Community Feedback Update - June 26

General Discussion
Add Lockdown to the Ghost, then add Irradiate to the Raven. Lockdown would make the Ghost useful against mech, and Irradiate would make the Raven useful against bio.
Thanks Dayvie, I have few points I want to say. First of all I don't think mech is where it should be. Cyclone doesn't really add anything interesting to mech. Mech with siege tank as the core which revolve arond positioning need help. Cyclone as a unit doesn't fit into the design of mech in general. Mass Cyclone moving around kiting everywhere is agreed by the commuity to be bad for the game and not what they are looking for for mech.I also have some concern that Adept will render mech in TvP entirely useless because of their ability to just bypass all positional advantage which is strong point of the composition.The Adept are also so tanky against siege tank. That's a not the design we want imo.

Siege Tank drop is not something terran need imo. Siege Tank's core gameplay element and what makes it so interesting is their ability to gain huge positional advantage thus people with skillful positioning and army movement will be rewarded. With this pick up and drop while in siege mode devalue that aspect of skill with siege tank especially in TvT which is one of the best match up which positioning is an art form in that match up. Could you pls reconsider this? I don't want TvT to be made much worse.

Disruptor as you stated is cuurently too much of an an all or nothing unit. This slot of unit should be something that do decent AoE damage/slow/can't be massed. It should preferably be something that shoots rather than moving itself in. Protoss need something a bit less gimmicky.
06/26/2015 01:35 PMPosted by Psione
This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location.

I was hoping for a change like this. You could even tie an animation to it in order to visually differentiate the loading and unloading times. I always imagined a pair of cables descending from the medivac and attaching to the tank.
Small recommendation for these threads going forward. When you're discussing a change, can you please list it somewhere in the OP? I know that the Ghost has an anti-armor shell or something from the context you've given, but can you list the stats/cd/name as well? Thanks.
I play Terran and I haven't played any legacy yet. It looks boring.
The 3rd installment needs something new. It can't just be another add-in with a few new units. That was Brood War and that HOTS.

I also don't want a new economy. I like the economy as is. I'm cool with more starting SCVs. Everyone agrees we need that.

What LOTV needs is something cool. Blizz you need the most amazing thing actually making SC2 work. The 3rd release of SC2 should be easy. I would say in SC2 each race got more like itself. Terran got more Terran. Protoss got more Protoss and the Zerg more Zerg.

That is was LOTV should be. Each each should be more like itself. So what o make in LOTV

****************************
Here are my ideas:

Terran:
Late game Terran, SCVs need to be able to construct a unit directly on the battlefield. Something mech. Something that can really bang. That is what I want, and the Terrans I have talked to want. Even if it takes 5 SCVs to build the unit, it would be awesome for end game Terran to just blow up into SCV spammed mech units.

Building with SCVs is just super Terran, It feels Terran. Sure have to build enough depots to keep that damn women happy.

Protoss:
SC2 make Protoss more about the warp. How to make Toss more Toss. Warp is the answer.

When you get more than 3 Nexus the Nexus should connect (along Nexus lines/Nexus Network ) and allow any warp-in along any of those lines.

Toss should also get some new unit, call it a "Nexus Pillar" that extends the Nexus network and allows warp in directly on the battlefield. Very similar to Warp Prisms. You should also be able to call Photon Overcharge in on the Nexus Pillar. Image the protoss death ball trying trying to keep some ancient sacred tower alive. Seems very toss.

Also image a proxy Nexus that creates a Nexus line directly through the enemy base. You could immediate start warp in with so long as you had vision. No warp prism needed.

Zerg:
The creep. Ah the creep. Don't fight the creep and it will get you.
Late game zerg, you need to get the option to evolve the tumors into something. I say a defensive structure. That way if you don't fight the zerg, and there economy goes super crazy, you know they are gonna be even more dug in.

For me, I want the 3rd installment to keep what I love about SC2 and not change what makes it great. New eco is silly. Sure give is new gameplay but not just be changing core mechanics. Give us new gameplay by giving us game changing abilities.

Those are my ideas.
thx guys for the communication appreciated cool stuff
First of all you need to nerf parasitic bomb, the way it stacks is unfair. Adapts need a slight cost increase 25 minerals if you dont want to nerf them otherwise.

