Thor and Battlecruiser should strike fear.

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12/13/2015 09:20 AMPosted by TerranicII
Carriers don't "suck". They just take a very long time to build.


As sad as their build time is even battlecruisers are seen more at the pro level than carriers.
It's more than just the build time in my opinion but that's for another topic.

12/13/2015 01:35 PMPosted by HeroMystic
Personally, I like this, and find this necessary in a strategy game where stalemates happen from too strong of a defender's advantage.


I find it the opposite.
I find the lack of defenders advantage disturbing as you are literally punished for not harassing your opponent because harassment is almost always cost effective.

I much prefered BW defenders advantage whereby you could still lose to aggression, timings or crazy harassment build but the odds were on your side to compensate you for having the onus of scouting out said cheese/weird build. Furthermore with exception to reaver drops most harassment units required some critical investment before they became cost effective to use (eg. mutas, wraiths lurker drops etc).
I've never understood their hesitation on buffing the Battlecruiser.

Its tech requirement, cost, and ESPECIALLY build time will always keep it as a unit that is only usable in extremely late game situations.

But its combat ability just never makes it worth it to build right now. Zerg already has Vipers and Protoss already have Tempests and Void Rays which both hard counter the hell out of the Battlecruiser so why not play around with its combat stats to make it even worth building in the first place?

As is, it's just a dead unit that doesn't even see use in TvT anymore.
The problem isnt that a thor or a bc doesnt produce fear because they do. The problem is that it takes time to produce enough of them.

Zerg can produce immediately 5-6 ultras if he has the resources. But ive never seen a terran in lategame making 6-8 factories or starports. Terrans should start to make more production buildings in lategame. Protoss too.

EDIT: In bw players prepared for a transition by putting 4-6 starports or factories, by upgrading units they dont use. Thats something i miss in sc2. Except zerg (upgrades of other units) no other race does prepare for a transition.

EDIT2: Its not like they havent the resources. Once you have 2000-2000 overmins and are close to maxed you should take precautions for a transition. Instead they attack and lose all their army and are left without an option. Sometimes they havent even enough production to produce their upgraded units fast.
12/14/2015 03:50 AMPosted by todespolka
The problem isnt that a thor or a bc doesnt produce fear because they do. The problem is that it takes time to produce enough of them.

Zerg can produce immediately 5-6 ultras if he has the resources. But ive never seen a terran in lategame making 6-8 factories or starports. Terrans should start to make more production buildings in lategame. Protoss too.

EDIT: In bw players prepared for a transition by putting 4-6 starports or factories, by upgrading units they dont use. Thats something i miss in sc2. Except zerg (upgrades of other units) no other race does prepare for a transition.

EDIT2: Its not like they havent the resources. Once you have 2000-2000 overmins and are close to maxed you should take precautions for a transition. Instead they attack and lose all their army and are left without an option. Sometimes they havent even enough production to produce their upgraded units fast.

Problem is that factories and starports cost more than hatcheries to match the same production, especially if you use them to produce higher tech units and then you'll need even more of them.
12/14/2015 03:50 AMPosted by todespolka
The problem isnt that a thor or a bc doesnt produce fear because they do. The problem is that it takes time to produce enough of them.

Zerg can produce immediately 5-6 ultras if he has the resources. But ive never seen a terran in lategame making 6-8 factories or starports. Terrans should start to make more production buildings in lategame. Protoss too.

EDIT: In bw players prepared for a transition by putting 4-6 starports or factories, by upgrading units they dont use. Thats something i miss in sc2. Except zerg (upgrades of other units) no other race does prepare for a transition.

EDIT2: Its not like they havent the resources. Once you have 2000-2000 overmins and are close to maxed you should take precautions for a transition. Instead they attack and lose all their army and are left without an option. Sometimes they havent even enough production to produce their upgraded units fast.
No time isnt problem IMO. It's just the fact that they are bad. A bio player can choose to invest in battlecruisers but the problem is they are so terrible it's not worth it.

12/14/2015 03:11 AMPosted by Shaunus
12/13/2015 09:20 AMPosted by TerranicII
Carriers don't "suck". They just take a very long time to build.


