground, she basically can't do anything to help teammates on high ground. This is because her heal's distance is too short to reach teammates on high ground at the angle you'd need to be at to have line of sight to them. Meanwhile, her healing orb can very briefly affect high ground, but if you shoot it at an upwards trajectory towards high ground, it's typically going to do almost nothing before it's not near teammates anymore. Meanwhile, Moira is mobile but she lacks vertical mobility to get up to high ground quickly when she's on low ground. This distinguishes her from EVERY other healer in the game, all of whom can still help out teammates on high ground while they're on low ground. Ana and Zen can both heal teammates while sitting a long distance away at an angle where you can see teammates on high ground. Meanwhile, Mercy and Lucio both can simply get up to high ground quickly themselves. So, for instance, think about something like Point A Numbani. Fights often occur on both high and low ground. Moira is the only healer in the game who will find it quite difficult to heal teammates on high ground if she's on low ground. You may respond that Moira just should stay on high ground then. But that's not realistic, because that would prevent her from contesting points or effectively healing teammates on low ground who need help (which the short distance of her heal will typically prevent her from doing if she doesn't drop down and get closer to them).

3. I'm not sure it really matters what Kragie said in that video. There's no reason a Tracer shouldn't be able to win a fight against Moira. Will it be harder than beating a Zen? Sure. But Tracer is one of the only heroes with enough mobility to easily continue fighting with a Moira after she uses Fade. She also couldn't care less about Moira's damage orb, due to her ability to easily just blink away from it. And once a Moira has burned through those abilities, she very clearly loses the fight to Moira. Yes, the need to bait out the Fade combined with the fact that Moira can self-heal means that it's a more drawn-out fight for a Tracer than it is against other supports. This gives Moira's team more time to react and peel for her, which can prevent Tracer from getting the kill. But if Moira is on her own a bit or her teammates aren't peeling well (both of which happen quite a lot), Tracer really should not have a problem winning a 1v1 with a Moira. As a Moira player, I can tell you that there's nothing I fear more than a Tracer who consistently goes after me (particularly if my team isn't very organized).

4. Those pick rate and win rate numbers really aren't as high as you think. There is a vast difference between a 10-11% pick rate and a 15% pick rate. It's basically a hero being played 60% of the time vs. 90% of the time. That 10-11% pick rate isn't that crazy when it's in context with the fact that there's not many healers in the game (and yet you need healers), there's even fewer main healers (which you typically want at least one of), and the community believes that both of those other main healers (Mercy and Ana) are relatively weak right now (and not simply weak in comparison to Moira, but just weak, period).

Neither is the win rate as big a deal as you think. There are 6 heroes with higher win rates in PC GM (the metric you were using), including two heroes who also have very high pick rates (D.Va and Zen). You mention that her pick rate is so high so the win rate is crazy. But this is the type of situation where there's a massive difference between 10-11% pick rate and 15% pick rate. When a hero is picked almost 100% of the time, any tiny variance from a 50% win rate actually indicates that that hero is winning a huge percent of the games where only one team has that hero. But when the hero is picked only like 60% of the time, the same thing is simply not true. Just to illustrate, when she is only picked 65% of the time (which is exactly where she's at in PC GM this week), there's actually only going to be a Moira on both teams 42% of the time.

And, in any event, you can't really look at GM win rates to determine any concrete statistical point regarding how often a hero wins when they're only on one team. This is because GMs on average have a win rate substantially higher than 50% (notice only two heroes have a sub-50% win rate in GM this week). This is basically because they don't get stuck in games with players in higher ranks than them (since they're the best), while the opposite does happen. Put differently, Moira's win 55% in GM partially because GM Moira players are sometimes just in games where they're dominating Masters and Diamond players. And that happens on pretty much every hero for GM players (as evidence by the >50% win rate in GM on like virtually every hero).

The truth regarding Moira's win rate is this: She has a 10.46% pick rate overall on PC, and a 51.47% win rate. Here's what that means statistically: Teams pick her 62.76% of the time. That means that 39.4% of the time there is a Moira in both teams. In 13.9% of games, neither team has a Moira. And in the other 46.7% of the time, one team has a Moira. So now let's say that 1,000 matches were played. 394 matches would have two Moiras, 139 would have zero Moiras, and 467 would have one Moira. In other words, Moira would be played 1,255 times (467+394*2=1255). We know that Moira has a 51.47% win rate. That means that out of those 1,255 times Moira was played, she achieved 646 wins (1,255*0.5147=646). Of course, 394 of those wins came in the 394 matches where both teams had her, since obviously one of the Moira players won in each match. So that leaves Moira getting her remaining 252 wins in the 467 matches where she is only played by one team. That gives Moira a 53.96% win rate in matches where only one team has her. Is that good? Of course. But it's not a whole lot different from Zen's win rate in matches in general, and it's wildly different from the situation we used to have with Mercy, where similar analysis showed that she had over an 80% win rate in matches where only one team had Mercy.

