Community Feedback Update - October 22

General Discussion
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Hey everyone – we’re back with another community feedback update. We’ve got a number of different units to discuss this week, as well as some recent considerations around Automated Tournaments.

Lurker timing
We agree this is an issue in PvZ, and are currently looking at increasing the build time on the Lurker Den. However, we don’t want to go too heavy with this nerf because our upcoming Adept buff naturally means that Zerg teching will be slowed down a bit as well. We are aiming to get a change in for this for tomorrow’s balance update.

Liberator
Like many of you pointed out, the Liberator comes out fairly early, and its large range can be a bit problematic on certain maps. We wonder if there’s some potential fun we can have with Liberators early on that don’t have such a high range. We’ve been playtesting a version of the Liberator where the cast range of the ability is very short, but a research isn’t required to be able to transform. In addition, we’ve added a range upgrade to this ability with a Fusion Core requirement so that the high range only comes into play in the late game.

The general idea here is that Liberators could immediately have a lot of interaction, but also be counterable due to the much lower range. Opponents playing against Liberators will need to react and scout accordingly to Terran players that upgrade into the long range once they have a Fusion Core.

Carrier
We agree with your feedback in that even after the build time reduction, Carriers with the Release Interceptor ability are most likely too strong for cost in head-on engagements. We’ve been trying various changes, and we wonder if just a straight up Carrier health nerf is a decent way to go. This allows Carriers to retain the powerful moments with their new ability, but also allows the counters to Carriers to be stronger as well.

The goal for the Carrier is to not nerf the unit too much, as we would like them to be much stronger units in LotV than they were in HotS. But if further nerfs are needed in addition to what we’re doing in tomorrow’s balance update, we can definitely tune it down more in the future.

Siege Tank Medivac drop
As we often point out, it’s not as helpful for us when you give extreme feedback such as “this will never work no matter what, and it has to be completely removed from the game.” I’m sure many of you out there have seen plenty of times throughout this beta process that issues are rarely this extreme.

It’s pretty easy to just do a complete removal of this interaction, and we definitely can if we know for certain that it can’t ever work. Until that point, we want to fully explore various numbers before deciding to give up on a change especially if the potential for it looks good. We’re not saying we disagree with the feedback that it can’t ever work as we definitely saw some examples where the interaction felt like too much (especially in TvT games), but we want to fully explore the idea and make sure we’re not losing something that can be awesome just because of overreacting too quickly.

With that said, we’d like to continue testing the pick-up and drop micro of Siege Tanks in Siege mode. As a last resort we definitely have the option of doing either a complete removal or using the suggestion of picking-up to save Siege Mode tanks, but we want to test out tuning changes before making this call. Currently we’re looking at longer delay values when a Siege Tank in Siege mode is dropped before they can attack.

Adept

Like we talked about last week, we are looking to give +10 shields back to the Adept. We believe going with this nerf and the Warp-in nerfs at the same time was too much of a nerf overall, not because the Adept isn’t a useful unit right now, but mostly because we’d like to push the strength of new units for the release of LotV in order to see new strategies and interactions come up with the new game. We’d like to test out reverting this nerf and see where the Adept stands in strength, now that the Adept Warp-ins aren’t as difficult to deal with due to the Warp-in changes.

Photon Overcharge
We agree with your feedback in that Photon Overcharge may be a bit too spammable right now. Currently however, we’re adjusting multiple things that affect Protoss such as the Lurker timing issue and the early game Adept strength issue. What we’re currently thinking is - if after tomorrow’s patch, both of these things are in a better spot, we can potentially explore increasing Photon Overcharge to 50 energy so that the ability has to be used more strategically and with good positioning. Please give us your thoughts in this area so that we can explore all options before making the right call.

The goal of Photon Overcharge is to allow Protoss players to control specific locations in a powerful, defensive way so that Protoss can keep up with expansions. We believe this is important because of the resource changes, but we do agree that its current raw strength and spammable nature might be an issue.

Nydus Worm
We hear your feedback that the Nydus Worm all-ins can seem nearly unstoppable. At the same time, we haven’t actually seen this strategy in used often enough to make conclusive decisions. We’re not saying we disagree with your feedback, but rather that we want to be careful with nerfs that could be premature overreactions. Our current plan for the Nydus Worm is to watch closely, and if they to turn out to be too strong, we can tune the delay before the units can unload after a Nydus Worm finishes constructing so that players can counter the strategy when they have enough units in position . We believe this sort of change is better than doing a full revert to HotS. Before LoTV, all it really took is pulling workers to kill the Nydus Worm before they can finish constructing. As compared to with the proposed change, depending on how we tune the numbers, having enough units to quickly focus fire down the Nydus will create more interesting moments.

