What's the deal with the Support vs DPS hate?

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Make love, not war friendos.

Its a bad sign when people start attacking each other over which tools they use in the game. 2/3rds of the hero roster is effective DPS so there will always be more DPS players.

I don't really care what anyone plays, I just want people to play as a team and help each other out when they are struggling. Sometimes that means you gotta switch so you can help them in the right ways. Sometimes that means you don't get to play what you want but rather whats needed so your team doesn't get stomped.

Either way I'll fill whatever the team needs, even if it means solo supporting with no tanks. Its hard enough fighting against 6 dudes. Don't make it a fight against 11, especially seeing as the game won't let me kill 5 of you.
02/16/2018 04:16 PMPosted by WaifuCannon
The characters that too many DPS mains call 'low skill' because of less reliance on pure mechanical aim, when in reality requires far more knowledge of the game, timings, and just game sense overall.


This argument is pure horse !@#$, constantly regurgitating it doesn't make it any more true.

DPS do not require or benefit any less from game sense, nor can they just shoot their way out of every situation like you all so ignorantly believe. And heroes like Mercy who have a million options for evading death certainly don't require more of it. Maybe if you were referring to Ana or Zen you'd actually have a point, but then there's always the counterpoints of DPS heroes like McCree and Hanzo.

02/16/2018 04:16 PMPosted by WaifuCannon
have to stay alive or the entire team falls apart


Their impact on the game =/= their skill requirement. What is this appeal to emotion, non-sequitur nonsense?
02/16/2018 04:25 PMPosted by Eihder
So far nothing thus dps mains are still spoiled children. tanks and supports try to play with a team.


Stop. Generalizing. DPS mains.

I’ve had too many Flankhardts in comp and there’s always that one Mercy who won’t stop pocketing Pharah.

So no. Tanks and supports do not always play with the team.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Well, this is exactly what I am talking about. Statistically, before her rework, she was, in fact, balanced.

Sometimes used, never a must pick, but not a terrible choice either. But... People complained like so, and now here we are.

People are complaining about Moira now. Zenyatta is likely to follow. And so it goes.

If you think having the ability to revive 5 fully-healed teammates is balanced I don't know what to tell you.
Outta the blue, this reminds me of a forgotten post way back.

It was a video of a PotG by Reaper, which started out with him hiding at the top of the archway riiight before the last Anubis point. As the enemy team ran in he finally dropped down and pressed Q, killing five full health opponents to the cry of "DIE DIE DIE!"

Then, right as he finished his last die, Mercy flew out of her hiding place and reversed the carnage with her cry of "HEROES NEVER DIE!"

The post's focus was about how it was unfair that Mercy was able to revive those five people by hiding and pressing Q. The very same five which were just killed by hiding and pressing Q.

I guess Reaper earned his payoff more in some intangible way? Even though it took an additional step of complexity for Mercy's literal counter ult, since it was in reaction to the first?
02/16/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Roseblite
OK, this one will sound weird, but bear with me.

Have a mode set up to where you can ONLY pick DPS.

Have a mode where you can ONLY pick support (making it a 5 man team).

DPS one no one can get to point/payload because EVERYONE dies too quickly.
Support one would last FOREVER since no one can die.

Had a Really interesting Quickplay a few days ago, my team was Tanks/Healers/DPS on defense. Their team, on ATTACK, was 5 supports with 1 Genji. We could not stop the attacking force, on Blizzard World, because no one on their team died, the Genji even being smart and sticking with the Supports.


Played Mystery Heroes once, my team on Hanamura (attack) spawned as me on Zen, another Zen, two Lucios, one Mercy and a Widow. "Interesting" I thought, and I think the other players also found it hilarious. Our Widow was sniped almost immediately, and respawned as... another Lucio. From this point on we completely steam rolled them - it didn't matter what they got, we even wrecked their poor Bastion before he barely had time to sit down in sentry form.

We made sure to heal everyone and not to let anyone die (Mercy didn't have to rez a single time). At one point I was down to 20 hp, I was healed up to full in barely a second (Mercy heals + Zen heal + Lucio amp it up). We all played beautifully and it was just a masterpiece of cooperation.

#SupportPower
02/15/2018 09:54 PMPosted by Fish
02/15/2018 09:51 PMPosted by siennarena
She wasn't balanced, lol. Though now she can be semi-useless depending on the skill of the player.


Well, this is exactly what I am talking about. Statistically, before her rework, she was, in fact, balanced.

Sometimes used, never a must pick, but not a terrible choice either. But... People complained like so, and now here we are.

