The FACT of zerg imbalance

General Discussion
Prev 1 2 3 6 Next
11/20/2015 11:27 AMPosted by Death
Yea because being that the game has been out for 10 days...obviously the ladder statistics show everything.

You got a A+ in statistics huh


Exactly. In experimental physics class ATM, and if we decide to make observations in a short period of time(seconds), and than try to determine what happens in a much longer period, we would flunk so hard.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Yeah and people aren't causing climate change right? Hang on tight to that bias bro 'cause it's all that you've got.


Ah, the ad hominem: the tellsign of someone who can't articulate because they know they're wrong. GG no re.

So you're someone who can't articulate because they know they're wrong? see "more factors than the digits on that hand you're missing 3 fingers from", "your track record for inflamitory, trollbait posting".

The fact that you think the over performance of zerg is due to "a lot of terran players who were in ligher levels due to MMM every game are no longer doing well because pure MMM with no transition is bad now" which has zero bearing on protoss, and ignore the fact that the developing meta game has almost no bearing on lower leagues and so does nothing to explain the skew at that level, shows clearly that your arguments are based primarily on bias. The assertion that zerg is affected the least by the changing meta and that explains their over performance is based on what exactly? Nothing but the fact that they are over performing. It's a circular argument with no supporting evidence at all. You're clutching at straws in the face of overwhelming data. You can close your eyes and pretend that reality doens't exist as much as you like, but the world will keep on turning.

GG no re bro
Zerg has always been underrepresented in bronze/silver simply because the new players doesn't understand or can't handle the race mechanic. Take any race distribution from 2013 to today you'll see.
11/20/2015 12:47 PMPosted by PatchRandom

So you're someone who can't articulate because they know they're wrong? see "more factors than the digits on that hand you're missing 3 fingers from", "your track record for inflamitory, trollbait posting".

The fact that you think the over performance of zerg is due to "a lot of terran players who were in ligher levels due to MMM every game are no longer doing well because pure MMM with no transition is bad now" which has zero bearing on protoss, and ignore the fact that the developing meta game has almost no bearing on lower leagues and so does nothing to explain the skew at that level, shows clearly that your arguments are based primarily on bias. The assertion that zerg is affected the least by the changing meta and that explains their over performance is based on what exactly? Nothing but the fact that they are over performing. It's a circular argument with no supporting evidence at all. You're clutching at straws in the face of overwhelming data. You can close your eyes and pretend that reality doens't exist as much as you like, but the world will keep on turning.

GG no re bro


Tries to use Ladder breakdown after only 10 days to prove an imbalance.

Tells us that we are clutching at straws in the face of overwhelming data.

At this point blizzard needs to put emojis into the forums because there is no words to describe the look on my face right now.
You need to cross reference this data with the amount of players playing each race. Average would be 30/30/30/10 (10% play random), but in LotV I believe the highest % of people are playing Zerg, so if for example 40% are playing Zerg, you'd expect 40% in GM and every other category. If 35% are playing Zerg, you would expect ~35% in each division.

Also GM I think is too small of a sample size to do an accurate statistics on. Instead of the 1000s or 10000s we're talking 200 people. At that point it could come down mostly to chance how the races are distributed and a single person getting a GM promotion skews the results by 0.5% for a particular race.

Edit: Oh and at what ChuckNovice said, I didn't even think about that. Most new players either go for Terran or Protoss. Adding in larvae as an extra mechanic normally confuses most players and it's hard for them to grasp improvement with zerg as the "always create army, always create workers" doesn't apply.
11/20/2015 12:46 PMPosted by BlackRa
11/20/2015 11:27 AMPosted by Death
Yea because being that the game has been out for 10 days...obviously the ladder statistics show everything.

You got a A+ in statistics huh


Exactly. In experimental physics class ATM, and if we decide to make observations in a short period of time(seconds), and than try to determine what happens in a much longer period, we would flunk so hard.

Right, because racial balance in star craft needs to be held to the same degree of accuracy as experimental physics. Get out. The data is easily sufficient to confirm a trend here.
11/20/2015 12:56 PMPosted by Richard
You need to cross reference this data with the amount of players playing each race. Average would be 30/30/30/10 (10% play random), but in LotV I believe the highest % of people are playing Zerg, so if for example 40% are playing Zerg, you'd expect 40% in GM and every other category. If 35% are playing Zerg, you would expect ~35% in each division.


True. I already did but I didn't want to get into too much detail in the first post since most people wouldn't want to read it if I did. The numbers are something like: T: 28%, Z: 31%, P: 28%

Clearly the data still shows a skew towards placing zergs in higher leagues.
11/20/2015 12:58 PMPosted by PatchRandom
11/20/2015 12:46 PMPosted by BlackRa
...

Exactly. In experimental physics class ATM, and if we decide to make observations in a short period of time(seconds), and than try to determine what happens in a much longer period, we would flunk so hard.