Automated Tournament schedule
We heard your feedback and saw your suggestions regarding automated tournament schedules. The solutions to a majority of your feedback can be answered with the quality of match making. The reason tournaments are currently held every 3 hours in the beta, and the reason why we don’t just start a tournament when the first 8 or 16 players sign up, is because we want automated tournaments to be a competitive experience no matter what skill level you are playing at. For example, if we were to go with the somewhat popular suggestion of having tournaments up all the time, and we just initiate tournaments every time we have enough players, the skill of players in that tournament will potentially range from Bronze to Grand Master.

Also, due to the low population of the beta, we’re clearly seeing that the match making quality per tournament is not good right now. Of course the match making quality will be better at the launch of LotV, but we do want to start off more conservative, since making tournaments more frequent in the future is much easier than reducing the frequency. We are also exploring ways to have more frequent tournaments at specific times, such as when we expect influxes of players to automated tournaments at the beginning of a new ladder season.

We don’t have set plans on where we’ll land regarding the amount and frequency of tournaments in LotV, so we wanted to relay our current thoughts to you guys so that you can understand our position and also share your thoughts.

Thank you for continuing to iterate your ideas and suggestions throughout the beta, and we hope you enjoy the upcoming changes!
dayum !
10/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Dayvie
AdeptLike we talked about last week, we are looking to give +10 shields back to the Adept. We believe going with this nerf and the Warp-in nerfs at the same time was too much of a nerf overall, not because the Adept isn’t a useful unit right now, but mostly because we’d like to push the strength of new units for the release of LotV in order to see new strategies and interactions come up with the new game. We’d like to test out reverting this nerf and see where the Adept stands in strength, now that the Adept Warp-ins aren’t as difficult to deal with due to the Warp-in changes.


The Adept s fine...
U see them like 99,99% in every matchup.
How about buffing Stalkers instead? They are only useful in ZvP and that only in the first 7 min.

But i mostly agree with the other ideas for changes.
Why not just make it so that the nydus can be cancelled, like every other building?
Waiting for new patch and play hard as protoss to prove that pylon cannon should go or at least to get nerf hammer.
I like these changes. Can't wait to try out the new liberator tomorrow.
Overall another disappointing update with nothing new from the previous ones. Remove photon overcharge Rebuffed adepts give gateway plenty of defense so they can expand.
Siege tank pickup: Make it so that you can pick them up, but they garrison in the Medivac unsieged. People clearly dislike the contradicting design choice of a harassing, defensive area-lockdown unit.

Adept: Give us a core unit, Protoss doesn't need an anti-light specialist in the gateway. Make it do flat damage, change its armored tag to light or biological (or both), and consider making it shoot up. It would be better for it to overlap with the stalker, as that unit is more suitable for all ins, rather than the Zealot, which to me at least seems to be intended to be a core unit as well. After this change you will see that the necessity of PO and the MSC itself are questionable and need to be looked into. I'm fine with the +10 shields, but do the above, too. Perhaps a different upgrade in the twilight council would be good, too.

Carrier: Nerfed hp sounds good, but don't punish the build time so harshly. Nerf interceptors slightly if you must. The build time change creates an incentive to deathball, and no one really wants that.

Liberator: Would prefer the Goliath any day to this unit still. The whole deal of it being a quick, flying Thor just feels silly to me.

Nydus: The suggested change would be great. Don't wait too long.

Disruptor:Make the skill shot more avoidable. It's too fast and no one can really split against this.

Lurker:Disruptors really destroy them. Reduce the time it takes them to unburrow. I'm fine with delaying their timing, but make them usable against armies that have disruptors provided there's good micro.
I love this liberator idea
10/22/2015 11:00 AMPosted by CrazyBread
I like these changes. Can't wait to try out the new liberator tomorrow.


This!
nydus worm:

-remove invincibility
-when placed on creep, costs less and no global sound
-when placed off creep, costs more and has global sound
-balance is just numbers

please.
10/22/2015 10:54 AMPosted by NickiMinaj
How about buffing Stalkers instead? They are only useful in ZvP and that only in the first 7 min.


I am a platinum Protoss and for me stalkers are fine, they are useful in every matchup.
I definitely like the liberator change. Caters to all the noobs who whined about it ( sorry but high diamond and master league players are already able to thoroughly counter liberators), but at the same still gives it the same potential it had before just at a later timing, with an even earlier timing window now opening up where they'll be less lethal but still able to harass and punish players that don't scout properly.

