How to deal with TvZ

Terran Discussion
*Please do not talk about balance issues in this thread, thank you.

Getting tons of messages each day asking about how to deal with TvZ. Let's try to keep this simple and straight forward. The following build will take you to Diamond 2k if executed correctly and the build following that is a personal variation of builds used at the pro level. Note that the first build works even at the higher level games if the the OP is positioned next to you(ie LT 12/3, 6/9).

-> Diamond 2k

Standard opening:
Supply
Rax
Gas
Orbital
2nd Supply
2 Marines
---Wall off----
*Bunker harass on nat is optional at this time
Factory
Reactor on rax
2nd Gas
Bunker
Swap rax/fact and build 4 helions before moving out.

---IF Z steals 2nd gas, transition will be towards vikings, not banshees, keep this in mind--

Assuming you get the 2nd gas, move out with 4 helions and start harassing econ - zerg should not have much at this point, lings + 2 queens or a small count of roaches. Build 2 stars when helions are sent out, tech on both and double banshee. . Idea is to get the queens before working on drones.

If gas was stolen, build 1 star, reactor rax, swap the two and move out with 4 viks and supply block the Z. Overlords are normally scattered around main + nat, but check the natural locations around your base where they should be normally parked(Edge, cliff, etc).

The key is to switch roles and maintain pressure on Z and keep him locked in for the transition to midgame. If you can GG the OP at this point, good for you. Otherwise, make sure to get the CC up after the 2 initial banshees are built or after 4 viks. From here, a good amount of damage should have been done from either the 4 helions or ban/viks. (As a side note, if Z does a good job blocking ramp, placement of spines, lings, etc. -- pullback and move helions in again after banshees are out and about).

***Mid/late game***

Pretty straight forward from here -- get your natural up with 2 bunks, transition to 5 rax , 2 factory pumping thors and be sensible. If Z is going hardcore roaches, go 3 tech 2 reactor heavy maur. For muta/ling, 3 reactor 2 tech heavy rines. Keep thor production going and do a timing attack after 2 thors are produced(upgrades should start when first thor is being produced). Going into the late game scenario, look to take out Z's expansions while taking your own 3rd/4th (3 turrets + planetary). In a super late game scenario, build a bunch of rax around your 4th,5th base to help fend off ling/ultras for a bit longer until your force moves in. Act accordingly from here and you should take the game. (Again, remember to upgrade weapon).


Heres some replays, have a ton more TvZ games that haven't been uploaded yet(scroll down towards the latter TvZ reps).

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=member_replays&member_id=168247


----------

Replay page quite old and not updated but you can check my stream for the next BO (www.livestream.com/sksyen).

-> 2k+

Supply
Rax
Gas
Orb
2nd supply
Fact
2 helions move out
2 additional rax
1 tech(stim when finished),1 reactor, 3 rax should switch with fact
tech on factory(produce 2 tanks before upgrading seige)
Continually produce marines
Timing attack : Move out with 2 tanks and the marines you've produced with 3-4 scvs on autorepair
Seige outside nat, rally everything towards unit location, spread marines hold position engage to defend while pushing inwards with tanks, can also poke with groups of 5-6 marines

While this is happening, get 1 starport up while continually sending reinforcement // expand when resources allow(normally after the 4th tank is out in field).

Other obvious things to take note of:

-save scan to take out creep
-send additional scv's if needed
-do not unseige all tanks, push tanks inwards accordingly 1 at a time

If you execute correctly, game should be over. If not, look to transition into the midgame by taking your third, get +3 on infantry Asap, push and contain. No replays atm, check livestream for recent TVZ matchups. Maybe I'll update the replay page later if I'm not lazy.
Very helpful for me. Gold League. Thanks
Helion harass is useless. by the time you get 2, he'll have metabolic boost
Helion harass is useless. by the time you get 2, he'll have metabolic boost


Coming from someone who have probably never used helions before. Watch my replays/stream before commenting. Thanks.

Helion harass is useless. by the time you get 2, he'll have metabolic boost


I've got to agree with Sysken on this one. Most failed hellion harasses are directly attributable to poor micro.
great thread sksyen.
do you ever favor thor/hellion/tank in place of tank/bio? (vs muta/ling/baneling ofc)
Thanks for the link... I'll practice my commentating and learn some stuff at the same time. ^_^
I watch sKsYeN all the time and he knows what he is talking about. His stream is one of the best out there and if you really want to learn go watch it. The guy is a machine.
great thread sksyen.
do you ever favor thor/hellion/tank in place of tank/bio? (vs muta/ling/baneling ofc)


The thor helion build only works up to the 2k level. Zerg players with game sense will run circles around you if you use this build. Its simply too easy to beat as Z imo.
+1

Watching that stream gives me an idea of what i have to become to get really good and get in that top 200

After getting owned by a hydra-muta build (of all freaking things...) I'll try this out next time I play the zerg!
+1

Watching that stream gives me an idea of what i have to become to get really good and get in that top 200

After getting owned by a hydra-muta build (of all freaking things...) I'll try this out next time I play the zerg!


Stick with the mech play for now, you will see that it works like a charm at your current level.
So, hellion harass into .....banshee's if they are close position to you, or marine tank if they are far?
So, hellion harass into .....banshee's if they are close position to you, or marine tank if they are far?


