Breaking down why Moira is Overpowered

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02/15/2018 10:53 PMPosted by go123452
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This just in, damage dealing characters are designed to kill supports. How would Tracer or Genji by viable if Moira did more damage? Moira is able to heal and they can't. How is Widowmaker supposed to be viable if Ana could do 150 damage on bodyshots? This is basic game design. Just because I main support doesn't mean I understand what my role is. Supports get help from their teamates to protect them from flankers. Supports then help their team by providing utility based buffs, healing and supplemental damage. I can't believe saying that healers doing more damage than dps would be broken is controversial. Sometimes I want to scream that Moira is overpowered even though she isn't just to bring out the support main hive mind that is this forum.


How can Mccree be viable with his 140 DPS if Zenyatta did 150 DPS.
How can Genji be viable with 84 DPS if literally every support except Moira had a higher DPS than him.

Oh wait.

It isnt a unbreakable hard rule, but just a guideline that if a support does more damage than a DPS, there is a trade off.

Mccree fires twice a second. Thats 280 DPS. Genji does 191.52 DPS with his alternate fire. If your numbers were actually correct, Mcree and Genji would be 100% trash heroes. For the record, Zenyatta actually does 230 DPS, only when his target is Discorded does he do any more. In addition, Mccree has a stun to make his targets easier to hit and an ultimate that kills things.. Genji has an ability that reflects all damage and an ability that does 50dmg and resets on kills, in addition to any ability that kills even more things. I find it funny that you used Zenyatta, the support that does the least healing in exchange for the most damage, to further your claim. Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your claim is wrong. Damage heroes will always do more damage than healing heroes, just like healing heroes will do more healing than damage heroes. This isn't very hard to understand.
You know a thread is going places when the very first sentence is insulting the very playerbase he's trying to appeal to...
Hello! im a support main, not a dps main

im just tired of moira being everything that ana is not

survivability? better

damage? better

healing? better

mobility? better?

ability to handle dive? better

sleep and nade dont make up for these things.

yet they have no plans to buff ana. its stupid and sad and i want to see a high skill support be able to get more value if they play well.
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How can Mccree be viable with his 140 DPS if Zenyatta did 150 DPS.
How can Genji be viable with 84 DPS if literally every support except Moira had a higher DPS than him.

Oh wait.

It isnt a unbreakable hard rule, but just a guideline that if a support does more damage than a DPS, there is a trade off.

Mccree fires twice a second. Thats 280 DPS. Genji does 191.52 DPS with his alternate fire. If your numbers were actually correct, Mcree and Genji would be 100% trash heroes. For the record, Zenyatta actually does 230 DPS, only when his target is Discorded does he do any more. In addition, Mccree has a stun to make his targets easier to hit and an ultimate that kills things.. Genji has an ability that reflects all damage and an ability that does 50dmg and resets on kills, in addition to any ability that kills even more things. I find it funny that you used Zenyatta, the support that does the least healing in exchange for the most damage, to further your claim. Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your claim is wrong. Damage heroes will always do more damage than healing heroes, just like healing heroes will do more healing than damage heroes. This isn't very hard to understand.


Im not counting headshots.

Also see, you literally just proved that the line "supports should not out damage DPS" is a guideline, not a law.

Supports can have a lot of paper DPS. But ultimately when push comes to shove the DPS will have the toolkit advantage that gives them the edge in a fight. Its not just about damage. Its about the ability to reliably deal it.
02/15/2018 11:39 PMPosted by go123452
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Mccree fires twice a second. Thats 280 DPS. Genji does 191.52 DPS with his alternate fire. If your numbers were actually correct, Mcree and Genji would be 100% trash heroes. For the record, Zenyatta actually does 230 DPS, only when his target is Discorded does he do any more. In addition, Mccree has a stun to make his targets easier to hit and an ultimate that kills things.. Genji has an ability that reflects all damage and an ability that does 50dmg and resets on kills, in addition to any ability that kills even more things. I find it funny that you used Zenyatta, the support that does the least healing in exchange for the most damage, to further your claim. Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your claim is wrong. Damage heroes will always do more damage than healing heroes, just like healing heroes will do more healing than damage heroes. This isn't very hard to understand.


Im not counting headshots.

Also see, you literally just proved that the line "supports should not out damage DPS" is a guideline, not a law.

