Better Hydralisk Buffs

General Discussion
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Mr. Kim recently announced the testing of Hydralisks at the cost of 100m 25g (and of course, 2 supply). While this is very, very appealing from the standpoint of TvZ and ZvZ, I believe this change will break PvZ.

Why? Because of the potential for tech switching that Zerg have against a macroing Protoss. Hydralisks are very strong vs early-midgame Gateway units as well as Stargate units in small numbers. Three Stargate Void Ray can deal with them. However, I've seen Fungal Growth combined with Hydralisk and Queens be very effective vs Chargelot Void Ray midgames, so while the buff is appealing there, I dont think THIS PARTICULAR BUFF is what's needed. The potential of a Hydralisk slam followed by Muta tech switch cannot be understated.

Here's some less dangerous alternatives:

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1. Decrease Hydralisk Mineral cost - 75m 50g seems much more reasonable than 100m 25g.

2. Increase Hydralisk Anti-air range with Grooved Spines - have it increase AA by 2 instead of by 1. This will help vs Protoss air units and even the Colossus.


3. Increase Hydralisk HP - +10 HP maybe? (Might be OP but deserves testing.)

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If you'd rather see Blizzard go in this sort of direction, say so and give a +1. Also, share your own ideas. On the other hand, if you think 100m 25g would be balanced and fair, say so and give your side of the issue.

Always a pleasure,

Doncroft
I would like to see a hydra buff, but reducing the gas cost would cause lots of problems in PvZ. I like the idea of the mineral reduction. Additionally, why is Blizzard so opposed to adding 10HP to the Hydra? They can always tack it onto the speed upgrade if it's a balance issue, but Hydras are way too squishy.
As i said so on the other thread, reducing the mineral cost of Hydras is not a good idea since the zerg will just invest those mineral surplus in static defenses, which is very bad from a spectator point of view.

Instead, I'd rather have a 125/25 hydralisk (100/50 today et 100/25 proposed by David K).

I'm OK with a +1 AA range on the groved spines upgrades though
01/24/2014 06:45 AMPosted by VieuxSinge
As i said so on the other thread, reducing the mineral cost of Hydras is not a good idea since the zerg will just invest those mineral surplus in static defenses, which is very bad from a spectator point of view.

Instead, I'd rather have a 125/25 hydralisk (100/50 today et 100/25 proposed by David K).

I'm OK with a +1 AA range on the groved spines upgrades though

Yeah, I responded:

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01/24/2014 03:56 AMPosted by VieuxSinge
01/24/2014 03:45 AMPosted by Doncroft
A mineral reduction would be the safer bet.


Those mineral would then be invested in statics defense, which is bad for the game.
I think a 125/25 hydra is a nice buff (100/50 today) instead of the proposed 100/25

Hmm. I don't see that happening early-midgame where the buff would matter in PvZ. Lategame Hydralisks aren't the unit of choice anyways, and that's where mass crawlers are prevalent.

^
I added suggestion #3.
I love the range suggestion. That would give hydras a more powerful feel and allow micro to be rewarding (even versus colossus).

It's much better than reducing the gas cost so that teching / mass switching doesn't become a problem.
01/24/2014 06:40 AMPosted by Doncroft
1. Decrease Hydralisk Mineral cost - 75m 50g seems much more reasonable than 100m 25g.


Not sure I'm dead set against the current proposal, but it does seem like it might be nicer to try the mineral buff first, all things considered.

01/24/2014 06:40 AMPosted by Doncroft
2. Increase Hydralisk Anti-air range with Grooved Spines - have it increase AA by 2 instead of by 1. This will help vs Protoss air units and even the Colossus.


Really, really love this one.

3. Increase Hydralisk HP - +10 HP maybe? (Might be OP but might deserve testing.)


Don't have a clear opinion here, but it does seem like hydras are kind of designed to be a "glass cannon" unit.

Maybe a nerf to void rays would help, where they don't get that instant charge ability? Hydras used to at least deal with void rays pretty well...
Haha, two out of three of those are things I just suggested on the balance post. ^^
I hope that they try all of those suggestions. I think for the hydra range maybe consider to increase the cost to 200/200 up from 150/150? Having 1 extra range makes a tremendous difference.
Or you could just combine the upgrades.
Thank goodness you made this thread, if not, Blizzard wouldn't have listened.

And to the Zergs, with this buff in ZvP, you should just have 100% win rate.
Actually the mineral deduction isn't needed either. 75 looks way too small and just 25 minerals away to equal the amount of 2 zerglings...

The other ones are ok I guess.

Minerals wouldn't benefit Zerg that much because they are a greedy type of race.
i assume this is to discourage all the 2 base all ins protoss can do. But again its another bandaid fix that isnt tackling the issue and just creating more problems :P
It seems they dont want to listen...
01/24/2014 07:28 AMPosted by MrPotatoHead
i assume this is to discourage all the 2 base all ins protoss can do. But again its another bandaid fix that isnt tackling the issue and just creating more problems :P
It seems they dont want to listen...


