Community Feedback Update - August 28

General Discussion
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08/28/2015 11:31 AMPosted by Traysent
Just a reminder to keep your feedback constructive and your language clean. Thanks to everyone so far who's putting careful thought in their replies.

It is really REALLY hard thing to do after having so high expectation after the last week with the removal of macro mechanics and then shatter all those expectation to the ground with this... Thing you call update...
The one suggestion I have is concerning the OL-drop nerf.
I think it'd be a much better idea to make OL-drop transformation require the OL-speed upgrade, rather than requiring Lair tech.
This would nerf the super-early OL drop cheese, while still giving zerg more options at hatchery tech. It'd be especially useful to deal with stuff like cannon-rush contains.
I'll accept these mule changes, as long as the mule can spawn at a planetary fortress. Since PFs are terran's only non-supply ground defence, we have to build them at hard to defend expansions, whereas toss and zerg can just spine crawler and cannon up.

Allow mules at PFs or give terran a static ground defence building that doesn't cost supply or 550/150 resources. Better yet, give these new nerfed auto-mules to all command centers (upgraded or not), similar to how toss get chrono for free (no need to upgrade anything).


However, the redesigned Tempest isn’t working out as well as we had hoped. The main reason is that we’ve added an activated ability to replace what the Tempest normally does in HotS, but the ability added isn’t very interesting. There’s no real counter to the ability being cast due to it being a instant 1 click thing where the opponent really doesn’t have many responses to other than “use this unit before it dies.

High Templar's Feedback is not that different, I would welcome a look at that aswell.
How about a Phase-shift ability, that costs ~25 mana, and lasts for 6 seconds? (cast on own abducted units to retreat them savely, or on medivacs so they can't drop, or on vipers so there won't be blinding clouds.)

Overall I am very disappointed with even more autocast, removing injects would probably been the better way. I had more fun with Sc2 this week than, basically ever (except for the few month before starbow ruined their pathing). Low incomes early game, no chrono, that made for so many small fun skirmishes.

An autocasted mule, that does not cost energy does nothing to address how frequently scan is available, it only makes the situation worse, since now there is an extra incentive to get an orbital early.
Then again, I like that terran have many scans at their disposal, aswell as overlord speed on T1, since Maphacking gives a smaller and smaller adventage that way.

Also, Collosi are still a terribly designed unit and I would welcome it, if they left the game for good.
08/28/2015 11:17 AMPosted by zerganator
I think keeping the macro mechanics in this bastardized state is a waste of time, like their design it just getting more and more confused with every attempt you make to keep them in the game.
08/28/2015 10:28 AMPosted by Dayvie
However, another thing we’ve been exploring in this area is to have a more interesting upgrade for the Adept other than the health buff. Per your suggestion we’re trying to see if a damage upgrade is more relevant for this unit.

08/28/2015 10:28 AMPosted by Dayvie
For the next balance patch, we’ll greatly reduce this number, but we’re not sure yet if the added damage for this upgrade is correct in the long run.

If you do both of these things, then both units will be damage-dealing units (roles overlap again).

And you still have problems with this:

08/28/2015 10:28 AMPosted by Dayvie
We’ve been exploring with much lower damage on charge internally, and what we’re finding is something we’ve known and been talking about for long time. It’s very difficult to do a minor buff to such massable tier 1 units, because the impact of a minor buff adds up due to the ability to effectively mass these units so easily in the later stages of the game.

You might consider, instead, doing something like making the zealot the tank (again) and the adept the DPS unit.

Something like:

  • zealots gain 30 shield HP in a pool which is normally empty
  • upon charging zealots' (possibly only ones with non-0 shields in the normal pool) shield pool is filled up and it takes damage first
  • 2 (real) seconds after charging, the shield pool is depleted to 0 if it is not already empty

This just means that zealots gain some tanking capability quickly after they charge. This would make them the premier tank.