First quality reply in 10 pages wow thanks

Ok lets go

1- she brings more healing and damage than any other healer, that is pretty useful in itself compared to a skillshot like sleep that might or not happen, lucio speed is not useful 100% of the time, healing and damaging IS, and Zen always brings utility, hes very strong and balancee overall

What moira brings is useful 100% of the time

2- If you throw an orb to highground it will heal for a good amount before it keeps flying though

And there is usually a 2nd healer that can do it, so in reality that situation rarely happens

3- Straight out wrong, Moira wins against tracer anyday, not just kragie says it

Ask any good tracer player if you should really fight moira 1v1 and if you can win more times than you lose

4- having highest pickrate and a very high winrate means the hero is pretty strong

Overall across all ranks moira still excels as the highest picked hero with a pretty high winrate

You make some good points, however that doesnt deny Moira is overpowered compared to other healers

Stats are rising btw, from my experience theres a moira atleast 90% of the matches, been watching xqc stream for like 6 games and every game had a moira in it

Thanks for a well thought reply tho

1. Yes, damage and healing is quite useful. But so is having a game-changing utility ability. You said Moira has no trade-off, but the clear trade-off is the lack of a powerful utility ability. The other healers don't have to be using their utility abilities all the time for those abilities to be incredibly powerful. For instance, Lucio might just speed boost his team through a choke and then switch to healing, but that initial speed boost is a huge deal. Moira's whole balance proposition is that she gives you consistent output but doesn't have the same potential to make big plays like the other support heroes do. You're focusing on her strength and ignoring the obvious drawback.

2. If you throw an orb onto high ground from the low ground, it'll often do only ~75 healing (and sometimes less; it all depends on how sharp the angle you're throwing from is). That's not very good for an ability on a 10-second cooldown. In this situation, she can get more healing from the orb the further away from the high ground you are (since you can get a flatter angle), but the further away you are, the longer it takes for the orb to actually get to its destination. So the orb either comes in at a sharp angle and does very little healing, or it comes in at a flatter angle and does more healing but takes so long to get there that your teammate may have already died or moved by the time it arrives.

As for having another healer to heal people on high ground, that's true, but it's still a clear disadvantage to have one of your supports (particularly your main healer) be quite ineffective at healing in certain pretty common situations. You don't want to be left in situations where your off-healer is the only one that can deal with a situation where your team needs lots of heals on high ground. Not having a main healer who can effectively deal with a common situation is a very clear downside. This is, of course, map (and even point) dependent, but it can be pretty bad on points with lots of high ground like Point A Numbani.

3. I don't really know what to tell you here. I've played quite a bit of both heroes, and I can say that I fear Tracers as Moira and don't fear Moiras as Tracer. I'm just not sure how one could come to the conclusion that Tracer wins the 1v1 with Moira. Moira only does 50 damage per second to Tracer while Tracer does WAY more damage to Moira. Moira basically can't use the damage orb effectively against Tracer because Tracer can instantly blink away from it. And since Moira doesn't have burst damage to worry about, Tracer can get the most out of Recall, leaving her with effectively virtually 300 hp in that matchup. Even if Moira had 100% accuracy (which won't realistically be even close to the case against a Tracer) it will literally take Moira almost 6 seconds to kill Tracer. If the Tracer can't kill Moira in 6 seconds, then I don't really know what to say.

If you think you're losing 1v1s to Moira as Tracer, it's almost certainly because Moira's survivability is stalling the fight long enough for her teammates to notice their healer is in trouble and put lots of damage on you. In that sense, Moira is a decent matchup against Tracer compared to other supports. But she just objectively does NOT win the 1v1.

4. It is empirically untrue that Moira's pick rate and win rate are rising. Overbuff shows us the pick rate and win rate for heroes on a day by day basis. Moira's pick rate ramped up each day for the first week after the Mercy nerf, and since then has remained essentially completely steady. In fact, that 7th day after the Mercy nerf was actually the highest pick rate she has had. The pick rate is not rising. And the win rate is definitely not rising. Moira's win rate rose immediately after the Mercy nerfs, but it has actually gone down a slight bit from where it was those first few days after the Mercy nerf. It's on a very slight downward trend it would seem; the last three days have been some of Moira's lowest win rate days since the Mercy nerf.

And in case you're wondering, the same thing is generally true in GM as well. The day-by-day stats are more volatile for GM, since there's a relatively low sample size, but at GM we see Moira's pick rate going steadily up in the first week after the Mercy nerf and then basically holding steady after that. And we see Moira's win rate going up after the Mercy nerf, but not currently being as high as it was the first few days after the Mercy nerf.
You play Tracer at a GM level and you’re complaining about Moira???

