When to create an expansion?

Protoss Discussion
I think i did used the term correctly, as where I build another base? I've had this problem where I can expand faster than my opponents (except against zerg of course) and complete my structure and upgrades faster than my opponent but i neglect the amount of units I should have to defend my base which makes me frustrated.

Cause there are times i focus too much on the wrong unit and end up paying for it so I always choose to maintain minimal troops with fast expansion when I don't rush. How should I improve in unit choice and number of troops as well marines and zergs of cause can build troops faster and have are easier to built massive number of units.
try scouting? see what he has and try to produce stuff to counter it.
Expanding is a very tricky thing for Protoss, generally you will be expanding mid game versus good players. Protoss has to keep a strong focus on units to not get overrun early in the game.

Usually the best time to expand will be a midgame point during a push out on the opponent, try to keep them on the defensive while getting your expansion up.

There are other build orders that go with a very very fast expand using forge/cannons, but I don't suggest working on those build orders until you are able to expand normally and hold your ground in most situations.

If you scout your opponent is going for a very macro heavy build you can choose to either expand then or go for an early push and punish them for their choices.

Currently Protoss has the hardest time expanding early in the game and you just have to take it slow and find a point you can sneak in your Nexus. Saving up to 400 minerals is difficult as Protoss.
I do try to scout but then against terran its hard as they blocked the roads and you need an observer to go through that. Against zerg I always meet up with zerglings on the way that desstroy my scouts after early game for both scenarios.

I normally expand as fast as I can as I'm afraid of losing in terms of speed in minerals as drone are faster and terran has the skill. Or normally holding ground should be more important for protoss?
Protoss is able to operate very well off 1 Base.

You are able to use 4 Gateways or some mix of 2-3 Gateways + a Stargate/Robo Bay off a single base.

You shouldn't worry about getting your expansion until the 80ish supply mark I would guess.

It is best to learn how to fight off of 1 base with protoss for awhile, then work on learning when to expand later. A lot of times your main will be nearly mined out before you have an opportunity to expand when playing against strong opponents. It is just how the game is for Protoss.

As a rule of thumb a Zerg player will always be 1 base up on you.
A Terran will have 1 more base than you occasionally, but you can usually stay about even with them.
Oh and one more thing just to ask would you build stargate over robotic facility?

Are VR's really that much better? I think sometimes they are overrated
Both are very good structures.

The stargate only has one function in 60% of the games you will build it in. Creating Void Rays. The Void Ray is a solid unit that can steal quick games, or back up your army well. The tech investment for a single unit can be expensive and not be worth the payoff if your opponent has ample forces that can target air. Though if you scare them into building more anti air than needed, then you can shift off void rays and never use them again.

Pheonixs have utility use here and there, but are seen less than Void Rays at the moment.

The Robo bay of course leads to Immortals and eventually COllossi if needed. Both of these units are very solid and I prefer to go this path the majority of games I play. I generally only decide to go Air if I get a really good feeling off a scout or are on a map such as Desert Oasis where I have a short air path to my opponents base, then I can use a proxy pylon + vision off Void Rays to warp units into the opponents base and setup a solid attack plan.

The shear tank ability of the Immortal makes it hard to pass up the Robo Bay in most play situations.

well since my game wont let me in i'll post my two cents

usually i make an expo around the 9min mark.now for me, i am an offensive player always keeping them locked in their base. i generally just blink stalker harass run out rinse repeat. as for your second q, voids are good, but anti air can just destroy them before they're fully charged or upgraded for speed (generally mid-end game tech). I will always make the RF>SG unless im void rushing (obviously).
I make sure to camp the enemy's natural expo before making mine. Also, if you scout properly(although I didn't find a very quick way to do so yet) you could know what's coming over. for most setups I'd use something like 6 zealots and 3-4 stalkers for defending your natural expo while you build up. Don't forget about backdoor possibilities and keep some units in your main.

One thing that I learned is that toss is a bad expander if you can't control your enemy's economy, because of the units' cost in the beggining. When you think the enemy, who is locked in his base, has gone through about half his minerals, that would be the right time...

Even though I'm still a complete noob and all that I just wrote could be a whole damn mess and get you to lose for sure
i do it after first major battle
As Danxor said - you can support 2-3 gateways and a robo/stargate (or 4 gateways) on one base - so as a good beginner rule of thumb you're generally going to expand once you have those 4 or so unit producing structures up pumping sufficient units to defend or attack.

As other people mentioned - it is often a good idea to time an expansion with when you're ready to push out for your first major attack. This allows you to 'cover' your expansion (ie. not have it be attacked) and not allow your enemy to exploit the window before your expansion kicks in (since you just spent 550 or so minerals on it...including assimilators).

A 'fast expansion' is not as common with Toss as it is with Zerg, though depending on the map you can often build a gateway and forge at a choke and get some cannons to secure a fast expansion (generally only against zerg). WhiteRa (pro Ukrainian - one of the best toss players) often fast expands on maps like Blistering Sands against zerg after opening with a 2-gate zealot push.

Also - just watch your money - if you have more money than you can spend - it is definitely a good time to expand. If you get up over 1000 minerals or something since you've been paying attention to a battle and not macroing - just toss down a nexus since you can afford it (provided the enemy isn't at your door of course).

I build an expansion usually after I have a decent size army, maybe say 5-6 zealots 3-4 stalkers.. This really depends on who I am fighting tho and if they Fast Expand, if they Fast Expand I usually build mine as I run over to kill theirs as they will be to distracted defending their expansion to notice me building mine

If your up against a MMM ball terran Fast Expand
I would go for the robotics facility but that is only because i like the immortals. I don't get the robotics facility though until I have a good army such as 10 or so zealots and 20 stalkers or bigger cause most stuff in the robotics facility cost a lot and you shouldn't get it until you have a big army so you don't have to worry about having to warp units in to save your base.
In short, expand when you know your opponent won't be attacking you.

-If you are attacking your opponent, he will not have a chance to attack you (unless he has drop ships, but then those units won't be defending him), which is a good time to expand.
-If you see what your opponent is doing but he can't see you, you may be able to plan for his attack and win while getting an expansion up. If you think you can shove him off with 400 less minerals protecting you, you should try.
-If you have units that allow you to peck at an opponent's base while getting away safely (drop ships, blink stalkers), your opponent will have to leave forces behind to deal with them, giving you some safety to expand.
-If your opponent is playing very defensively, you might be able to expand, but beware - if someone is holing up in their base, they're trying to get some sort of special unit. You can use the time someone is teching up to expand, but your priority is finding out what that tech is.

It all comes down to being able to watch what your opponent is doing. An observer is fantastic for the role naturally, but a phoenix (even hallucinated) can give you a good idea of what is going on in an opponent's base as well as the rest of the map. If you can see what an opponent is doing, you'll be able to gauge whether it's time to expand or if you think you'll be attacked soon.
11/10/2013 04:45 PMPosted by GoGoGo

I was wondering why everyone here was giving such terrible advice, but then I saw the OP was in july 2012... WHY ARE YOU NECROING THIS

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