REMOVE THE DRONE FROM THE GHOSTS! I also dont get how you can say snipe needs less micro! Why not give a armordebuff to snipe and make it a little bit more expensive? I think the drone ability is distracting and to much like the point defense drone. Also maybe you want to look into nukes, such a unique and underused abitlity. Less powerful in damage and aoe but faster maybe?
... what the hell is this? The apocalypse must be coming because that's two weeks in a row that the devs have given us an update. A decent update, no less. Thanks for the info guys, we appreciate it!
tl;dr. we don't care what the community wants, we just do it out way.

Not a single word on the sorry state of protoss, but then again...

06/26/2015 01:35 PMPosted by Psione
Disruptor Update
We’ve been testing various changes here and we want a version of the Disruptor where each hit isn’t that big, but it’s possible to save and reuse each Disruptor so there’s a lot more micro and decision making needed on both sides. This week we’re trying a version of the Disruptor that has much less impact per hit, but stays in its “phased out” mode for a few seconds after the hit has gone off. One concern here is that the Disruptor could feel too difficult to kill, and this is why we’d like to internally explore more in detail before deciding on the list of changes for the beta.


Medivacs picking up siege mode Siege Tanks
Thanks to your feedback, we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location. This way, there’s a bit of a delay before firing each shot, and the Medivac is still free to move around since both the pick-up and drop on this side is instant. We don’t know what the optimal number of seconds will be for the tank to set up, but it’s something we’re playing around with.


I'm honestly speechless.
You just hold on to your retarded ideas instead of making the game just work.

06/26/2015 01:35 PMPosted by Psione
Something that has more interaction, unlike Snipe.

There are many potential interactions with the new ability. Say one of my Carriers got tagged. Now I can make a choice out of many options: I can move that Carrier out of range to not take additional damage from the Vikings, focus fire down the drone, move back out of range if too many drones were used in a specific location, or not care and deal damage through the armor debuff.
Compare this with being hit with Snipe: he used Snipe enough times to kill my Broodlord or he didn’t and my Broodlord survived. There really isn’t a choice for me here.


06/26/2015 01:35 PMPosted by Psione
New Ghost ability
Before we discuss the new ability, we’d like to point out that the beta exists so that we can test various changes, and some will be bigger changes like this. As we’ve pointed out before, we’re still in beta and nothing is final. If we end up feeling the change doesn’t work, it’s easy to just revert the change, and there was no harm done. On the other hand, by trying out bigger changes such as this one, we can learn more about a tool that the Ghost can potentially use, or even give us more ideas in terms of what else we can try next. We saw a range of responses to this change, from those immediately dismissing the change based on the description to some analyzing the changes and providing constructive feedback. In order to help the development process and work together, the first type of stance mentioned above helps no one, and the second type of stance is what we do internally. We’d really like to give shout-outs to people who are also willing to work for the better of the game like this.

Getting into the details of where we’re at with this ability. We agree with you guys in that this is probably not the final version of the ability. This ability was created with two main factors in mind:

Something fills the role of Snipe
Snipe, at its core, was used to help take down larger units (before it was changed to mostly focus on eliminating High Templars).
The problem was that there was little micro on both sides, since Snipe is instant burst damage. And it was moved to a spot where it’s rarely used due to how it was used. Games where Snipe would take down a few critical units instantly and the game would end.

Something that has more interaction, unlike Snipe.
There are many potential interactions with the new ability. Say one of my Carriers got tagged. Now I can make a choice out of many options: I can move that Carrier out of range to not take additional damage from the Vikings, focus fire down the drone, move back out of range if too many drones were used in a specific location, or not care and deal damage through the armor debuff.
Compare this with being hit with Snipe: he used Snipe enough times to kill my Broodlord or he didn’t and my Broodlord survived. There really isn’t a choice for me here.

It’s too early to make a judgment on this new ability, but that was our thoughts regarding why we wanted to try this ability out. One point we saw from the community was that the fantasy of the new ability isn’t as strong for the Ghost as Snipe was. We agree here, and this will need to factor into the final decision when we decide to keep, improve, redesign, or revert this change.


Your reasoning behind this is ridiculous.
There is no choice for any of the players involved in this.
worse than this, you don't understand the game, nor the consequences of your so called balance changes. Allow me refresh your memory.

Brood lords and infestors were broken in WoL (remember all the nerfs you gave them in HOTS beta?, yah those nerfs that made infestors situational gimmicks). Want to know why the were broken? Aside from their overall bad design.

They were broken because

a) protoss had no way of dealing with them aside from archon toilet

a) terrans had no way of dealing with them. Like no way at all. Terrans had to outmicro, outink and outmacro the zerg on all levels in order to have a chance of winning.

