Balance Test Map

General Discussion
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While the results data we’re getting isn’t so clear...

Global GM race distribution:
Protoss: 44.21%
Terran: 21.42%

I think that is pretty clear.
Sounds solid. Looking forward to reviews from high-level players to see how it plays out.
I think the changes are good and please leave the Roach burrow speed but the Terran air buff could really effect the TvZ because Zerg doesnt have the best anti-air units.
pfft, it is all about protoss being op and mech being up.. No one even commenting on roach buff, cause it is SUCH a useless buff...

camon blizzard, some show love to zerg, add some diversity, harras option, drop, something to come back at all those fancy enemy units!
I'm glad that at least something will happen but this still doesn't fix some of the things that protoss players do against terran or zerg. timewarp takes no skill to use and when used with blink stalker, it can literally just finish the game. Code S player lost to some random foreigner toss because of blink allin + 2 timewarps. It is incredibly easy to use and there is nothing you can do against it with skill. Would be ideal to remove it since MSC can do 10 different things already but if u can't, at least nerf so that it can't be casted twice in a second.
Whats the obsession with roach burrow move? What about sloverlord drops, nydus worms, and boruptors?
Ok, so as a bio player I have only to quit this game because I'm not already on level like JJAKJI. Bio play was the most enjoyable strategy in this game, now is there ONLY mech choice for non-progamer-korean-imba players. Thanks Blizz..
If this goes through, I think we should test splitting the mech/sky armors first. When I was upgrading tanks, I felt like 3/0 banshees were more effective late-game than 0/3 banshees.

So do vikings, armor barely matters for most mech air units, Splitting the armour wouldn't really make a difference with how it is now.
An idea Regarding Mech TvP:
The tank should simply do a tripple shot at 1/3 the damage each, like "boom-boom-boom".
-That way the tank will not become "op" in matchups like TvT and TvZ, but it will do better against Immortal shields... which is really the main problem mech's got with toss.
I think a huge factor for roach play is the need for upgrades/cost. Currently, to have viable Roach Micro you need a ridiculous amount of resources devoted to Roach Speed(100/100), Tunneling Claws(150/150), and of course, Burrow(100/100) thats 350/350 and you're still left with 0/0 roaches.

My thoughts. Reduce cost of Tunneling to 100/100 (considering you can use slow roaches if you rely on tunneling)

- OR -

Reduce cost of Burrow to 50/50. This opens up some hatch level tactics that can actually help Zerg.

Zerg have ZERO harassment options before muta. If burrow was accessible earlier (ie. cheaper) we could burrow at expansions and poke with a small amount of roaches early on. We won't be able to break our opponent with these tactics, but we could slow them down on par with hellion pokes and mc/stalker pressure.

So truth,, and to make mech viable vs P think about something that affect only TvP, like and pleaseee take a look around the lalush topic about to How to improve the Micro in Sc2...
NO NO NO!!!! No buff on mech!!! Mech is way strong against zerg right now. Do not buff mech! The EMP thing sure. That way it is viable against Protoss, but stronger against armored? NO NO NO NO!
01/02/2014 03:17 PMPosted by Nightwolf
Whats the obsession with roach burrow move? What about sloverlord drops, nydus worms, and boruptors?

Zerg has plenty of options for harassment. Corruptors are lame, but they work as well as Vikings or phoenixes do. Roaches lose a lot of meaning by the late game though, and theyre one of a very small handful of units that do.
I agree that the Nexus-Cannon is quite strong and should be nerved, but why for God's sake buff mech? TvT is a mess because of mech, Hellbats are still so strong in mid-lategame versus terran and now buff tanks so that Hellbat-Thor-Tank is more undefeatable? You gotta be kidding me.........
01/02/2014 03:20 PMPosted by JFDeimosMX
Reduce cost of Burrow to 50/50. This opens up some hatch level tactics that can actually help Zerg.

I think this is a bad idea, just think of zvz where you do a speedling opener, get a litle bit more gas for burrow, somehow manage to cancel the hatchery and burrow a ling, the other guy is forced to 1base lair/ build a spore and spread a lot of creep, giving you an even larger advantage.