You completely can completely burst her down with the level of damage YOUR main does.

You must be bad dps if you’re getting killed by Moira a lot.

God forbid supports be able to fight back for once.
pne of the most defining characteristics of this game is that players can compete at the highest levels with mediocre mechanical skill but amazing game sense.

This feature is effing awesome because it means nobody has to be stuck in silver due to not having extensive pc fps experience. It is also awesome because what makes vcompetitive video games awesome is not seeing who can click on someone's head more efficiently but rather teamwork problem solving, behavioral pattern recognition etc. sure watching mechanical skill is cool but it should never be the centerpiece of a video game.
Esports are catching onto this now since that trend was kicked off by league of legends. And it is the best thing to ever happen to video games. End of thread.
i love how nobody can just detach themself from there hero and not think about there own self interest when talking about game balance. First off lets talk about basics in team based shooters like tf2 and overwatch the dps is supposed to have advantage on the support, in tf2 medic does not go out and kill the soldier.
2. moira is litterally invincible vs every dps pretty much. All you have to do is spam AD Crouch get your self heal if the dps hits tons of shots fade out if you dont have fade(very unlikely) throw a healing orb at the ground ad crouch till you get the kill or until you have too back off with fade. Moira either gets a kill or can run away is basically how her kit works.
3. everyone telling the OP to get good he 4050 GM prolly better than 99.9% of the players on this whole forum lol.
4. Raw healing output between orb and her spray she can heal multiple targets. This is why moira is truly broken she heals 155 health per second too 3-4 close targets at a time lets say 3 in this case thats 465 health healed per second its outrageous no other healer does something like this unless its an ultimate even ana the most skilled healer in the game can heal 160 per second max 1 target.
5. moira is in need of a nerf its very clear just hope it doesnt take as long as mercy did.
TLDR (of every post by tracer mains): Supports are suppose to be our free food. They have been for 8 seasons. Wtf blizzard, why is this support able to fight back?
She is NOT OP, but can we at least agree she does not take skill to use, aka you just look at people or bounce a forever-bounce ball around to do all the aiming you would fail to do as any manual aiming hero?
The trade-off is less damage than winston's feather duster gun for chrissake.
It's like a junkrat 1-trick calling pharah OP.

Here's video evidence of the best junkrat saying you can't kill pharah as junkrat.

Meanwhile let's just pretend like Widowmaker, Soldier 76, D.Va, and McCree don't exist.

Ever tried to kill D.Va as widowmaker? Ever tried to kill Reaper as winston? Does that mean they're OP or is moira simply tracer's first glimpse of a hard counter?
02/15/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Pierrito
"Wrong, it's not the fact that Moira can fight back, it's the fact that Moira has ALL the advantages and her kit sets her to win the fight vs the majority of the DPS Roster"

You know that Tracer and Genji for example normally have ALL the advantages against the support characters? Don't cry just because a Support can fight back now.

Stop nerfing supports into punchbags for DPS. Git gud

have you ever been in a 1v1 against a moira
  • her beam goes through genjis deflect
  • her range makes it impossible for characters that use flight as an escape
  • her biotic orbs will go across the map and kill a person she wasn't even aiming for
  • the combined damage between her beam and orbs are far past what any other dps put out
  • the healing she receives from damaging an enemy makes her so unkillable
  • The fact that her weapon doesnt require ammo makes her so dangerous compared to sym, zen, ana, lucio
  • I dont see any reason to not nerf her, they've shown how far they're willing to go with nerfs look at mercy, i dont see why balancing moira would be a massive nerf
    I was watching some of the other tips against every hero videos, and surefour with Mcree, and the guy for soldier had tips for against moira. The helix melee seems to get the kill; same with a flash and headshot :p (though, the mcree tip was to wait until moira ults.)
    id be happy if they just got rid of that stupid !@#$ing damage orb that lasts for 40 years and travels from illios all the way to the lunar base damaging everyone in the roster for 400 damage before it expires

    or just make it bounce once this never ending orb is dog %^-*
    02/15/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Pulse
    Massive downvotes inc

    How many accounts do you own and why?
    For those of you entering the thread, to summarize:

    OP is an idiot who thinks mechanics and skill mean everything and has the mind set of a plat but is GM for his skill alone. Also, he uses anecdotal evidence by using the word of another Tracer main who isn't that good as his argument's basis.

    So careful shattering OP's fragile glass house :)
    Damage dealing players will keep making these threads for any/every support hero until no one wants to play supports anymore.

    After everyone stops playing supports it would be less optimal to play a tank. Shortly after no one plays supports tanks will stop playing tanks.

    The 6 Damage dealer META will have been achieved and all players who main that role will rejoice.
    Wanna know what hero is !@#$ing OP?


    Moira it's ok and she can counter you :)

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