For the adept, you already have my suggestions ... but the idea is that it should be a generalist DPS unit (not specialized to +light as it currently just eliminates light units from others' play) with low-ish (for cost / protoss) health ... this increases the micro NEEDED to keep your damage as well as the reward for microing against adepts.

Anyway, this is the kind of update that gives hope -- and I desperately needed it. Hopefully the hope will shine through into promise in the game itself. :D
Great update! Nice to know you're considering new options for macro mechanics.

While I'm glad to see Chrono and MULEs will be back, I would have to test the current suggestions before I give real opinions on them. First reaction is: it's the right direction.

MULEs requiring a certain radius to be cast within is a great idea, since Command Centers can be moved around. That should help the MULE-spamming in lategame. Not sure about Autocasting MULE drops though.. might be too easy even if defaulted Off.

I wouldn't mind if MULEs were used less often.. maybe make them require 10 more Energy to use, and last 25% longer. They'd need less focus, and should be a better harass target. Might even the playing field since SCVs currently feel more valuable.

As for Chrono, I like it staying on a building until you move it. Maybe it could speed up production by 50% for about 10-15 seconds, then slow to 33% after that. Giving each Nexus one Chrono to use on any building would be fun, and could balance out the Warp nerf. Chrono Boost could also activate right after Cybernetics Core is built.

I wonder if queens could just start with 20 Energy instead of 25. Seems like a fair nerf, as Zergs would have a couple seconds to grab the queen before it injects.. in case they'd rather spread creep, transfuse, attack with it or even disable autocast.

As for Tempest, I think a Speed boost ability with significant cooldown (maybe even as an upgrade) would make this unit much more fun to micro. Carrier makes sense as the slow capital ship, and tempest the slightly faster one. I would also like to see Tempest shots have less frequency, but do slightly more damage as a tradeoff. Their shots are very annoying to hear, but less frequency/more damage might feel more like their role.

Oracle's Revelation could get an increased range, but less duration and energy cost. I would use it more often and spread over wider ranges, becoming a more reliable spell.

The only other request I still have, is to make Overlord drops into their own unit called Overtakers.. so Zergs have a choice to either make those or Overseers.
regarding macro mechanics:

-inject: the auto-cast makes the race way to easy, now any plat+ player has the same macro of life, soo or any other top tier korean. maybe increasing the energy cost, larva number it gives with each cycle and cycle time would be better: it makes it easier but it still helps differentiate between the great players and the scrubs on ladder.

-chronboost: Protoss already require less apm than the other races, keep the chronoboost as in hots, perhaps with a slight nerf, it makes it so much interesting and intuitive!

-mules: really love this change!

Other changes:

agree with pretty much all of them. On thing that should be really changed is the immortal shield ability, just revert it to hots: its so much better and more intuitive! protoss units have way to many spells already...

overall pretty good patch, gg!
Thanks for the update Dayvie, I'm very happy to see nerfed versions of macro mechanics coming back instead of complete removal. This is a step forward for race uniqueness, speeding up the pace of the game, and easier to manage auto-cast abilities.

Background: LOTV GM Random, 1v1/Archon, 1,000 games. Made it to quarter-finals of Redbull Archon Tournament Qualifiers last month under team name Crash Bandicoot.

A few things that came to mind with these changes:
1) MULEs can no longer be called down to repair mech units or floating buildings on the field, which was one of its best alternative uses. Any chance you could try other nerfs?

2) Auto-inject for Zerg is a larger buff than auto-cast abilities for T/P, both because of centralized production and its APM sink requirements. How will you compensate for this?

Lastly, I would like to suggest a simple alternative:
-Auto-cast returns 75% efficiency, manual cast returns 100% (HOTS) efficiency.
-In the options menu, checkbox for whether or not auto-cast is set to default.

This gives anyone that used to only hit their injects <75% of the time an instant boost to 75% efficiency, while still providing a macro skill ceiling option for everyone that has practiced their injects and wants to devote more of their APM to macroing at home.