Yes, but <2k just go banshees it will pretty much work 90% of the time.
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Dude...this works for real. I just went 3-0 against zerg. Only one game was close, and that was because of a mistake on my part that delayed me enough for him to get mutas out. Remember to put 2 more scv's on your first gas.....
*Please do not talk about balance issues in this thread, thank you.

Getting tons of messages each day asking about how to deal with TvZ. Let's try to keep this simple and straight forward. The following build will take you to Diamond 2k if executed correctly and the build following that is a personal variation of builds used at the pro level. Note that the first build works even at the higher level games if the the OP is positioned next to you(ie LT 12/3, 6/9).

-> Diamond 2k

Standard opening:
Supply
Rax
Gas
Orbital
2nd Supply
2 Marines
---Wall off----
*Bunker harass on nat is optional at this time
Factory
Reactor on rax
2nd Gas
Bunker
Swap rax/fact and build 4 helions before moving out.

---IF Z steals 2nd gas, transition will be towards vikings, not banshees, keep this in mind--

Assuming you get the 2nd gas, move out with 4 helions and start harassing econ - zerg should not have much at this point, lings + 2 queens or a small count of roaches. Build 2 stars when helions are sent out, tech on both and double banshee. . Idea is to get the queens before working on drones.

If gas was stolen, build 1 star, reactor rax, swap the two and move out with 4 viks and supply block the Z. Overlords are normally scattered around main + nat, but check the natural locations around your base where they should be normally parked(Edge, cliff, etc).

The key is to switch roles and maintain pressure on Z and keep him locked in for the transition to midgame. If you can GG the OP at this point, good for you. Otherwise, make sure to get the CC up after the 2 initial banshees are built or after 4 viks. From here, a good amount of damage should have been done from either the 4 helions or ban/viks. (As a side note, if Z does a good job blocking ramp, placement of spines, lings, etc. -- pullback and move helions in again after banshees are out and about).

***Mid/late game***

Pretty straight forward from here -- get your natural up with 2 bunks, transition to 5 rax , 2 factory pumping thors and be sensible. If Z is going hardcore roaches, go 3 tech 2 reactor heavy maur. For muta/ling, 3 reactor 2 tech heavy rines. Keep thor production going and do a timing attack after 2 thors are produced(upgrades should start when first thor is being produced). Going into the late game scenario, look to take out Z's expansions while taking your own 3rd/4th (3 turrets + planetary). In a super late game scenario, build a bunch of rax around your 4th,5th base to help fend off ling/ultras for a bit longer until your force moves in. Act accordingly from here and you should take the game. (Again, remember to upgrade weapon).


Heres some replays, have a ton more TvZ games that haven't been uploaded yet(scroll down towards the latter TvZ reps).

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=member_replays&member_id=168247


----------

Replay page quite old and not updated but you can check my stream for the next BO (www.livestream.com/sksyen).

-> 2k+

Supply
Rax
Gas
Orb
2nd supply
Fact
2 helions move out
2 additional rax
1 tech(stim when finished),1 reactor, 3 rax should switch with fact
tech on factory(produce 2 tanks before upgrading seige)
Continually produce marines
Timing attack : Move out with 2 tanks and the marines you've produced with 3-4 scvs on autorepair
Seige outside nat, rally everything towards unit location, spread marines hold position engage to defend while pushing inwards with tanks, can also poke with groups of 5-6 marines

While this is happening, get 1 starport up while continually sending reinforcement // expand when resources allow(normally after the 4th tank is out in field).

Other obvious things to take note of:

-save scan to take out creep
-send additional scv's if needed
-do not unseige all tanks, push tanks inwards accordingly 1 at a time

If you execute correctly, game should be over. If not, look to transition into the midgame by taking your third, get +3 on infantry Asap, push and contain. No replays atm, check livestream for recent TVZ matchups. Maybe I'll update the replay page later if I'm not lazy.


What happens if you open reactor helions and he roach rushes (6-8 roaches at 6 min)? :(
Easy. First strategy involves 2 bunks if you see roaches, second strategy will have enough rines with 1 tank close to finsihing production when he's at your ramp, more than enough to hold it off.
Thanks for that. what do you think of the 1 rax FE or FE with rax at 15 builds vs zerg. I see potential, but it's not working for me. This is of course after you've spotted a 14 hatch.
I

Helion harass is useless. by the time you get 2, he'll have metabolic boost


I've got to agree with Sysken on this one. Most failed hellion harasses are directly attributable to poor micro.


What if hes not using that gas to get metabolic boost and instead is getting roaches, roach warren... 150 mins, he needs to have those drones on mins to get it out, roach warren goes down extractor goes down that 175 mins on the spot now hes gonna need gas for roaches, hes not gonna put that gas into metabolic boost. If he got metabolic boost he wouldnt have roaches. 4 hellion harass is very very very good. Roaches are tough against hellions but they sure as hell are slow compared to them. Learn to micro.
I disagree about the Hellions (I play random). When I am ZvT I love it when they go hellions because it means their economy and ability to pump out units is crippled since thats money spent on hellions instead of more unit producing structures. I abuse this by pumping out masses of units.

2 Hellions is fine, but be careful you aren't sacrificing rax/factories because of those hellions. If they fail to do their damage worth, that really puts you behind.

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