Balance Test Map Discussion - Updated: May 14

General Discussion
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We’ve recently published a new version of the Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list titled " MerryGoRoundLE (2.1.1 Balance v1.1)" in order to test a couple of Zerg changes alongside the existing Terran balance tweaks. This version of the map will be testing the following changes:

Terran
  • Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
  • Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory

Zerg
  • Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15 + 30 vs biological to 15 + 10 vs biological
  • Hydralisk damage against air increased from 12 to 12 + 4 vs biological

While we previously announced our plans to decrease Spore Crawler damage to 15 + 15 vs biological, we’ve decided to test out 15 + 10 vs biological instead. This new value further reduces the Spore Crawler’s effectiveness against Brood Lords while leaving its power against Mutalisks unchanged.

We'd encourage everyone to jump into Battle.net and check out the new changes! Once you feel you've had enough time to test the changes thoroughly, we'd love to hear your thoughts! Feel free to use this thread to post any feedback you have on these changes.

If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, you can check out David Kim's recent forum posts on both the Terran and Zerg changes.
I've tested out the Terran change already, but I'll give it another go. Also, I'll try out the Zerg changes as well as I'm off racing as Zerg as well and offer my input for both balance changes.
The terran changes has no function in TVP matches. What time is the balance changes of TVP ?
Why does the Hydralisk's damage have to be increased only against air biological? It would make them much more viable if they did +4 damage vs bio in general... I like the Hellion change though.
05/14/2014 06:58 PMPosted by Psione
While we previously announced our plans to decrease Spore Crawler damage to 15 + 15 vs biological, we’ve decided to test out 15 + 10 vs biological instead. This new value further reduces the Spore Crawler’s effectiveness against Brood Lords while leaving its power against Mutalisks unchanged.

For people who do not want to do the math:

Mutalisk: essentially 121 HP counting regen and assuming it dies quickly. 15 + 15 = 30. 120 / 30 = 4 (with a remainder of 1 to count regen, so 5 shots essentially to kill a Muta).

15 + 10 = 25. 25 x 5 = 125, still kills the Muta in 5 shots.

Broodlord HP = 226 with regen and assuming it dies quickly. 30 x 8 = 240, 8 shots to kill a Broodlord (7 would only deal 210 damage). 225 / 25 = 9, remainder of 1, so 10 shots to kill a Broodlord.
05/14/2014 08:39 PMPosted by ThisIsPATRIK
Why does the Hydralisk's damage have to be increased only against air biological? It would make them much more viable if they did +4 damage vs bio in general... I like the Hellion change though.


Hydras are way to strong against every low-mid tier unit that protoss has.
They destroy immortals/blink stalkers/unupgraded zealots/sentrys/phoenix/oracles/void rays while in low number
Midgame would become to Z favorable
Solid overall suggestions.

I don't think the spore crawler will still be problematic at 15+15 vs biological but I guess that's up to other people to decide.

I think the hellbat suggestion is going to go through at this point. There's been almost nothing but positive feedback about it and the win rates are definitely leaning in that direction.

I hope that you guys will continue to look over some of the overall unused units.

Viking Ground Mode could really use some improvement
Corrupters are fairly stale at the moment, even its small giving them something else to do would be a nice change

Oracles are incredibly one dimensional and don't fulfill any role that Protoss was really missing. I hope that you guys will consider tuning them towards being more of a midgame to late game unit like the banshee.
05/14/2014 08:47 PMPosted by Abalu
Hydras are way to strong against every low-mid tier unit that protoss has.
They destroy immortals/blink stalkers/unupgraded zealots/sentrys/phoenix/oracles/void rays while in low number
Midgame would become to Z favorable


out of all the units you just listed, the only biological unit is the zealot...
05/14/2014 09:25 PMPosted by jokerwanted
05/14/2014 08:47 PMPosted by Abalu
Hydras are way to strong against every low-mid tier unit that protoss has.
They destroy immortals/blink stalkers/unupgraded zealots/sentrys/phoenix/oracles/void rays while in low number
Midgame would become to Z favorable


out of all the units you just listed, the only biological unit is the zealot...


ops :P
05/14/2014 08:39 PMPosted by ThisIsPATRIK
Why does the Hydralisk's damage have to be increased only against air biological? It would make them much more viable if they did +4 damage vs bio in general... I like the Hellion change though.

I agree and I disagree, I feel if they did do bonus vs biological ground then they would be a must have unit in ZvZ...
05/14/2014 08:39 PMPosted by ThisIsPATRIK
Why does the Hydralisk's damage have to be increased only against air biological? It would make them much more viable if they did +4 damage vs bio in general... I like the Hellion change though.


^ very good idea.
05/14/2014 09:53 PMPosted by Ryman
05/14/2014 08:39 PMPosted by ThisIsPATRIK
Why does the Hydralisk's damage have to be increased only against air biological? It would make them much more viable if they did +4 damage vs bio in general... I like the Hellion change though.

