Balance test map follow-up

General Discussion
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PO ok 60 seg duration, but 120 seg whit no proves production per nexus.
-MSC vision nerf to 9.
-Medivacs whit ghost inside allow to snipe.
-Siege mode for colossus
-Turbo boost for Battle Cruiser
01/24/2014 11:39 AMPosted by Azrael
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None of which affect the ability to use EMP. Even Bio doesn't really use ghosts for mobility or DPS. It's marginally less accessible admittedly than medivacs or Vikings for bio- but you also don't need anywhere near as many as bio needs of medivacs and Vikings.

Agreed. I am not sure where you are going with this. TVP has needed ghosts no matter what composition you are going for. But going bio mech isnt a good option due to issues with mobility/ combined upgrades and the mass need for infrastructure.


I'm saying you could go full-on mech with just a few ghosts for the EMPs, not bio mech, and there's really no reason why that would not be viable. It would involve using maybe one to three barracks with tech labs to keep the Ghost count up, and you'd be able to have plenty of EMPs for the immortals. With the energy upgrade built in, using ghosts to guard the transition becomes vastly easier and immortals lose the value they had against tanks. Just including ghosts in mech is not bio mech any more than including Vikings in an MMM ball makes it bio mech.

01/24/2014 11:41 AMPosted by hofnerJ
01/24/2014 11:29 AMPosted by Nalikill
Okay. I say they're all wrong.


What, specifically, is all wrong?

Don't expect people to do your research for you. Especially when YOU are the one most definitely posting laughable assertions.


They're wrong because I say so. All of them are wrong in everything they say. If you don't need to specify what they say, then neither do I. If you don't need to specify what threads you're talking about or what points you're talking about, then neither do I.
01/23/2014 09:58 AMPosted by Dayvie
We don’t think this will be problematic for either side in TvZ right now. It’s very Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk focused for Zerg, whereas Terran players are exploring mech play and have the already solid optio


? Ever seen T v Z Mech? Zerg: Roach Hydra Viper.

-50% cost reduction witout any downside, this is so typical for blizzard, please don't buff/debuff something so hard!?? How about these gas cost, still have a huge impact:
45
40
35
30

oh and please don't come me with, u no grandmaster y u cry? When you see mech streams you will see hydras and it's quite balanced on small maps but looks unfair from the terran pov on big maps though. Period.
01/24/2014 11:58 AMPosted by Nalikill
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Agreed. I am not sure where you are going with this. TVP has needed ghosts no matter what composition you are going for. But going bio mech isnt a good option due to issues with mobility/ combined upgrades and the mass need for infrastructure.


I'm saying you could go full-on mech with just a few ghosts for the EMPs, not bio mech, and there's really no reason why that would not be viable. It would involve using maybe one to three barracks with tech labs to keep the Ghost count up, and you'd be able to have plenty of EMPs for the immortals. With the energy upgrade built in, using ghosts to guard the transition becomes vastly easier and immortals lose the value they had against tanks. Just including ghosts in mech is not bio mech any more than including Vikings in an MMM ball makes it bio mech.

01/24/2014 11:41 AMPosted by hofnerJ
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What, specifically, is all wrong?

Don't expect people to do your research for you. Especially when YOU are the one most definitely posting laughable assertions.


They're wrong because I say so. All of them are wrong in everything they say. If you don't need to specify what they say, then neither do I. If you don't need to specify what threads you're talking about or what points you're talking about, then neither do I.

Immortals dont lose their value but it doesnt take 1 immortal to kill 5+ tanks. Everyone has already gone ghosts with mech even before this patch.
[quote="114208043485"][quote]<span class="truncated">...</span>

They're wrong because I say so. All of them are wrong in everything they say. If you don't need to specify what they say, then neither do I. If you don't need to specify what threads you're talking about or what points you're talking about, then neither do I.


I am only a silver player so I just theory craft lots of the time with what I believe is a good fix and will cause a change in the meta. I think everyone should stop giving Nalikill so much time in this thread he is a bronze player that has played 50 games.
My suggestion to Nalikill is to go play a few hundred games and then you may have a better understanding.

Ghosts would be nice to use but I would like to be able to have more EMPs ie 50 energy instead of 75 energy
01/24/2014 12:48 PMPosted by FrozenCanuck
My suggestion to Nalikill is to go play a few hundred games and then you may have a better understanding.


Games played- and even skill at the game- does not necessarily correlate to analysis. By your logic, Blizzard should be hiring TLO, Minigun, etc. as designers. But they almost never draw their designers from the pool of pro players. Why? Because skill at theorycrafting, simulation, analysis and game design is not correlated to skill in playing the game. It's frankly reminiscent of asking how many divisions the pope has- entirely missing the point of the conversation.

01/24/2014 12:46 PMPosted by Azrael
Immortals dont lose their value but it doesnt take 1 immortal to kill 5+ tanks. Everyone has already gone ghosts with mech even before this patch.