Supports can have a lot of paper DPS. But ultimately when push comes to shove the DPS will have the toolkit advantage that gives them the edge in a fight.

You literally included Discord Orb in your calculation for Zeyatta's dps. How could you possibly find that okay. Zenyatta doesn't do more damage than either Mcree or Genji, headshots or no headshots. DPS should outdamage supports no matter what. That doesn't mean their primary fire needs to, I mean look at Doomfist. Actually, I think you're right. In order to get Ana back into the meta, we should make Ana's rifle do 150 damage. See what I mean? Ridiculous. There will never be a time where Supports outdamage DPS, and rightly so.
As a DPS main I can appreciate your view that Moira is annoying, and she takes more work to kill than other supports (apart from maybe Lucio but with more risk involved), but why is that a bad thing? I honestly just see Moira as an aimcheck, slightly similar to Sym in that respect. If my aim is bad that day then she'll straight out murder me. If it's good then I just shoot her in the head and she goes down very quick. I liked the comparison that someone else made on here before, where they said that fighting Moira is like fighting an alarm clock. The longer the fight goes on, the more your chances of winning decrease. So you've gotta hit her hard and early.

Basically, don't get stuck in a small room with her, and aim well, and she won't be a problem. She is headsmashingly annoying in FFA though.
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Im not counting headshots.

Also see, you literally just proved that the line "supports should not out damage DPS" is a guideline, not a law.

Supports can have a lot of paper DPS. But ultimately when push comes to shove the DPS will have the toolkit advantage that gives them the edge in a fight.

You literally included Discord Orb in your calculation for Zeyatta's dps. How could you possibly find that okay. Zenyatta doesn't do more damage than either Mcree or Genji, headshots or no headshots. DPS should outdamage supports no matter what. That doesn't mean their primary fire needs to, I mean look at Doomfist. Actually, I think you're right. In order to get Ana back into the meta, we should make Ana's rifle do 150 damage. See what I mean? Ridiculous. There will never be a time where Supports outdamage DPS, and rightly so.


Sure, even after including abilities Zenyatta has more paper DPS than Mccree. Mercy has more paper DPS than Genji.

That is the point, paper DPS means jack squat when the kit is what makes DPS heroes so good at killing. Heck, junkrat has 120 DPS, but you dont see people complaining that he does too little damage.

Thats why even if a support has a decently powerful damage output, there is no way they can actually compete with a real DPS.

Moira has a lot of paper DPS if you put her abilities together. She has no way of actually augmenting that DPS to make it dangerous to the enemy backline. Genji and Tracer for instance, have insane levels of mobility to mitigate incoming damage so they can actually deal their damage onto the target. Moira does not.
The support main downvote squad will come and downvote you but ultimately you are right. I used to make fun of yall but now I see the light.
As for your suggestions, I would prefer if it was more like zarya's beam with a light lock on so it requires real skill and not no skill. That would make her test genji and tracer's aim as long as the moira herself could aim too. Fade is too fast though, that cd should be 8s at least.

02/15/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Pierrito
"Wrong, it's not the fact that Moira can fight back, it's the fact that Moira has ALL the advantages and her kit sets her to win the fight vs the majority of the DPS Roster"

You know that Tracer and Genji for example normally have ALL the advantages against the support characters? Don't cry just because a Support can fight back now.

Stop nerfing supports into punchbags for DPS. Git gud

And what's wrong with tracer and genji having the advantages when fighting supports 1v1 when it's one of their roles? and ana, zen and lucio can fight back, but they require skill to do it. It takes 0 skill for a moira to orb/beam you and delete you from the game.
The support main downvote squad will come and downvote you but ultimately you are right. I used to make fun of yall but now I see the light.

02/15/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Pierrito
"Wrong, it's not the fact that Moira can fight back, it's the fact that Moira has ALL the advantages and her kit sets her to win the fight vs the majority of the DPS Roster"

You know that Tracer and Genji for example normally have ALL the advantages against the support characters? Don't cry just because a Support can fight back now.

Stop nerfing supports into punchbags for DPS. Git gud

And what's wrong with tracer and genji having the advantages when fighting supports 1v1 when it's one of their roles? and ana, zen and lucio can fight back, but they require skill to do it. It takes 0 skill for a moira to orb/beam you and delete you from the game.


There is nothing wrong with a flanker having an advantage.