Still, canceling a hatchery probably ends the game anyway :s
Increasing Siege Tank damage to armored helps in a couple areas.

1. vs Collosus Tech. Having more powerful tank damage means that focus firing Collosus with tanks becomes a more valid way of handling them decreasing somewhat Terran reliance on Vikings. Vikings are still obviously going to be the preferred method but additional tank damage has the potential of opening up more Tank/Marine playstyles in TvP's midgame.

2. vs Ultralisk tech.

3. Early game defense vs Gateway and Roach All Ins. Siege Tank numbers in the early game are never as high as in the mid game for obvious reasons and increasing the threat of a single tank helps to hold all ins significantly which opens more viable build options for Terrans in TvP and TvZ.

The big question is. Would it affect TvT too much?

I'm not so sure. The damage vs Marines and Helbats would remain the same, the damage to Structures, Thors, Vikings, Marauders and Siege Tanks would increase. I think the benefit this offers to Bio players utilizing small numbers of Tanks defensively actually outweighs the benefit it would provide to an offensive minded Mech player.

Obviously Mech's mobility would still be its greatest weakness to exploit as a Bio player, so charging and breaking a Tank line with ground units would still be difficult.
Photon Overcharge - I would like to see the time down to 30 BUT a small buff to the damage. Reward players who don't simply preemptively use the spell as a stalling tactic. Allow the opponent to come in close and then cast the spell and get the kills during the opponent retreat. There would also be increased skill in the battles as some might use the spell too late or have the MSC sniped and not get the spell. We want to see fights, not units standing outside watching the clock!

Mothership Core - I think the MSC is a bit too good on offense and either moving slower, reduced vision, or time-warp needing research would improve it. Again, to compensate it could be good to give some small buff perhaps to attack damage or to time-warp if it has to be researched.

Roach burrow - I am guessing a big reason this isn't used is because it's too gimmicky. If lings and banes could also move burrowed for example you might get a good attack comp but otherwise it seems like it is a suicide squad or desperation move. Infestors can do infested terrans and/or fungal and then escape but when would a player try to escape roaches and we don't see roaches + infestor because by the time Zergs get infestors they don't want to have roaches.

Mech buffs - I think the problem of mech has always been Immortals' hardened shields. A straight buff to tank damage when sieged, or when unsieged, or lower the supply to 2, or the split attack Goody posted about on TL could all potentially work but who knows what else would change. I think the simplest solution is some small change in the hardened shield mechanic. You could change the life/shield ratio, give some units a bonus against it, or change the amount it lets through. Mech can already look OP vs Zerg and Terran Bio so it seems the best change to mech would focus on the linchpin unit of Protoss anti-mech which is and always has been the Immortal.
"We like the early aggressive options the Mothership Core provides, such as being able to recall back at the right moments" So how much longer is SC going to stay a game of second chances???
I'm all for changes that gives Terran options in the early game vs protoss.

Plus I've been watching more and more terran mech games (Avilo, cough) and I really enjoy them, so I'm all for a mech buff !
I don't really understand why you think it's nessecary to see more mech used , dayvie.

Mech is already used and when it is, it creates for the most boring of games. Countless of examples from Goody Games which are 1 hour +, he doesnt attack and in the end the opponent starves out....Is this something we want?


Also what the hell is with the roach burrow move bandaid. Youv given protoss too much engagement control by adding time warp to the existing questionable design of forcefields. If your trying to make burrow move the go to way to hold 2 base all ins it just becomes numbers again, either the protoss has the DPS or they dont, either the zerg has the roach count or they dont. For god sake please admit design decisions and revert them.

Time warp is a prime culprit in why the protoss matchups feel so stupid unlike a matchup like ZvT where impeccible control which is easily recognised and respected by the viewer is a massive factor in the engagement. In TvZ an engagement can go either way depending on the control of both players, superior control can balance quite a notable army disadvantage. This is not the case in protoss matchups, particularly PvZ. The winner of the fight is basically predetermined as the engagement starts.

01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dayvie
buffing mech air

Dont you dare

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