And this makes that easier, which buffs mech. You get the ghosts out earlier, with more energy, which means a small number of immortals will no longer be able to trade efficiently against a small number of tanks mid-game.
Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in

We believe this change will not only help Terran against Protoss, which is our top concern right now, but it’ll also help with TvP mech. Right now, we’re seeing a lot more mech usage in both TvT and TvZ, and as far as mech buffs go, we’d like to only touch TvP right now.


This will buff TvP bio not mech...
To buff mech an emp on a tank, thor or any factory (maybe a starport unit) is required.
But they will notice it in engouh time hopefully

Also why go mech if bio is buffed the whole reason of making one strat more viable is to or nerf the other (like the mine nerf), or buff the other (mech upgrades), or do both...

goths just dont work with mech ask any pro player for the reasoning. probarly because of the gas costs that they need for tanks where bio lategame is less gass intensive.
01/23/2014 10:22 AMPosted by BABOCHEE
01/23/2014 10:05 AMPosted by HechNo
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HAHAHHAHAHAHA YOU GOT ME THERE BLIZZARD. GOOD ONE


Im with you on this one... Is this a joke? Also, this isn't going to affect early game TvP in any way what-so-ever...... PvZ isn't THAT broken... look @ who is making it into Code S. 15 Protoss, 3 (THREE!!!) Terrans and 10 Zerg... try thinking about changes along these lines....

1- reduce armory cost.... the difference in building 2 armories vs's building 2 forges or 2 evolution chambers is to large. Forges and evolution chambers affect all tiers of protoss and zerg units and cost much much less. Everything that goes into mech play is so gas heavy already, reducing gas cost even by 50 will make a huge difference.

2- reduce photon overcharge range enough so banshee's can harass the mineral line... this will force protoss to anticipate more possibilities and terrans wont HAVE to invest in cloak and be able to possibly do damage... banshees are nothing like oracles with there dps and protoss can scout well ahead of time and counter with oracle +stalker / phoenix... Terrans need more early game options, 5 fast reapers is about all they have right now (laff)... protoss are too safe and feel to safe in the early game and it's take for granted...

3- alter tanks in such a way that they are stronger~ish vs immortals (because right now it's ridiculous how strong they are, hard counter or not) perhaps double the attack speed of normal tank more while reducing the damage so that the dps comes out the same.... Changing the attack speed is the only way I can see that will help mech vs Protoss (Immortals) while not affecting other match-ups....

4- Most meching terrans or terrans that want to play mech DO-NOT want to have to build BIO to do it. Forcing a terran to invest the required gas for an Academy as well as the techlab for the ghost and the ghost(s) themselves should not be Blizzards answer for mech vs protoss. We will just see mech disappear and the game will be even less entertaining to play/watch.


That's an interesting idea about boosting atk speed on Tanks to help against Immortals.

Noob here but what if Tanks did (small) extra dmg vs shields like the Widow Mine? or maybe do that for the splash dmg in siege mode. That way it would only affect PvT. Just a thought :)
Hydralisks are already cheap and easy to mass. I agree with everything else, especially the tempest buff. If Zerg lets Toss get tempests, they deserve to lose their hives.
01/24/2014 09:50 AMPosted by Gilliam
because tanks are already fine against everything thats armored... They are good vs roaches and ultralisks, ok against marauders. The only things they absolutely get murdered by (blinding cloud, abduct, locusts, immortals and archons, skytoss) have nothing to do with tank anti-armored damage.

Exactly proving my point: siege tank does average vs anything but roaches. Ultralisk murder the tanks...

The idea is the following: tank is SO POWERFUL at ground it indeed requires ultra counters, such as cloud, abduct, and everything listed above. Right now a bioball isn't really fearing a few tank shots as a tank can't even blow marauders for serious due to the heal.
Right now, tanks are more of a joke unit...I've seen people build vipers and immos and archons more to counter BC or Thor than tanks....

Tanks need a real buff that would actually bring a justification to all those counters. Give it a bonus vs armored, i mean, more than dealing a whole total of 50 vs those. 60-65 would be the minimum.
Or give it a flat 50 damage so marine just don't go "LOLOLOL"
Buffing tempests by so much will make them difficult to contend with on maps like habitation station, i think you should look instead at directly nerfing the swarm host or adjusting them so that they are more dynamic and interesting. Perhaps you could even nerf the swarm host and buff infestors.
Hydra buff is definitely interesting. Although I would prefer making hydras actually stronger, increasing HP for example.

Swarmhost turtle play is a problem. The problem is that swarmhosts are weak in low numbers and are weak without static defence. Also this style is the ONLY viable lategame for zerg in ZvP. Yes it's boring, but if we were to nerf this, there should be some other options to play ZvP. Not just make an army, lose it, switch to mutas and hope for the best.