I agree and I disagree, I feel if they did do bonus vs biological ground then they would be a must have unit in ZvZ...
which would be fine.

roach vs roach blows, its been the zvz meta since........................forever? making hydras better would open up more unit combs in zvz such as using banlings(and burrow maybe?) to counter hydras as well as maybe use of blinding cloud with zerglings. overall better unit diversity would improve the matchup.

i dont care about protoss having issues with hydras as long as protoss still has storm.
terran on the other hand....idk maybe they would have to buff tanks some more to combat mass hydras(please?)
05/14/2014 08:39 PMPosted by ThisIsPATRIK
Why does the Hydralisk's damage have to be increased only against air biological? It would make them much more viable if they did +4 damage vs bio in general... I like the Hellion change though.


+4 to all air might be interesting, but +4 to all bio period would be horribly game breaking man especially with their new attack speed buff. Terran would have no choice but to Mech and then get rolled by late game Zerg, it wouldn't be pretty.

Hell you could probably even overpower swarm hosts, which is a ridiculous notion.
05/14/2014 10:13 PMPosted by PsionicSun
05/14/2014 09:53 PMPosted by Ryman
...
I agree and I disagree, I feel if they did do bonus vs biological ground then they would be a must have unit in ZvZ...
which would be fine.

roach vs roach blows, its been the zvz meta since........................forever? making hydras better would open up more unit combs in zvz such as using banlings(and burrow maybe?) to counter hydras as well as maybe use of blinding cloud with zerglings. overall better unit diversity would improve the matchup.

i dont care about protoss having issues with hydras as long as protoss still has storm.
terran on the other hand....idk maybe they would have to buff tanks some more to combat mass hydras(please?)

Hydralisks are already important in roach vs roach battles. Their damage and range makes them a necessity however to push it further makes it feel like the first person who gets hydras gets an auto win.

I doubt it would increase diversity because it would make hydras a requirement meaning you will always go for roaches and i think you would see zergling aggression much less because it would be too much of an investment because its all a race to get hydras...
05/14/2014 11:01 PMPosted by Ryman
... which would be fine.

roach vs roach blows, its been the zvz meta since........................forever? making hydras better would open up more unit combs in zvz such as using banlings(and burrow maybe?) to counter hydras as well as maybe use of blinding cloud with zerglings. overall better unit diversity would improve the matchup.

i dont care about protoss having issues with hydras as long as protoss still has storm.
terran on the other hand....idk maybe they would have to buff tanks some more to combat mass hydras(please?)

Hydralisks are already important in roach vs roach battles. Their damage and range makes them a necessity however to push it further makes it feel like the first person who gets hydras gets an auto win.

I doubt it would increase diversity because it would make hydras a requirement meaning you will always go for roaches and i think you would see zergling aggression much less because it would be too much of an investment because its all a race to get hydras...
nothing you said makes sense. rushing lair to get hydras while they still require 2 upgrades plus the gas cost of the unit is risking and nonviable , zergling banling rush/aggression will never go away unless they buff spines and queens as well as make every map as big as alterzim,everyone already goes for roach hydra and making hydras the standard will make banlings better mid choice for the mid-late game.
05/14/2014 11:12 PMPosted by PsionicSun
everyone already goes for roach hydra and making hydras the standard will make banlings better mid choice for the mid-late game.

And you say nothing I said makes sense?

05/14/2014 11:12 PMPosted by PsionicSun
everyone already goes for roach hydra

So buffing the Hydra will make people not want to use it and try other things?

05/14/2014 11:12 PMPosted by PsionicSun
rushing lair to get hydras

Also I didn't say this. I did say it would be a race to get Hydras but by that I meant who ever gets a sizeable force of Hydras first will snowball into winning. Since it will effectively counter everything the other Zerg has..
Banelings? Nope just put some roaches in front and focus them down with your hydras.
still no tvp fix.
still no swarmhost change.
still not addressing the real problems.

good work.
05/14/2014 11:18 PMPosted by Ryman
Banelings? Nope just put some roaches in front and focus them down with your hydras.

I don't think Banelings can even touch Hydras with them +4 to bio.....
you know, it only take them 2 shots.
Can we test removing the Bio tag from hellbats? It would help TvP Mech so much. If the feeling is that they're too squishy without medivac healing, consider giving them 1 base armor. My gut feeling is that would be unnecessary though and possibly too powerful. Plus it has the added benefit of reducing the power of hellbat drops slightly which just got a nice buff with this patch.

Overall, I think removing the Bio tag from hellbats would be sort of a mixed bag of buff and nerf that reduces their potency of a potentially troubling strategy (hellbat drops), marginally reduces the strength of the unit in conjunction with Bio, but increases the potency of the unit in a matchup that Terran struggles in (Mech vs. Protoss).

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