As sad as their build time is even battlecruisers are seen more at the pro level than carriers.
It's more than just the build time in my opinion but that's for another topic.

12/13/2015 01:35 PMPosted by HeroMystic
Personally, I like this, and find this necessary in a strategy game where stalemates happen from too strong of a defender's advantage.


I find it the opposite.
I find the lack of defenders advantage disturbing as you are literally punished for not harassing your opponent because harassment is almost always cost effective.

I much prefered BW defenders advantage whereby you could still lose to aggression, timings or crazy harassment build but the odds were on your side to compensate you for having the onus of scouting out said cheese/weird build. Furthermore with exception to reaver drops most harassment units required some critical investment before they became cost effective to use (eg. mutas, wraiths lurker drops etc).
We have seen lots of carrier plays in LOTV before the nerf (which they are thinking of reverting) I don't recall seeing 1 Battlecruiser in LOTV.
They can be very cool with little changes - not making them OP but really cool to use.
Maybe I will post some pictures or a video later showing that. (when will have some free time)
after messing around with the battlecrusisers the other night the best thing that blizzard can do with the BC would be one of the following:

1: if we keep the dps and the attack delay then it should be able to fire while on the move.

2: Instead of Weapon refit unlocking yammoto cannon, it should increase the damage output of the BC'S attack and have behemoth reactor unlock both yammoto cannon and the starring energy.

3: Allow it to research Defensive Matrix (not assuming the raven gets this ability in a rework)[highly doubtful but never know]
12/13/2015 06:47 AMPosted by Maru
people complain about mmm all day but they don't realize why Terran can't add tier 3 and other stuff .

In HotS people complained about Colossi or all ins, but they didn't realize, why building Carrier or Mothership was like throwing away money. Ultralisks imba, huh? But Broodlords? Who here does fear Broodlords???
Personally, I think the reason Thors suck now is because they've essentially been replaced by the Liberator. Not sure how you'd make them scary units again. You'd probbaly have to add back high impact and give them some sort of survivability ability like WoL's Immortal Protocol - but significantly nerfed.

Battlecruisers on the other hadn are easy to make scary.

1) Give them 8 armor with full upgrades.
2) Make warp not cost energy and instead have a cooldown.
3) Remove random delay on the attacks.
12/14/2015 08:48 AMPosted by iLLuSia
In HotS people complained about Colossi or all ins, but they didn't realize, why building Carrier or Mothership was like throwing away money
But now we see carriers it just stopped with the nerf (which they are planning to revert) Mothership can be argued as its a hero unit and some doubt that is it even needed. Mothership sees more usages than a battlecruiser in hots and lotv. So what does your argument have to do with terrans having !@#$ tier 3?

12/14/2015 10:10 AMPosted by DankTemplar
Personally, I think the reason Thors suck now is because they've essentially been replaced by the Liberator. Not sure how you'd make them scary units again. You'd probbaly have to add back high impact and give them some sort of survivability ability like WoL's Immortal Protocol - but significantly nerfed.

Battlecruisers on the other hadn are easy to make scary.

1) Give them 8 armor with full upgrades.
2) Make warp not cost energy and instead have a cooldown.
3) Remove random delay on the attacks.
I dont think its a good idea to give a thor who was designed to be a scary ground sieger some air attack. Blizzard said they would change the thor but guess what they didnt do anyhting. They are conisdering adding high impact payload back. Sadly many fools believed thor would be changed and the game would get good so they bought lotv.

I agree with the battlecruiser change you say, and maybe make them o 16 damage and half the seconds it takes to attack then i can see it working in wonders.
12/14/2015 11:06 AMPosted by Maru
They are conisdering adding high impact payload back.


I don't know if this is true. David Kim said the current AA guns would get buffed to do more base damage, so it'll do something like 8 + 4 vs. light instead of 6 + 6 vs. light, but he didn't mention adding HIP guns back (which I think is the better alternative).
12/14/2015 11:17 AMPosted by JorgeCis
12/14/2015 11:06 AMPosted by Maru
They are conisdering adding high impact payload back.