It's just problem with protoss deathball. Once they get it, you can either make mutas and never engage it. Or super turtle with swarmhost and there you can win only because you have dozens of defensive structures that doesn't cost supply, can do several waves of locusts without engaging, and pull units one by one by vipers, so you don't have to fight whole deathball at once. Always never engage protoss ball, and that severely limiting this matchup.

One could say that swarhosts are too strong, but if you need dozens of spines and spores with them all them time, good creep spread to not just die to a-move, aren't they actually weak? It's bad design.
Make the SwarmHosts move speed faster, make them burrow/unburrow a lot faster, and instead of having the endearing locust upgrade, make the upgrade something that discourages turtley play. Because making the locusts last this long, there is absolutely no downside to having them sit at your base under protection at all times just rallying across the map. If they were fater, and burrowed/unburrowed faster, they would become a much more offensive unit, hit and run tactics would be much easier and the SH would actually survive. Maybe even make a passive ability that allows the SH themselves to self destruct when they get sorrounded by units? That would be awesome lol OK that last one was a little crazy but I've heard tons of pro's talk on podcasts and other shows that SH right now encourage highly the defensive, turtley play, and the resources saved from the Free Units are easily spent on Static Defense.

Another suggestion, instead of buffing the Tempest, why not just make Carriers interceptors free? Instead of lategame having to continuesly dump resources into the Interceptors, which zerg doesn't have to do with Brood Lords/SH/Vipers that only use energy which cost no resources/Infestors it would even out the resource advantage that Zerg gets by having continues streams of Free Units in the late game, where resources saved and cost effectiveness becomes an enormous advantage no matter what matchup it is. Free Interceptors for the Carriers would solve this problem, because they are much better than any other Protoss units at clearing massive amounts of Static D, but are still slow enough and expensive enough to have risk involved with them. If this turns out to be somewhat problematic, you can always tweak the strength of them later on, or buff some other unit to counter act this, isn't that the nature of balance? Other than that I love the changes suggested.

Time Warp needs a nerf, it is a huge reason why Blink all-ins are so strong and reducing the ability to quickly cast 3 of those in short succession is a good step. It is also a big reason why PvZ all-ins are so strong as well.

BEWARE: Crazy suggestion incoming!
I suggested before that creating some kind of risk for the Protoss deciding to bring the MSC on offense, rather than leaving it home for defense would be a HUGE step for balance and frustration involved in the game right now. Making the MSC not regenerate energy unless it is inside a certain radius or distance from a Nexus would make the Protoss build up energy before moving out, and once it moved out for the attack, whatever energy it had built up it would be limited to that many spells. So say it had full energy 200/200, you would be able to cast 1 Time Warp, and 1 Recall, but wouldn't have any energy for PO. But say it had 100/200 energy, there would have to be a crucial decision to either Time Warp, or Recall. And then it wouldn't be able to build up energy while on attack, so going home would be the only way to build up energy for PO. This wouldn't effect the defensive abilities, since being around a Nexus would still allow energy regeneration, but it would really help with the offensive abilities because there would be a fixed number of spells it could cast before having to go home and recharge. Just throwing it out there, I think something like this would add excitement and opportunity/cost risks to the game while not severely affecting certain things.
2-3x more damage vs. buildings for tempests seems a bit excessive. Can you have them do 2-3x vs. biological or vs. biological structures?

Lastly, what's the point of creating threads with titles you've already used? http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374
Thank you for your feedback. We've also been gathering a lot of pro feedback, and as always, there's a lot of both positive and negative. However, because we're not trying to patch any of these changes to the live game and just want to test them out on the balance test map, we'll go ahead with these changes.

That doesn't mean we didn't take any of the feedback into consideration and we did hear a lot of points that we also have concerns on, but let's make sure to keep an eye out for these various concerns during the testing phase.

Please remember we're just testing things so we can always dial things back, remove changes completely, and/or try different changes during the testing phase.

Thank you.
01/24/2014 05:47 PMPosted by Dayvie
Thank you for your feedback. We've also been gathering a lot of pro feedback, and as always, there's a lot of both positive and negative. However, because we're not trying to patch any of these changes to the live game and just want to test them out on the balance test map, we'll go ahead with these changes.

That doesn't mean we didn't take any of the feedback into consideration and we did hear a lot of points that we also have concerns on, but let's make sure to keep an eye out for these various concerns during the testing phase.

Please remember we're just testing things so we can always dial things back, remove changes completely, and/or try different changes during the testing phase.

Thank you.

Thank you for the feedback!
We may seem negative much of the time, but we are positive also. You created a game that we are passionate about and we appreciate the work you put into it.
I really love the idea of reducing the gas for Hydras. I believe it will open up a lot more options for zerg rather than going ling/muta every game.
Hooray for communication.

I personally believe that the Ghost buff is going to re-meta TvP early game.
These changes seem Awesome however you still havnt adressed the blink stalker all in problem which needs a nerf badly. maybe the sight and speed of the MSC? but its great that your finally getting rid of long swarmhost play i think i was stuck to my seat on the snute vs the protoss(Forgot name)

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