There is something wrong when a support needs to be a tier or two skill levels higher than the flanker in order to have a chance of fighting back. There is something wrong when the flanker can run into a 1v2, still kill the support, and sometimes get out.

Moira doesnt have the advantage. Moira levels the playing field somewhat.

Especially at higher levels Genji/Tracer still holds the cards. It just isnt a case where they can go in 1v2/1v3, kill the support, and get out.
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I said "master of attacking" to just keep things simple. The better way to put it is she excels at defending herself while at the same time excels at keeping her team alive to defend her. You can't go into her team head on because she'll just keep 4 tanks alive in front of you. You can't flank and go for her first because she'll beat you out in most 1v1 scenario's.

Also, you can talk about her "low damage output" all you want, but you also have to consider the leech effect that comes with it. Say you were to match her 50 DPS on the dot. 200 HP vs 200 HP, both taking 50 DPS, both would die at the same time, right? Wrong. Because as long as Moira's doing damage, she's getting an extra 30 HPS, meaning you have to out damage that as well. You literally have to consistently put down 80 DPS, something that only the top 1% of Soldier's can do, if you want to beat her out. Not to mention you have to do so with a much harder to handle weapon, something that doesn't have a soft-lock like Moira does.

Moira isn't technically a master at attacking, no, but her attack style is very, very forgiving when compared to actual DPS. Again, add that on top of the fact she enables quad tank (the largest team healthpool we've ever seen), and it's easy to see she has way too much going for her.


It is true that you can't necessarily rush into a team being healed by Moira and be successful, nor is it straightforward to dive her and kill her first (though you can do it if you see her use Fade).

But that is just indicative of Moira being a little bit of a different type of hero. For the most part, the Overwatch meta has basically followed a sort of formula that goes something like this: Supports are super strong and your team wins if they stay alive; DPS can kill supports; and Tanks can protect the supports. Moira throws that on its head quite a bit, because DPS can't always easily kill her. But there's also less need to kill her because she doesn't have a completely game-changing utility ability like every other healer does. So, for instance, your team is not quite as likely to win if Moira stays alive as it is if Zen stays alive, because Moira doesn't have an ability like discord. In addition, her effectiveness can be greatly curtailed by effective tank play on the other team. This is somewhat true for Ana as well, but Moira is really the most easily countered by good tanks of any healer. D.Va can delete Moira's orbs. Barriers can prevent Moira from recharging her healing. And Moira basically does pitiful damage to tanks, especially those with armor. Finally, there's less imperative to kill her than there is for supports like Lucio and Zenyatta, because Moira doesn't have an ult that can save the team from team wipes.

So basically, Moira is harder to kill for DPS, but she's less powerful if left alive than other healers are, because: (1) she doesn't have a game-changing utility ability, (2) her effectiveness can be mitigated by tanks, without even killing her; and (3) she doesn't have a team-saving ult.

This means the whole calculus changes. You don't need to kill Moira quickly in order to win the fight. You just need to mitigate her with good tank play, exploit the fact that your team will have more utility than hers, and use offensive ults that she can't negate or heal through.
While I am inclined to agree, I think her AOE burst heal itself is a utility, let alone peel for other support with utility like Zen. That means she is still as valuable as other support if you can kill her. If Moira solo heal, you will be right.
The tl;dr of the thread is

Moira is brain dead and kills me all the time! Literally unplayable! Mah SKILL! Moira OP! Only Tracer and other skilled characters mains should be in GM!

There, enjoy egging the OP's thread. He really is a piece of work c:
02/15/2018 11:58 PMPosted by go123452
There is nothing wrong with a flanker having an advantage.

There is something wrong when a support needs to be a tier or two skill levels higher than the flanker in order to have a chance of fighting back. There is something wrong when the flanker can run into a 1v2, still kill the support, and sometimes get out.

Moira doesnt have the advantage. Moira levels the playing field somewhat.

Especially at higher levels Genji/Tracer still holds the cards. It just isnt a case where they can go in 1v2/1v3, kill the support, and get out.

If the support is having trouble with tracer and genji then their dps/tanks should be peeling them away. As good as tracer and genji are, they can't fight a whole team on their own. Another option is that the healers pocket each other and then tracer/genji can't kill them and will have to either retreat or dive with team

Again, I simply don't see the problem with a support needing to be better than a dps specifically oriented towards 1v1ing supports/dps to kill them. In fact, in the case of mercy, lucio and moira the supports can just run away from the flankers.
The statistics behind this design are balanced, with supports (except for ana) having positive winrates and decent pickrates while genji and tracer are only dominant in high masters/gm.
Moira if you don't need range.
Ana if you need range.