I don't know if this is true. David Kim said the current AA guns would get buffed to do more base damage, so it'll do something like 8 + 4 vs. light instead of 6 + 6 vs. light, but he didn't mention adding HIP guns back (which I think is the better alternative).
Ah i misread ty for clarifying. Well buffing thors air imo doesnt make any sense and still doesnt give me a reason to use thors.
12/14/2015 11:06 AMPosted by Maru
12/14/2015 08:48 AMPosted by iLLuSia
In HotS people complained about Colossi or all ins, but they didn't realize, why building Carrier or Mothership was like throwing away money
But now we see carriers it just stopped with the nerf (which they are planning to revert) Mothership can be argued as its a hero unit and some doubt that is it even needed. Mothership sees more usages than a battlecruiser in hots and lotv. So what does your argument have to do with terrans having !@#$ tier 3?

12/14/2015 10:10 AMPosted by DankTemplar
Personally, I think the reason Thors suck now is because they've essentially been replaced by the Liberator. Not sure how you'd make them scary units again. You'd probbaly have to add back high impact and give them some sort of survivability ability like WoL's Immortal Protocol - but significantly nerfed.

Battlecruisers on the other hadn are easy to make scary.

1) Give them 8 armor with full upgrades.
2) Make warp not cost energy and instead have a cooldown.
3) Remove random delay on the attacks.
I dont think its a good idea to give a thor who was designed to be a scary ground sieger some air attack. Blizzard said they would change the thor but guess what they didnt do anyhting. They are conisdering adding high impact payload back. Sadly many fools believed thor would be changed and the game would get good so they bought lotv.

I agree with the battlecruiser change you say, and maybe make them o 16 damage and half the seconds it takes to attack then i can see it working in wonders.


Problem with making the Thor a ground sieger again is that it'll overlap with even more units. Just make the damn thing a meat wall with medium range ground attack that's really, really good at mulching armored at a slow attack period while giving it back High Impact to help deal with Broodlords.

In combination it'll give terran a decent mech late game option, which is currently lacking without overlapping too much with other units.

I wouldn't buff Battlecruiser damage as well just because tactical retreats using warp+repair is pretty damn good. Battlecruiser being focused down? NP! Warp that one back, repar it and wait for warp to finish its CD before moving out. RInse, lather repeat.
12/14/2015 11:53 AMPosted by DankTemplar
<span class="truncated">...</span> But now we see carriers it just stopped with the nerf (which they are planning to revert) Mothership can be argued as its a hero unit and some doubt that is it even needed. Mothership sees more usages than a battlecruiser in hots and lotv. So what does your argument have to do with terrans having !@#$ tier 3?

<span class="truncated">...</span> I dont think its a good idea to give a thor who was designed to be a scary ground sieger some air attack. Blizzard said they would change the thor but guess what they didnt do anyhting. They are conisdering adding high impact payload back. Sadly many fools believed thor would be changed and the game would get good so they bought lotv.

I agree with the battlecruiser change you say, and maybe make them o 16 damage and half the seconds it takes to attack then i can see it working in wonders.


Problem with making the Thor a ground sieger again is that it'll overlap with even more units. Just make the damn thing a meat wall with medium range ground attack that's really, really good at mulching armored at a slow attack period while giving it back High Impact to help deal with Broodlords.

In combination it'll give terran a decent mech late game option, which is currently lacking without overlapping too much with other units.

I wouldn't buff Battlecruiser damage as well just because tactical retreats using warp+repair is pretty damn good. Battlecruiser being focused down? NP! Warp that one back, repar it and wait for warp to finish its CD before moving out. RInse, lather repeat.
I i didnt suggest buffing battlecruiser damage, notice i said make it do twice the damage but half its attack speed which doesnt make any difference. Also there would still be no reason to make thor, thor is a unit that doesnt have a role, which cannot be filled by better and cheaper options. I suggest removing this piece of crap and adding a new unit OR making heavy redesigns which blizzard proved they cant do cause they dont have an understanding of the game.
I believe that all the Terran players here are in the same page. The Thors should be tier 3 ground unit that should be fear of with its Longer Ground Ranges and a better splash damage on air, because Broolords with parasitic bombs just TREKT these units like, Terran players just wasted gazillion on gas and minerals. and for Battle cruisers, this unit should be really tanky atleast for air! we cant rely on Vikings as much Phoenixes will just out micro them... This is not a QQ this is just in reality that is happening. Just look every Terran players are still into MMM composition just Fckn think about it!
Making battlecruisers scary shouldn't involve giving them 8 armor.
That just makes their counters fair far worse (void rays and corruptors).
Not to mention that it removes any point at all to using phoenix/mutalisks against them (not that there was much point to begin with but at least they could trade somewhat ineffectively against very low numbers of bc's).