I'm worried that removing macro mechanics or setting all of them to default auto-cast will overemphasize micro since you're spending significantly more time babysitting your units now rather than focusing on crucial macro tasks. Bad for SC2 gameplay IMO.

Thanks for reading!
I never comment on the forums but feel like I have to for this post.

As a Terran player, I want to first state that I was super excited with the removal of the macro mechanics. I agree with most other Terrans that it was a pretty big nerf to the race and that it hit us pretty hard early game. However, I was still super excited about it because during my time playing the Beta I felt like I had more time to focus on expanding, defending expansions, and practicing micro, and I couldn't use Mule as a crutch for bad macro.

In terms of Protoss, I finally felt like with all the changes in terms of macro and the warp-in mechanics, that Protoss was finally forced to think more strategically about pylon placement, Gateway placement, as well as where to warp in. Yes, it takes a while to get used too, and I think that's why a lot of Protoss players were annoyed. But it was definitely better for the race's design overall and over time will remove the stigma of Protoss as a gimmicky race. Also, Protoss players could not use chrono as a crutch for bad macro (I always felt like chrono was the most imbalanced of the macro mechanics). Along with the Disruptor changes, I felt like Protoss took a big step forward in their design.

For Zerg, I feel like they've been in a pretty damn good place since the beginning of beta (partially why you'll see so many Zergs on ladder). My first impression of the macro changes made me think that the auto-inject was a bit overpowered. But after thinking about it, I now believe it was the right choice because Zerg players still had to think about getting queens for each base, and expanding appropriately.

When initially reading this Community Update I was extremely hesitant about bringing back macro mechanics. Once again though, after thinking about it more, I believe that this was the right compromise between those that wanted their complete removal, and those that wanted them nerfed. After re-reading the changes a few times, I'm actually completely on-board with them now. They're all very similar in their nature with auto-cast, and the fact that this update also lent itself towards balancing the game as well, I think this will be really fun to play once it's released. I had already fully switched over from HOTS to LOTV Beta, but now I'm even more stoked to play.

In terms of the possible balance changes at the bottom, the one thing I will say is: PLEASE DELETE THE COLOSSUS FROM THE GAME PERMANENTLY! DO NOT ATTEMPT TO MAKE IT VIABLE! There are many others that agree that Colossus is the least fun thing to play against in HOTS, and if you bring it back I truly fear that the gameplay for Protoss will revert to HOTS-style with deathball pushes. That is the one thing I truly hated with HOTS. If necessary, I would suggest introducing a new unit but please please please do not bring Colossus back. Also, moving the overlord drops to Lair-tech is something I've wanted since the change was introduced. Please do this in the next patch, and thank you for acknowledging it. Finally, the only thing I would like to see at some point is some kind of design change to the forcefield. People have made many suggestions in this regard and I beg you to look into it.

Lastly, wanted to give a big shoutout to Blizz for this update. I had already pre-ordered the Complete Collection (Deluxe Edition), and was scared that I would regret the decision. However, this update has put my nerves to rest. THANK YOU BLIZZ!
08/28/2015 10:49 AMPosted by ScorpionKing
Just when I thought you could not get any dumber...You go out and... TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELVES.

The chronoboost idea is godly. Why didn't we think of that?

Mule idea. Godly

Zerg idea. Godly.

This is all I needed to see, guys - preordering when I get home

I remember seeing something like the chrono change suggested once, a long time ago. Perhaps before LotV beta. Don't think it was taken well back then, but now I think it's a really elegant solution. (to clarify, not saying Blizzard didn't come up with this on their own)

I like the MULE solution.

Not sure about the Zerg inject change... But maybe okay with the other races' macro strengths back some. Creep change sounds fun.

Revelation buff, cool.