Right, because racial balance in star craft needs to be held to the same degree of accuracy as experimental physics. Get out. The data is easily sufficient to confirm a trend here.


!@#$ dude, you should do standup. You're hilarious.
11/20/2015 12:56 PMPosted by Death
11/20/2015 12:47 PMPosted by PatchRandom

So you're someone who can't articulate because they know they're wrong? see "more factors than the digits on that hand you're missing 3 fingers from", "your track record for inflamitory, trollbait posting".

The fact that you think the over performance of zerg is due to "a lot of terran players who were in ligher levels due to MMM every game are no longer doing well because pure MMM with no transition is bad now" which has zero bearing on protoss, and ignore the fact that the developing meta game has almost no bearing on lower leagues and so does nothing to explain the skew at that level, shows clearly that your arguments are based primarily on bias. The assertion that zerg is affected the least by the changing meta and that explains their over performance is based on what exactly? Nothing but the fact that they are over performing. It's a circular argument with no supporting evidence at all. You're clutching at straws in the face of overwhelming data. You can close your eyes and pretend that reality doens't exist as much as you like, but the world will keep on turning.

GG no re bro


Tries to use Ladder breakdown after only 10 days to prove an imbalance.

Tells us that we are clutching at straws in the face of overwhelming data.

At this point blizzard needs to put emojis into the forums because there is no words to describe the look on my face right now.

when you're getting your data from a sample of 100,000 and the trend is so pronounced, it's obvious that it's more than random chance. So yes you are clutching at straws. Zerg is too easy/over powered.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Right, because racial balance in star craft needs to be held to the same degree of accuracy as experimental physics. Get out. The data is easily sufficient to confirm a trend here.


!@#$ dude, you should do standup. You're hilarious.

Sorry that you got rekt so hard mate, try not to take it too badly.
OpieOP
11/20/2015 01:04 PMPosted by PatchRandom

when you're getting your data from a sample of 100,000 and the trend is so pronounced, it's obvious that it's more than random chance. So yes you are clutching at straws. Zerg is too easy/over powered.


You are ignoring the fact that the game has only been out for 10 days. This forum is proof of the fact of how people still have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

As an example cyclones mass counter ultras, but you hear all the people !@#$%ing non stop...although if you saw a zerg pushing quickly to hive tech and made 5-6 cyclones you would be completely fine. They can kite them all day long. With the support of bio or hellbat/siege tank...also liberators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvtwEXtb5_0

Here is an example showing how weak ultras are against cyclones.

This is also completely ignoring the fact that nobody has any sort of meta game. Nobody knows timings...like as an example if I scout terran early and see them go gas before barracks I know almost immediately that they are going to do a reaper opening.

It used to be that by 6 minutes you would expect a hellion push from terran if they flipped their factory over to their barracks. Now that is closer to around 3 min - 3:30.

Knowing these timings are crucial to playing well and getting good scouts off. So until everyone settles into LoTV the ladder percentage breakdown at this moment just show that zerg is having an easier time adjusting.

That's all it means. It says absolutely nothing about race balance yet.
11/20/2015 12:58 PMPosted by PatchRandom
Right, because racial balance in star craft needs to be held to the same degree of accuracy as experimental physics. Get out. The data is easily sufficient to confirm a trend here.

No, it's not. Not to say that the stats wont end up that way once you do have sufficient data (I don't dare speculate), but that is not sufficient data...
<span class="truncated">...</span>

!@#$ dude, you should do standup. You're hilarious.

Sorry that you got rekt so hard mate, try not to take it too badly.


Lol, let's be realistic about what's in our pants. You didn't rek anyone but yourself. You've been told why by multiple people - all you can do is use fallacies to insult as a rebuttal. That's a tell sign. A tell sign that you're delusional and delusional people can't be reasoned with.

Come back with this thread after 4 weeks and you'll have a better case to make, it won't be perfect but at least then you'll have a basis for your statistical analysis.
Look it is this simple. When trying to look at figures like this you can't ignore all of the variables that can effect your data...which is exactly what you are doing.

As an examples when they do studies for medication they always run with one main group taking the drug and one control group taking the placebo who thinks they are taking the drug.

Doing this helps compare changes in both groups to have better understanding over how those variables outside of the medication are effecting your experiment so you can get more accurate data.

Here you are ignoring those variables and expecting everything to be an accurate depiction proving your point. However that is not the case and you just look silly for trying to pursue this path of reasoning.
The beta was out for 8 months and no one found a solution to these issues. There is not going to be some sudden change in the meta game that reverses this trend. Yes, the degree of the skew will most likely variate due to developing meta over the next month or two, so of course if I was going by the standards of experimental physics I would wait to measure the accuracy of my projection before making any kind of argument, but that's not what this is and that degree of accuracy is not needed. The trend may become less pronounced as higher skilled players find a way to beat lesser skilled players despite the imbalance, but that it the most that your extra variables can expect to account for. A trend of this strength will not be reversed until there are changes made to the race. Stop kidding yourselves into thinking it will all sort itself out if people l2p because it will not. Zerg is over powered. Fact.