People are complaining about Moira now. Zenyatta is likely to follow. And so it goes.


The issue with old mercy wasn't that she was balanced or unbalanced. Rather that she was unfun to play against, and even considered one of the most boring heroes to play in the entire game. She was quite literally a m1+Q bot. Blizzard set out to make her more fun, engaging, and viable across all competitive tiers (old mercy was a borderline troll pick after diamond). Whether they succeeded in doing that is another discussion.
its due player's mentality of:

Supports must be free kills for any dps mainly for flankers, they never must defend theirselves if they do that they are broken and worse if one kill a dps clearly that support is op, they undone their "hard" work healing or rezzing a fallen mate, ruining totally their fun.
Because teams are small (6, i.e. one person carries more weight), the game lacks a LFG system, less people want to heal than is needed, and more people want to DPS than is needed. Friction and strife are bound to occur.
Overwatch is the weirdest game I have played. The players who use the offensive (DPS) characters and make up like 70%? of the player base ...hate... people who play support and probably make up like 4% of the player base. They hate the people who want to help them.

In any other game support mains are adored, reserved raid slots, always on demand, etc.
02/15/2018 09:54 PMPosted by Fish
02/15/2018 09:51 PMPosted by siennarena
She wasn't balanced, lol. Though now she can be semi-useless depending on the skill of the player.


Well, this is exactly what I am talking about. Statistically, before her rework, she was, in fact, balanced.

Sometimes used, never a must pick, but not a terrible choice either. But... People complained like so, and now here we are.

People are complaining about Moira now. Zenyatta is likely to follow. And so it goes.
But people are also complaining about Genji and Tracer. Do we see them in every game? No.

At masters I see either of them in 1 of 3 games, same goes with Mercy. So in theory, aren't they all balanced if you don't see them in every game?

Also why is it acceptable to complain about Genji and Tracer if it's the same exact situation? There's a huge bias on these forums on multiple fronts and it's very odd.

Mercy was changed because resurrecting 4-5 people was not fun at all for the enemy team. Of course it feels great on your team, but when the enemy team did it felt absolutely terrible. On 2 CP it felt even WORSE because there's always a stalemate on the second point until you wipe them enough times.

I'm not advocating Mercy's rework-- I actually think it's awful. But the 5 man resurrect thing had to be changed in some form because it just wasn't fun at all.

All of this is coming from a flex player, so take all of this with a grain of salt.
02/16/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Chiana
Overwatch is the weirdest game I have played. The players who use the offensive (DPS) characters and make up like 70%? of the player base ...hate... people who play support and probably make up like 4% of the player base. They hate the people who want to help them.

In any other game support mains are adored, reserved raid slots, always on demand, etc.


This, give or take some budges on the %'s. In TFC/TF2 each role is valued. Engineers aren't condemned and everyone loves a good medic. Maybe it has something to do with they aren't required, so when people do play them, others have learned to appreciate the value.

That, and there isn't a constant set of buffs/reblance issues to place blame on. So TF2 gets boring sometimes because of that, but man do I miss the teamwork appreciation aspect.
02/16/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Chiana
The players who use the offensive (DPS) characters and make up like 70%? of the player base ...hate... people who play support and probably make up like 4% of the player base. They hate the people who want to help them.
It's more like the reversed, supports hate dps and there has even been some debate if the game would be better without them.

Same goes there anyway, dps are in the game to kill the enemy team, they need help to do so, so why do some supports hate them when it's their role?
You can't judge too much of the player base from the forums. Sometimes it feels like the worst of the worst come here to troll and whine. I was never aware there was a support vs dps battle raging till I came to the forums to give useless input on the Mercy changes last year lol. It's a stupid argument.

I'm a support main and I love dps mains. Thanks to many of you for watching my back. Without you we wouldn't take points or push the payloads lol.

Many in the community need to push this aside and practice team work lol.
02/16/2018 06:54 PMPosted by KaKao
02/16/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Chiana
The players who use the offensive (DPS) characters and make up like 70%? of the player base ...hate... people who play support and probably make up like 4% of the player base. They hate the people who want to help them.
It's more like the reversed, supports hate dps and there has even been some debate if the game would be better without them.

Same goes there anyway, dps are in the game to kill the enemy team, they need help to do so, so why do some supports hate them when it's their role?