Remember that 1 year in which zergs had like 90% of all contests wins? remeber the time when we had like only ZvZ finals?

You made that happen. Wanna know how?


By nerfing snipe.


Terrans were (ab)using snipe against ultra brood lord simply because there was nothing else to use. And when you nerfed that, that dark, dark age of starcraft 2 begun. That nerf has since been made obsolete, because terrans now have more ways of dealing with brood lords and infestors. The composition itself is no longer as powerful as it's been back then.

The point is,

the snipe nerf no longer makes sense.

You should bring snipe back, and you should let it scale with weapon upgrades. 20 base damage, +10 per weapon upgrade.

Now, onto the reasoning for the retarded drone idea.
There is really no choice in there. It is just the illusion of choice. You think it make sense in the context of small battles, but in fact it doesn't. Not only is the armor debuff not worth it, you also don't understand the interaction between units.

1) terrans will never use stuff like ghosts to kill carriers. Pure marine rip carriers apart. Even if you don't have them, vikings with basic micro are enough.

2) terrans are unlikely to use ghost drone against brood lords. Why? because advancing on to the brood lords is difficult. Terrans will prefer an instant brust damage metod, like vikings or thors instead of microing their soul out with your retard idea.

3) When a high tech, expensive unit, such as the ultra gets countered by a relatively easy to get ghost, which doesn't really need much teching, the player will simply not make that unit anymore.

There is no choice here. You are introducing an ability which breaks one specific encounter. It is tuned to shut down a specific strategy. And that's what it does.It shuts down the strategy. Why would a zerg even try to get the ultras, when the terran can use his undeniable scout to see what the zerg does, and use a puny tech building to get the hard counter for the zerg tech? One would think you learned your lesson from the +biological bonus to spore crawlers, but you didn't.
While there's a good factor in adding more micro, there's also an 'over micro' too, it goes from being 'optional', to 'tedious' quite fast, and during different parts of the game, that thin line moves as well.

good example is the immortal.
in small smirshes, the extra activation is a great thing, skill players beneift.

but in medium to large size battles, it weakened the immortal so much, the unit is pretty much out of commission due to cost concerns. I will opt, for 'micro-able' abilities, why not have a toggle?

Let the Player's skill decide which level of automation they want. If they are more skilled, they will choose manual, otherwise, the option really will help mend the learning gap for new players.

I hope someone will agree with me in the devs.
06/27/2015 01:15 AMPosted by ShoolNOTcool
First of all you need to nerf parasitic bomb, the way it stacks is unfair. Adapts need a slight cost increase 25 minerals if you dont want to nerf them otherwise.

REMOVE THE DRONE FROM THE GHOSTS! I also dont get how you can say snipe needs less micro! Why not give a armordebuff to snipe and make it a little bit more expensive? I think the drone ability is distracting and to much like the point defense drone. Also maybe you want to look into nukes, such a unique and underused abitlity. Less powerful in damage and aoe but faster maybe?


How does that create more options for both sides compared to the drone ?
06/27/2015 05:55 AMPosted by BlueZero
While there's a good factor in adding more micro, there's also an 'over micro' too, it goes from being 'optional', to 'tedious' quite fast, and during different parts of the game, that thin line moves as well.

good example is the immortal.
in small smirshes, the extra activation is a great thing, skill players beneift.

but in medium to large size battles, it weakened the immortal so much, the unit is pretty much out of commission due to cost concerns. I will opt, for 'micro-able' abilities, why not have a toggle?

Let the Player's skill decide which level of automation they want. If they are more skilled, they will choose manual, otherwise, the option really will help mend the learning gap for new players.

I hope someone will agree with me in the devs.


more options to choose from has nothing to do with over micro. u dont need to choose evry option !

Only if u have to use evry option to just to survive that would be over micro.
Did you Try making Units not clump Up so much? 10% less. I think this would make battles last a bit longer
You want disruptor to be very strong against bio?

It will never be, because terrans just pick the bio army up with the medivac, then drop and kill the disruptor, has happened to me against the better terran.

Too easy to avoid the nova for bio.
Bring back snipe. Make it target only ground units. 50hp.

Consider making SiegePickup an upgrade for each of medivacs. Medivacs with upgrade have different model.

Rework Stimpack - split it to two upgrades, one upgrade is stim for marines, reapers, second is for marauders, ghosts.

One upgrade requires techlab
Second upgrade requires stimpack, and ghost academy.
Eventually rework stimpack to two or three levels to make it different.