Moira isn"t better than Ana in everything. And if you use the nade properly, it's still one of the best ability in the game.
02/16/2018 12:24 AMPosted by TedCruz
02/15/2018 11:58 PMPosted by go123452
There is nothing wrong with a flanker having an advantage.

There is something wrong when a support needs to be a tier or two skill levels higher than the flanker in order to have a chance of fighting back. There is something wrong when the flanker can run into a 1v2, still kill the support, and sometimes get out.

Moira doesnt have the advantage. Moira levels the playing field somewhat.

Especially at higher levels Genji/Tracer still holds the cards. It just isnt a case where they can go in 1v2/1v3, kill the support, and get out.

If the support is having trouble with tracer and genji then their dps/tanks should be peeling them away. As good as tracer and genji are, they can't fight a whole team on their own. Another option is that the healers pocket each other and then tracer/genji can't kill them and will have to either retreat or dive with team

Again, I simply don't see the problem with a support needing to be better than a dps specifically oriented towards 1v1ing supports/dps to kill them. In fact, in the case of mercy, lucio and moira the supports can just run away from the flankers.
The statistics behind this design are balanced, with supports (except for ana) having positive winrates and decent pickrates while genji and tracer are only dominant in high masters/gm.


Aren't you that Zodiac killer guy LUL
HOLY HELL THIS TOPIC IS CONTROVERSIAL monkaS
02/15/2018 11:36 PMPosted by CodeBlue
Hello! im a support main, not a dps main

im just tired of moira being everything that ana is not

survivability? better

damage? better

healing? better

mobility? better?

ability to handle dive? better

sleep and nade dont make up for these things.

yet they have no plans to buff ana. its stupid and sad and i want to see a high skill support be able to get more value if they play well.


Ohhh a other Support is better than ur Main ? oh yes that makes a Hero OP plz Nerf Moira and Zenyatta as well because he is better then Ana.

Also plz Nerf Roadhog, D.Va and Winston because they are better then my Main Orisa.

I really think u dont know what " Overpowerd " means

If they need to do something they need to Buff Ana but leave Moira alone
Moira is op! Here is this professional OWL player to give a tip while fighting moira as tracer.

Tracer vs Moira: She heals too much... dont engage.
(OMG MOIRA OP NERF NAO!!!!)

Genji vs Winston: He has too much health and his no aim weapon makes your mobility useless... dont engage.
(OMG WINSTON..... um.....)

P1: Winston is a genji counter so isnt this argument invalid?

Me: So you see not right? Winston counters Genji so Genji should have a hard time 1v1-ing him. The same way that Moira counters Tracer so tracer should have a hard time 1v1-ing her.

A pro player gives one tip in a video called "1 tracer tip vs every hero". Where he states if you are tracer dont 1v1 moira. You scream "OP NERF"

Does that mean if he makes a video named "1 Dva tip against every hero". Where he says if you are dva dont 1v1 zarya. Will you also scream "OP NERF"

Is zarya "rock, paper, scissoring" dva ok in your books but moira doing that to tracer some how not ok?
02/15/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Pierrito
"Wrong, it's not the fact that Moira can fight back, it's the fact that Moira has ALL the advantages and her kit sets her to win the fight vs the majority of the DPS Roster"

You know that Tracer and Genji for example normally have ALL the advantages against the support characters? Don't cry just because a Support can fight back now.

Stop nerfing supports into punchbags for DPS. Git gud


Isn't that what DPS are meant to have? DPS are meant to be able to hunt and kill supports better than supports can kill them right?

(I'm not saying Moira needs a nerf tho.)
02/16/2018 12:45 AMPosted by Popours
Moira if you don't need range.
Ana if you need range.

Moira isn"t better than Ana in everything. And if you use the nade properly, it's still one of the best ability in the game.


Tbh as Tracer I prefer fighting Moira than Ana. If I make a mistake vs Ana then I'm really in trouble. Moira's head hitbox is also much easier.
02/15/2018 04:31 PMPosted by Zaydar
There need to be different roles. If healers are better DPS than DPS, DPS are redundant
That's clearly not the case now is it?
Lucio now has Soldier's gun. Pick Soldier.

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