Maybe it's because some DPS players hate Supports doing their role against them. "How dare enemy Supports help the enemy team and deny my kills! Nerf!" When I get slaughtered by a half-decent Tracer, I just accept the fact that Tracer will never be touched and I will have to work around her. Maybe its time people think of the same for Supports.
I don't know, but I blame Mercy mains :)
I mean, after yet another Mercy nerf look at what's going on now. they moved on and are now asking for another Support to be nerfed (Moira in this case) let's be honest I don't think they will be happy until this game becomes just another generic FPS
02/16/2018 05:35 PMPosted by GenjiTracer
02/15/2018 09:54 PMPosted by Fish
...

Well, this is exactly what I am talking about. Statistically, before her rework, she was, in fact, balanced.

Sometimes used, never a must pick, but not a terrible choice either. But... People complained like so, and now here we are.

People are complaining about Moira now. Zenyatta is likely to follow. And so it goes.


The issue with old mercy wasn't that she was balanced or unbalanced. Rather that she was unfun to play against, and even considered one of the most boring heroes to play in the entire game. She was quite literally a m1+Q bot. Blizzard set out to make her more fun, engaging, and viable across all competitive tiers (old mercy was a borderline troll pick after diamond). Whether they succeeded in doing that is another discussion.


WARNING, LONG comparison ahead

Unfair to play against... How is it fair to BE the Mercy, have her whole team wiped by not 1, not 2, but sometimes 3 to 4 Ults and her not come in and rez everyone?
NOT that I am saying Revert, though this little experiment of her Rework and 5 subsequent Nerfs to where she is BELOW the power she was at release:

Original Mercy
1) Had NO "E" ability whatsoever.
2) Her Ult could revive 1-5 other players.
3) 1 second cast time.
5) Her Pop-Gun does less damage than any other healer.
6) DIDN'T have invulnerability after Rez, so she died a LOT if she was able to pull off a "Huge Rez".

Nerfed Mercy (current Mercy)
1) "E" ability to Rez 1 person every 30 seconds
2) 1.75 second cast time for Resurrect
3) NOT Invulnerable during casting, cannot Turn or Move away from body or Rez FAILS, restarting 30 second countdown. Can be countered by being moved. Best time NOW to pull "E" is AWAY from others and/or Hiding. Wasn't "Hide and Rez" supposed to be eliminated by the whole rework?
4)Ultimate, IF you can call it that, gives
...A) Slightly better movement than walking/running, but can fly.
...B) Slightly better healing than normal to several people, but LESS than Zen.
...C) Slightly better damage-buff, but less than Orisa's.
...D) Slightly better damage from Pop-gun but with unlimited bullets.
...E) Is ONLY 15 seconds long and cannot use all 3 abilities at same time.
...F) Mercy now has BIG glowing wings, making her an instant target.
...G) Does NOT reset "E" timer, and it STILL has a 1.75 second cast time.

Now, if that was done to any DPS, what would be the reaction?

DPS/Tank Rework & Nerfed like Mercy
1) Your Ult is now and "E" ability but instead of getting from 1-6 kills it is reduced to ONLY 1 kill.
2) It has a 1.75 second cast where you cannot MOVE or turn away from targets or it fails (or they move out of rang, or you are Booped from your spot), and it WON'T complete till AFTER the 1.75 seconds are up.
3) Your Ult in now slightly increased fire power with unlimited bullets and increased speed.
4) You give off a HUGE Glow when you Ult, making you an instant target.

NOW, for those who say:
"But Pharah already does that." Pharah IS stationary, but she is also Firing while Ult is going off and is able turn. If YOU had 1.75 seconds before her "E" ability completed you would sure take her out, not that she doesn't get taken out a LOT in the middle of using her Ult now.

"McCree doesn't move much anyway." True, but he CAN move AND Turn. Also, he currently only has to keep his Ult for a short time before releasing it. IF he could not complete his new "E" ability till AFTER 1.75 seconds he would immediately be picked off.

But the MAIN thing I am getting at IS it ONLY works to kill off 1 person, not the whole team. Would YOU want to play that Hero with all these restrictions on your ultimate and "E" ability?

Mind you this would be TOTALLY Balanced. EXACTLY the same way Mercy is now, supposedly, totally balanced.
Would it be fun?
Heck no. But it's Balanced.
Was Mercy Balanced BEFORE the rework?
Mostly. It could have used some Tweaking, but it did balance out a Team Wiping Ultimate.
Was "Hide and Rez" a bad tactic?
No more than a a DPS or Tank (DPS Reaper, McCree, Hanzo, Genji, Junkrat, Pharah, Mei, Zaria, Soldier 76, Tracer, Sombra, Bastion- Tanks Reinhardt, Roadhog, D.Va) hiding behind something then pulling off their Ult. The ONLY difference being that if you didn't take out Mercy FIRST before pulling your Ult, or MULTIPLE Ults at the same time, to try to get PoG Mercy would bring back everyone you had killed. But the resounding cry from many (NOT all) of the DPS is "That's not Fair" to take all my Showboating... ummmm sorry "Hard Work" to kill off the enemy team and negate it because we missed taking out Mercy.