Disagree with the direction of Tempests. I get that the ability was kinda boring, but what evidence is there that BCs and BLs actually need such a counter? I thought Protoss was struggling more against mass air armies with support such as Muta/Corrupter/Viper, or am I wrong? I wouldn't mind the Tempest keeping it's current attack, but what if Disintegration was replaced an interesting air - to - air splash ability? Wouldn't even *have * to deal damage.

While I believe Chargelots are much more fun now, I do agree it is a little overboard. If the adept gets a general damage role, I could certainly see Chargelots getting a speed and /or durability buff. But I would still like some Charge damage, it creates interesting positional, tactical, and compositional strategy options.
Why is mule reduced in effectiveness, when chrono still boosts out probes and larva inject went up one? Protoss buffs and terran nerfs.

Overall headed in the right direction. Consider making abilities unable to be autocast after league X.
E.G. mules must be manually cast from diamond league up. There seems to be some confusion with the cyclone. The cyclone is unable to use its basic attack ground to air. This does not make sense as its primary need was tier two anti air. TvP is frustrating for terran mech bc there is no way to apply pressure early on without making marines or making a star port. If the cyclone had its basic attack ground to air.... which ... it... still confuses me why this was removed.... the mech player could pressure with two factories and expand .... this would offer an exciting variation from the barracks reactor factory starport opener mech players have now.

Currently if the Protoss player gets aggressive on one base -> Mech Terran expands defensively but requires marines and starport to defend everything if Mech terran made two factories he will be unable to hold certain proxies (proxy void ray stalker is unrealistic to hold without marines and bunkers.... it would be interesting if cyclones could kill voidrays as their main roll is AA or atleast be able to go kill the proxy starport)

Currently if the Protoss player fast expands to two base -> 2 factory Mech Terran dies to starport tech so he expands defensively

In conclusion, the overall changes are good but please consider giving cyclone its basic attack back ground to air and removing auto cast from the game.
Congratulation DK! With your new update, you completely make me really want to abandon the beta and wait for the end of the game.
You guys can call me an old-fashioned person, but i prefer to buid-up my own economy, my own stronghold by MYSELF. Auto inject is already like a real heavy punch to my face. Now, auto mule, auto chronoboost and +1 auto inject??? WOW, just really really a very big WOW!!!
I understand that Lotv is a pretty hard game to master especially for the newbie. But, what is the source of this difficulty? Does this difficulty make the game better compare to its predecessor? I believe the answer is: NO! And it is because of you, Blizzard! It is because of all the hard counter, clumping, etc, all the fail foundation you make that cause the game to this state.
Bandaids after bandaids. And now, to lessen the game, to appeal more players, to earn more money from their pocket, you just ruin one of the most significance aspect of the game by adding the "AUTO" thing for all 3 races? Even in Korea, players are being affected by those MOBAs syndrome. And now Blizzard is listening to them, and turning my most beloved RTS game to a large scale battle MOBA game???? Macro is now so easy, lets focus on army, battles all over the place. Lotv is somekind of MOBA games now!

Very disappointed.
Dayvie, I really hope you realize that the best part about removing macro mechanics is not that it makes the game easier as whole because in case of terran and Protoss it doesn't Mule and Chrono don't take much mechanical skill to execute. It requires minimum, APM.

The best part of removing macro mechanics is that it slows down the pace of the game as whole. You max out slower, you pump out units slower thus creating more and more scrappy fights with small groups of units. If this version of macro mechanics you are bringing back is strong then the change will be pointless and the game will be back to HotS's state of maxing out super fast and clashing with big army. I will be really disappointed if you don't realize this.
Can you please restore the option to disable the newb tooltips ?
They are very annoying.

Thank you
What are your thoughts on base management between races? Terran and Protoss have things to do at home like switching addons/managing chrono while Zerg is left with almost nothing as long as injects are autocast. This is something I haven't seen addressed yet that I'd like to hear your considerations on.

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