12/14/2015 10:13 PMPosted by IIJeRfJaEII
better splash damage on air

Do you really want more gimmicky instant army death type units?
Splash anti air is very strong against mutalisks already, I don't think you could give them much better splash without just breaking the unit.

As I said before the thor would be immensely better if it had some splash on its ground attacks and was a little smaller. As it stands it has excellent single target DPS but has about the same capability against large numbers of ground units as cyclones (cost for cost anyway). I think that the splash anti air should be moved from the thor (since the liberator basically just does a better job at that) and the thor instead get high single target anti air (possibly/probably anti armor damage).
This is not serious but I am going to try to make the Thor scary on the ground.

1) Air attack removed. Javelin missiles now target ground units instead. Missile cooldown reduced from 2 seconds to 1 second
2) Thor gains Weapon Swap, switches between using the AoE splash anti-light missiles and the heavy hitting Thor's Hammer
3) Thors get Ablative Armor upgrade, adds +2 armor
4)Thors gain Immortality Protocol that automatically revives the Thor when it is defeated, with 60 sec cooldown
5) Thor size shrunk down and base movement speed increased to 3.15

Granted making it scary does involve making it OP.

The real things it needs it making it smaller, removing the massive attack delay between swapping between a ground and air target* which will make it more microable and increase its base speed so that it can keep up with other ground units that are not stimmed marines.

*If it shot a ground target both weapons go on cooldown, so it has to wait 2 seconds before it can fire at an air target. Other units with similar Air/Ground weapon split have the same issue, but due to their refire rate this is nowhere near as noticable.
The solution for BC is easy: revert the attack to BW state: one attack 30 flat damage against everything, +3 per upgrade. Problem solved. Oh and remove the silly teleport, it does not belong to battlecruisers.

Thors need to be made smaller, faster, reduced damage against ground, remove aoe against air, reduce supply cost to 3, reduce resource costs by 50%.

Now all we gotta do is fix the siege tank and suddenly, terran will have something to actually transition to from bio.
I think Battlecruisers and Thors should be more versatile. Give Thors the stun cannon back, and 6-8 armor to survive littleguy attacks, but their weaponry means they'd need other units to kill the little guys for them - Essentially, they'd wade into battle, countering enemy massive units while holding against the little guys... possibly giving their guns light splash damage, so that they can put pressure on mass little guys, but specialize in taking out the big guys, in both ground and air (Given the splash AA with a bonus against armored). Their counter, of course, is medium units (Hydras (Or is it Ravagers now?), Siege Tanks, Immortals)

Battlecruisers could probably afford to be similarly 'two-pronged' - Give them alternate fire modes - big cannon for dealing with single hard targets OR little cannons for dealing with light swarms, but not both at the same time. Or give them the single medium-gun like in the previous Starcraft, with the short-range littlelazors being an energy-draining autocastable spell, sort of like the Oracle's. But it really should have both, littlelazors and big gun it can use with regularity, so that we don't go back to the battlecruiser silliness lately parodied by Carbot.
12/13/2015 07:08 AMPosted by Maru
12/13/2015 06:50 AMPosted by Democracy
ultralisks can't attack air and don't have ranged attack, and don't fly.
unless you make ultralisks fly and rave ranged attacks, nope.
Battlecruisers fly and have ranged attack, doesnt change the fact that they are crap.


Is this the real Maru?

Pretty good English skills and use of colloquialism for an 18 year old Korean...

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