And now that Mercy has been "Nerfed to the floor"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FA_aEwGDBI&t=128s
many of the DPS players are crying that Moira is Over Powered and needs a Nerf...

SO yeah... Healers have no reason to be mad about what many DPS players are doing to us. There are currently 4 healers, there are 14 DPS Heroes, and 6 Tanks and who knows what class New Hero is gonna be.

Lucio Nerfed
Ana Nerfed
Mercy reworked AND Nerfed 5 times
Moira Orb Nerfed and talk about Nerfing her more
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759535973
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/17617642625

Zenyatta not Nerfed, but talk about it.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759105903

This keeps up and there will not be a single Healer that hasn't had their powers reworked and reduced while:
(to be totally fair, including tanks as well, which also get a lot of flack from DPS)

DPS
Junkrat Buffed several times (slight Nerf recently)
Symmetra is getting a Buff (FINALLY), she may be Support but does damage.
Genji Buffed
Reaper Buffed
Soldier 76 Buffed
Doomfist Buffing soon if not live already
Sombra Buffing soon
McCree Buffed
Widowmaker Buffed

Pharah movement tweaks
Bastion Nerfed, buffed, and another Buff soon
Symmetra Buffing soon (about time)
Torbjorn Buffing soon (also about time)
Hanzo Rework on Scatter Arrow in works
Mei Buffing Soon
Tracer UNTOUCHED (In my opinion, her mine should not blow her up since D.Va's and Junkrat's Ults no longer blow them up)

Tanks
D.Va Buffed (no longer killed by Ult) then Nerfed, then Buffed a bit
Orisa Buffed
Reinhardt Buffed
Roadhog nerfed then buffed a bit
Zarya Buffed

Now, I am not a conspiracy freak in any way shape or form, but there is something fishy here. Almost like there is a definite Pattern to these changes.....

So IS there a fight going on between DPS and Healers, well us healers are getting tired of taking Nerf after Nerf. All the while 99% (with the exception of Tracer) of the other Heroes are or will be getting Buffs; or Buffs after Nerfs where the buffs counteract mostly any Nerfs they have had.
Because of people like the one above me whoa re so biased that they list supports who have gotten nerfs and buffs as being nerfed and list dps who have been nerfed and buffed as being buffed. Bias like that fuels hate. When the above poster fails to mention all the talk of nerfing dps heroes then yeah you fuel hate. When you fail to mention that Mercy was OP for Six !@#$ing months and Bastion for one week thne yeah there's hate

You wanna know why there's hate OP? Because people generalise and try to push all their biases as fact. When people stop doing that then the hate will lessen
02/16/2018 06:18 PMPosted by Miaou
02/16/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Chiana
Overwatch is the weirdest game I have played. The players who use the offensive (DPS) characters and make up like 70%? of the player base ...hate... people who play support and probably make up like 4% of the player base. They hate the people who want to help them.

In any other game support mains are adored, reserved raid slots, always on demand, etc.


This, give or take some budges on the %'s. In TFC/TF2 each role is valued. Engineers aren't condemned and everyone loves a good medic. Maybe it has something to do with they aren't required, so when people do play them, others have learned to appreciate the value.

That, and there isn't a constant set of buffs/reblance issues to place blame on. So TF2 gets boring sometimes because of that, but man do I miss the teamwork appreciation aspect.

Hard to say, people have a tendency of taking people that are supposed to help them for granted and be negative and demanding of them.

All classes are loved when the player is good even the commonly hated spies and snipers, but the medic in tf2 gets the most criticism. People readily jump on criticizing a medic that isn't very good or are making mistakes or pocketing their friends. Mean while no one bothers with a bad demo who have done nothing but dying all game or a trolider who got two market garden kills for the entire round and not helping the team at all.
02/16/2018 01:55 PMPosted by HANA
Genji needs healing
Mercy needs him dead so she can rez


MORE like Genji on other side of map spamming "I need healing." over and over AND over again, while at FULL HEALTH.
Then comes back to get healing, Mercy is healing and he starts taking off before fully healed so she follows. Genji leaves her behind, not fully healed, an observant Tracer sees this, kills Mercy then the still injured Genji. Genji yells at Mercy for not healing him fully....
Saw that a LOT...

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