Example
Stimpack LVL 1
70 seconds, applies only do marines, 70% of current stimpack (in speed attack)
Stimpack LVL 2
another 90 seconds, applies to reapers and marauders , 110% of current stimpack. (in speed attack)
Stimpack LVL 3
130 seconds, applies to ghosts, reduces hp done to units by 50%.
06/26/2015 01:35 PMPosted by Psione
Medivacs picking up siege mode Siege Tanks
Thanks to your feedback, we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location. This way, there’s a bit of a delay before firing each shot, and the Medivac is still free to move around since both the pick-up and drop on this side is instant. We don’t know what the optimal number of seconds will be for the tank to set up, but it’s something we’re playing around with.


Seriously why do you keep pushing the siege-medivac-tank? We don't want it. It removes the identy of the siege tank and change its role from core hitter and ground holder into harassing tool. With banshee and (unwanted) liberator AG, We terrans have enough harassing tool. We need a buff to Siege tanks to make them more powerful vs high HP units and a way to fix their too strong power vs mass mid hp armies like Roach Hydra. A way to do that is increase their damage vs single target while preserving the splash + removing the smart fire. That way Terran needs to micro the tanks and the opponent can micro and lure out initial shots from tanks to allow the main army to attack.

Some interesting interaction and position control can happen. Picking tanks in siege mode should not be a thing at all. It is bad. SUPER BAD. Just try to increase the tank power and removing the smart fire.
Wrath

you do not want it. Shut up.
Thanks for the update again!

I think you guys should sit back and really see if some of your new abilities and changes are actually good or if you just think they are good.

I personally haven't read a single positive thread on the changes made to ghost, come up with something new instead of tinkering with something that doesn't work. An ability should never be made for just one match up, that is just bandaiding at its finest and why this game has so many weird things like that. The ghost ability is super hit or miss and at times doesn't work period. I would think something like snipe should counter super big units, that just makes sense, a well placed shot into the weak spot of an otherwise well armored enemy.

I'm glad you are lowering the damage that disruptors do but I'm not sure its the damage that is the issue, the issue is the invulnerabilty. You're forcing in a mechanic that doesn't flesh out well in RTS. You should ALWAYS be able to destroy something that can do the sort of terrible damage that a unit like the disruptor does. Make it a protoss baneling for all I care just let me focus it down if I want to, id still have to micro to take it down but atleast id have the option to try to take it down. I feel like the Disruptor is kind of a "nuke on a cart" weapon, sure they can disable it before you activate it, but god help them (or you) if its activated and pushed towards something. I want less nukes on a cart and more core units.

I've also never heard a complaint about the way void rays worked from lower level players, I think that is a fabricated response. The lowest of lowest level players can understand that if it sits there and keeps shooting it keeps doing more and more damage, that is a very easy mechanic to understand. What is not easy to understand is how to activate that ability whilst microing other units and their abilities. You guys should probably reach out to more lower level players. I think they (and I) would tell you that we want easier units to use and less units that require counter micro. The disruptor is a game-breaking joke in late game for lower level players. We always have a big ball of units because we haven't learned to split yet. It was hard enough learning to counter widow mines and banelings but this thing is ridiculous. I just see this game getting harder and harder for new players, the skill floor is going up but not the skill ceiling and that is bad thing.
I have a doubt about something regardless the community's feedback and the Dev Team.

I feel there are a stubborn feeling about trying fixes good players make, I will put here few of them so I can be as clear as I can.

- Siege Tank drop, try the fix they did on StarBow
- Ghost Snipe, never tried the "Nerf vs Massive", instead it got utterly relegated to few units

It really feels like if someone did something better than you, you try by all means to reach a similar result, refusing to do the same thing.

Sorry, but I really needed to say it, from WoL until now that situation hasn't change and it worries me, because there are plenty of good suggestions from the pros or very analytic people on TL and the momento they thought about it and you (dev team) didn't, that won't be even tried "like that", and instead you would over-think ways to do it different.

You can't get the best ideas on everything, and if another player got it, you should consider it and be happy to get people giving you nice suggestions instead refusing to admit they get a better idea than yours first.

I know this sounds kind of aggressive and I apologize for it, but I really can't find another way to say it.
06/27/2015 12:57 PMPosted by Neuromancer
Wrath

you do not want it. Shut up.


Maybe if you get your !@#$ty head out of your %^-*!@# and look around you will see how much the community want more solid tank than trolling with sieged medivac tank.

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