The photon overcharge simply needs to be removed along with the mothership core..It's just a lazy attempt at patching up a giant hole in the Protoss design. If the extra macro mechanics were removed it'd be less of an issue since Terran couldn't MMM swarm early-mid game nearly as effectively to make PO seem needed. But of course at this point that's out of the question, so perhaps you guys should consider making cannons have a cybernetics core upgrade that gives them an AoE attack? Or something else along those lines that comes too late in the game to be used for early game cheese and makes cannons more effective static defense. Just brain storming, but yeah the issue is hard to tackle with the hole you dug yourself into Blizzard!

Nydus worm is fine imo with the liberator and disruptor now in the game. You can annihilate anything that comes out of the worm with these new units. You should have your entire base revealed too so it doesn't completely take you by surprise.

Carriers definitely needed a nerf of some sort so good job there and siege tank pick up with medivacs should stay in the game for TvZ where we have to deal with blinding cloud and ravagers. Tanks would be far too easily countered otherwise. Do people not even consider this? Ravagers are an extremely good low tier counter to tanks so of course they're gonna need an extra edge in lotv! Siege tank harass isn't even that good compared to other forms of harass so I fail to see why it's even such a big issue. Banshees, liberators, marine drops are all usually way more effective and require way less apm to pull off.
Overall, I like the continual balance tweaks, but I'm not sure if adding more shields to the adept is moving in the right direction. Adepts are still strong, just not abusively so.
Disruptors hard counter Lurkers.

If you increase lurker den time its back to roach vs roach in ZvZ
noice

maybe for nydus worm make it have enough armor/health to where worker surround has limited damage, but other units when prepared does reasonable damage as well.
NOTHING ABOUT THE HORRENDOUS CHAT SYSTEM?

Everything else was good, though. Better than last weak's update.

I'm anticipating the update for October 29th, the very last community update we'll probably ever see.
It's not that we think "siege tank pickup will never work and has to be removed", it's that a lot of people (myself included) just don't want it in the game - it's not a balance complaint, but a design issue. Picking up tanks removes the unique identity of the tank as an immobile but powerful unit. If you want tanks to be used more often, a better buff would simply be to increase the damage of the tank so they can establish a better defensive position.
No news on Cyclone? Im disappointed :(.
10/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Dayvie
The general idea here is that Liberators could immediately have a lot of interaction, but also be counterable due to the much lower range. Opponents playing against Liberators will need to react and scout accordingly to Terran players that upgrade into the long range once they have a Fusion Core.


that is not the liberator nerf i was expecting.... having an upgrade on the fusion core is just asking not to get used, i think lowering the cast rang (pre-oct 23 update) by about 15ish% and the making the the bubble they can shoot in a little smaller 10% and a tech lab requirement.
honestly i don't see the point in making a !@#$ ton of upgrades this expac, the goal is to make the game easier to play (on the low level) and more approachable, as someone who's trying to switch to terran this is really difficult.

10/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Dayvie
We agree this is an issue in PvZ, and are currently looking at increasing the build time on the Lurker Den


10/22/2015 10:11 AMPosted by Dayvie
We hear your feedback that the Nydus Worm all-ins can seem nearly unstoppable.


i think a lurker den build time nerf is not a good idea, it already takes pretty long to morph it, in the grand scheme of things. and the nydus worm, i do think saying "unstoppable" is a little to strong of a word imho, i think they're really strong but they have a lot of weaknesses and i also think that most players are just now learning how to counter it once it's out, maybe doing effects like someone said above: creep cost less and doesn't make a sound, or bring back health, maybe giving it Ultra style armor? so it's killable but really hard to kill..
regarding the adept: i still think it's in a pretty good spot, its a core unit that lies cost wise somewhere between the stalker and the sentry, i think instead of addressing the adept like this, revisiting the stalker may be better. the carriers are still really stronk.... i like that your finally addressing the health issues, i think maybe you should make interceptors target-able by PB?
in regards to "tankivac" i think maybe removing boost while the tank is attached? you still allow that exciting micro but at the cost of potential losses. (no just boosting away when things get hairy

something that should be addressed and maybe on the table right now:
Ultras..... oh boy..... i main zerg and i think that the dependency on the god ultra in the late game is almost too offsetting, for game play, the zerg race seems just a repetitive as HotS, not saying it's bad but i think a SH or another look at the Infestor should be in order, creating more variety should be promoted and it just doesn't feel like that. also the ultra is just too strong, but in order to nerf it zerg needs something that can compete with siege tank/ disruptor based armies.
PB: stacking is a little strong, i think setting a max stack may be an approach worth looking at (ie. only three PB's stack anything else doesn't do more damage to things already being touches by those three)

in conclusion, i know i'm biased as %^-* and there are other issues for protoss and terran that need to be addressed, just doing my best to give a civilized argument and thoughts to the update

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