Lol, no it's not. It's meant to buff late game vs a turtle skytoss, or just in general.

But unfortunately, Macro playing Protoss's would die to Hydra-ling pushes if they go for a fast 3rd base.

So to sum it up...

Zerg can be greedy, Can have more hydralisks and overpower the protoss in a timing attack, if some reason the timing doesn't work, transition to mutas to have even MORE gas for MORE mutalisks and yeah.

I suck against zerg when I play macro. This change will make this matchup tipped over to Zergs side.
01/24/2014 06:40 AMPosted by Doncroft
1. Decrease Hydralisk Mineral cost - 75m 50g seems much more reasonable than 100m 25g.

I honestly don't think this would have enough of an impact. Generally Zerg has enough Minerals compared to Gas, though this could allow for a few more Lings or Roaches or buildings I suppose.

01/24/2014 06:40 AMPosted by Doncroft
2. Increase Hydralisk Anti-air range with Grooved Spines - have it increase AA by 2 instead of by 1. This will help vs Protoss air units and even the Colossus.

Could also help against Medivacs and Mutas. +1 for this.

3. Increase Hydralisk HP - +10 HP maybe? (Might be OP but might deserve testing.)

This was tested in a player-made map before, seemed kind of OP. I'd test option 2 before I'd test this one.
01/24/2014 07:07 AMPosted by ZCBP
Maybe a nerf to void rays would help, where they don't get that instant charge ability?

Hydras aren't affected by the instant charge, only armored units.
01/24/2014 07:23 AMPosted by LeveT
Thank goodness you made this thread, if not, Blizzard wouldn't have listened.

And to the Zergs, with this buff in ZvP, you should just have 100% win rate.

I really hope they see these and try testing them. The range idea has been mine for quite a long time. The mineral one I just made up recently and the other I gleaned from the forum discussions.
One thing i'd be worried with HP increase would be in TvP: tanks can't do a damn vs hydras already, and hellbat won't stand a chance vs microing hydra.
I'd stick with air attack increase and/or the cost.
What do you think of some kind of hive-level upgrade that increases health?

In my opinion the suggested buff is bad because it will make roach hydra timing pushes too powerful in ZvP. Yet, the issue that needs to be addressed with the Hydra (as I see it) is that past these timings is that its kind of squishy and not cost effective.

In my opinion it makes sense to have some kind of late-game orientated buff, like a hive health upgrade.

The Hydra would definitely have too many upgrades in this case, but personally I'd prefer seeing this along with making the range upgrade innate so the Hydra still only has 2 upgrades, then some of the current suggestions.

Maybe my idea is terrible, but in my opinion the problem is it's strength as the game goes on, not it's power in early timings. Either way I think I'd prefer just about any of these over the current gas cost decrease. However I freely admit I'm biased as I have great difficulty in ZvP. I can barely stand the idea of any Zerg unit getting buffed in any way. (Then again I don't allin, so I guess I deserve bad winrates)

Out of all of your ideas I like #2 best though. I'm fine with a buff to Hydra AA; I just find other changes a very slippery slope.
I think #3 should be tested first, or maybe a buff to its armor in the later game.
Don. Can you look over the thread that you were originally posting in. I responded to Renideo, in addition to you.

I am very opposed to all of the suggestions you are making here.

01/24/2014 06:40 AMPosted by Doncroft
1. Decrease Hydralisk Mineral cost - 75m 50g seems much more reasonable than 100m 25g.

2. Increase Hydralisk Anti-air range with Grooved Spines - have it increase AA by 2 instead of by 1. This will help vs Protoss air units and even the Colossus.

3. Increase Hydralisk HP - +10 HP maybe? (Might be OP but deserves testing.)


Unless you are willing to go further than what is mentioned here, none of the changes suggested would go far enough to address the problems the Hydralisk is facing.

What you have to take in to consideration is that the Hydra change is specifically for ZvP. The developers know that Zerg will not able to engage latge game armies without spore/swarm host. They are preemptively adjusting the match-up so that Zerg will have a more reliable way to confront Protoss armies later on.

All of the changes you would need to suggest would need to be specifically targeted to late-game situations, with the goal of improving anti-air capabilities. If the Hydras still face the same problems they do now, that are embeded into the core of their design, they will still struggle with any of the three proposed changes above.

Hydras are supply inefficiently (massively). Hydras are cost inefficient (massively). A real way to fix Hydras would be to address either of these issues first, and then tack on one or more of the three above. Cost and Supply issues are the core problem, everything else is secondary.

At the very least, play around with the mod that is already out and develop your opinion from there. It's called, "proposed balance changes." You can find it by selecting a map, clicking "create with mod," and picking it out after typing it in the search bar. Please give this some consideration.

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