Lol, let's be realistic about what's in our pants. You didn't rek anyone but yourself. You've been told why by multiple people - all you can do is use fallacies to insult as a rebuttal. That's a tell sign. A tell sign that you're delusional and delusional people can't be reasoned with.

The funny thing is that you are the one resorting to fallacies and insults, much more than me. You should be aiming all of your posts at yourself.


Lol, let's be realistic about what's in our pants. You didn't rek anyone but yourself. You've been told why by multiple people - all you can do is use fallacies to insult as a rebuttal. That's a tell sign. A tell sign that you're delusional and delusional people can't be reasoned with.

Come back with this thread after 4 weeks and you'll have a better case to make, it won't be perfect but at least then you'll have a basis for your statistical analysis.

The funny thing is that you are the one resorting to fallacies and insults, much more than me. You should be aiming all of your posts at yourself.


lol, what fallacies?

I said you need to keep more than 2 variabes in mind and then called you funny because you basically told someone who pointed out that you don't have a long enough time line to establish a trend to get out.

Those aren't fallacies of any kind. But hey, this is expected from someone who's delusional, which you've proved you are. So go ahead and detract from the main point here: which is you're wrong and refuse to listen to multipele people who articulated why you're wrong. Because when in doubt, insult people then try to distract from how foolish you look! It'll totally convince other people *sarcasm*.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
The funny thing is that you are the one resorting to fallacies and insults, much more than me. You should be aiming all of your posts at yourself.


lol, what fallacies?

I said you need to keep more than 2 variabes in mind and then called you funny because you basically told someone who pointed out that you don't have a long enough time line to establish a trend to get out.

Those aren't fallacies of any kind. But hey, this is expected from someone who's delusional, which you've proved you are. So go ahead and detract from the main point here: which is you're wrong and refuse to listen to multipele people who articulated why you're wrong. Because when in doubt, insult people then try to distract from how foolish you look! It'll totally convince other people *sarcasm*.


The beta was out for 8 months and no one found a solution to these issues. There is not going to be some sudden change in the meta game that reverses this trend. Yes, the degree of the skew will most likely variate due to developing meta over the next month or two, so of course if I was going by the standards of experimental physics I would wait to measure the accuracy of my projection before making any kind of argument, but that's not what this is and that degree of accuracy is not needed. The trend may become less pronounced as higher skilled players find a way to beat lesser skilled players despite the imbalance, but that it the most that your extra variables can expect to account for. A trend of this strength will not be reversed until there are changes made to the race. Stop kidding yourselves into thinking it will all sort itself out if people l2p because it will not. Zerg is over powered. Fact.


Also, stop being a hypocrite. You can't criticise someone's argument on the basis of them using insults, while in the same breath trying to insult them. You need to take your own advice. Your arguments are saturated with ad hominem and straw mans. Get a grip buddy.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

lol, what fallacies?

I said you need to keep more than 2 variabes in mind and then called you funny because you basically told someone who pointed out that you don't have a long enough time line to establish a trend to get out.

Those aren't fallacies of any kind. But hey, this is expected from someone who's delusional, which you've proved you are. So go ahead and detract from the main point here: which is you're wrong and refuse to listen to multipele people who articulated why you're wrong. Because when in doubt, insult people then try to distract from how foolish you look! It'll totally convince other people *sarcasm*.


The beta was out for 8 months and no one found a solution to these issues. There is not going to be some sudden change in the meta game that reverses this trend. Yes, the degree of the skew will most likely variate due to developing meta over the next month or two, so of course if I was going by the standards of experimental physics I would wait to measure the accuracy of my projection before making any kind of argument, but that's not what this is and that degree of accuracy is not needed. The trend may become less pronounced as higher skilled players find a way to beat lesser skilled players despite the imbalance, but that it the most that your extra variables can expect to account for. A trend of this strength will not be reversed until there are changes made to the race. Stop kidding yourselves into thinking it will all sort itself out if people l2p because it will not. Zerg is over powered. Fact.


Beta was totally different bar...what? The last 3 or 4 patches which had minimal changes?

You can't use a massively changing game state (economy) and a even smaller player base of the combined regions to etsablish a post-release trend.

That's like me trying to establish modern day insulation as a carcinogen by using asbestos-based insulation statistics. Your 8 months is more like 1 month if you detract from the whole all regions combined while you're factoring statistic for a single region.

This is why it's been pointed out that you need to keep more factor in mind. Because right now you're attempting statistical math without using the proper variables. Which of course leads to skewed results.

That's the last logical post you get from me, from here on out whenever you post something stupid, since it's been explained to you I'll be picturing in my head that you look like Keanu Reeves and you're just yelling EXCELLENT! at your monitor. Because that's the quality of this tripe you're spewing.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum