Just finished LotV, horrible storytelling

Campaign Discussion
I don't know who wrote SC2, but I have a feeling they're the same people that botched D3's story. And Warcraft's...

Is it any coincidence that Blizzard's writing went down the crapper after all of the Blizzard North guys took off? Were they the lynchpin that filtered out some of Metzen's more harebrained ideas or something?
02/13/2016 10:10 PMPosted by Redrum
Is it any coincidence that Blizzard's writing went down the crapper after all of the Blizzard North guys took off? Were they the lynchpin that filtered out some of Metzen's more harebrained ideas or something?


Along those lines
Is it any coincidence that Blizzard's writing went down the crapper after all of the Blizzard North guys took off? Were they the lynchpin that filtered out some of Metzen's more harebrained ideas or something?


Blizzard North had nothing to do with anything but Diablo 1/2.

Blizzard's storytelling on SC/WC went downhill because it got popular and bigger, and because Metzen stopped writing the stories himself. Like the premise Metzen had for WoL was actually really awesome -- but he didn't write the game himself so it was changed.
02/26/2016 03:15 PMPosted by Aldrius


Blizzard's storytelling on SC/WC went downhill because it got popular and bigger, and because Metzen stopped writing the stories himself. Like the premise Metzen had for WoL was actually really awesome -- but he didn't write the game himself so it was changed.


Metzen wrote the overarching story and had big input on the way each individual expansion was written
Jesus, it's so bad


Please refrain from using the Lord's name in vain. Thank you. :)
02/13/2016 11:31 AMPosted by xandar


And another scene is super. You go in to secret temple and lol Kerrigan is there exactly same time and you say "hello how are you good day to you". And queen say " Hi Artanis can we walk together I am here to look at this wonderful architecture". And by the way Artanis is in the fleet that purify Mar Sara and Antiga Prime :-D


That was actually a ret-con too. In the original game, Artanis was a Praetor, like Fenix, and was in no way implied to be an Executor, much less a "Heirarch" over all the other Executors.
02/27/2016 03:22 PMPosted by Togetic
02/26/2016 03:15 PMPosted by Aldrius


Blizzard's storytelling on SC/WC went downhill because it got popular and bigger, and because Metzen stopped writing the stories himself. Like the premise Metzen had for WoL was actually really awesome -- but he didn't write the game himself so it was changed.


Metzen wrote the overarching story and had big input on the way each individual expansion was written


I could write something better over the weekend.
03/05/2016 01:15 PMPosted by Wade
I could write something better over the weekend.


Half the people here would say the same thing.
The story telling going all fantasy/WOW like made the lore portion of the entire series kind of disappointing, save WoL, because that still had some heavy leanings to SC1 in terms of how the story progressed. I wish that they had kept it in the vein of the original Starcraft and more on the sci-fi end, as others mentioned

I also hope we see another Starcraft and not 10 plus years down the road. I enjoyed playing SC2 and there are plenty of good things going for it that can be carried over but things could have definitely been better. I hope the next iteration can fix some of the issues, especially on the story telling side. I don't know if that is entirely possible since they've already gone down this prophecy and darkness/void path but we will see.

My main gripe with Blizzard now is that ever since their merger with Activision (Could it be a coincidence? Yeah, but still...), all their games in terms of overall quality have been lacking. Don't even get me started on D3 when it first launched, holy crap that was terrible in every facet until the console versions released, but even then there was no fixing the botched story writing. Probably one of the more disappointing game experiences I've had in 30 years.

They also prided themselves on taking long development cycles to make superior products and that just doesn't hold true anymore. There are plenty of developers out there, indie ones for example, that have less resources all the way around, and can make gaming experiences better in less development cycle times.
03/05/2016 01:42 PMPosted by Dyne
They also prided themselves on taking long development cycles to make superior products and that just doesn't hold true anymore. There are plenty of developers out there, indie ones for example, that have less resources all the way around, and can make gaming experiences better in less development cycle times.


This is what happens when the WoW team infested the SC universe.
I suppose so, it just sucks. One of the fondest gaming memories I've ever had was playing Starcraft and Brood War. The original SC is probably in the top 20 best games of all time, easily. It has been on those lists already.
03/05/2016 02:03 PMPosted by Dyne
I suppose so, it just sucks. One of the fondest gaming memories I've ever had was playing Starcraft and Brood War. The original SC is probably in the top 20 best games of all time, easily. It has been on those lists already.


I personally still liked the whole relationship matter with Raynor and Kerrigan which was technically still stressed in the epilogue, but SC2 did it too much.

If we're only talking about a single battle, then by all means that'd be ok. But the SC universe isn't ALL about them
03/05/2016 01:42 PMPosted by Dyne

They also prided themselves on taking long development cycles to make superior products and that just doesn't hold true anymore. There are plenty of developers out there, indie ones for example, that have less resources all the way around, and can make gaming experiences better in less development cycle times.


If you have a good idea and a good team, it should take 6 months to a year to make a great game. Not 5 years.

This isn't the SNES era any more, but still, it should never take 2, 5, or 10 years to make a video game, particularly since Blizzard hasn't coded a game engine from scratch in decades.

Square-Enix put out 3 games in the top 20 all-time within a 4 year period, two of which are still top 3. And it was mostly the same team on all three games. In one case only 2 million copies of the game were ever made, and it still makes top 3 on multiple all-time best lists, and they made about 10 other games during the same time period while working on those, most of which had unique soundtracks composed by Nobuo Uematsu.

The reason Chrono Trigger and FF7 beat out FF6 is because:

1) Original FF6 (FF3 U.S.) shipped with two major bugs in it. Most people didn't understand them anyway, but it didn't ruin the game.
2) The story in FF6 was too open compared to Chrono Trigger and FF7.
3) FF7 was the first 3-D JRPG and was on a next-generation system, But it is in many ways a re-make of FF6.
4) The graphics on FF6 were too dated at the time it was released, although they stretched a few scenes to the limit of what was known at the time.
5) A lot of people don't like turn-based RPGs, and even Square has moved away from them, but for the people who did like them in their glory days, these three games always come to mind as "among the best games ever made".

Now, I'm not saying Blizzard should make a turn-based RPG, though that might be really cool if it was all-new characters, nor am I saying they should make a turn-based strategy game, though that might also be really cool, however, there are GAME MECHANICS and ideas in some of these older games which could be adapted to the next Blizzard RPG or the next Blizzard RTS to make them better. There are lessons to be learned from studying the all-time greats.

Why did Starcraft sell 4 times as many copies as Chrono Trigger, but lags like 40 places behind it in the top 100? World of Warcraft is ranked 39, and Starcraft is ranked 45. Starcraft 2 is not in the top 100.

Because there's something about the game which absolutely captured the imagination, fascinated, and left a permanent, positive mark on the player's experience and life.

You know, a turn based RPG or a turn-based Strategy game might not be a bad idea for Blizzard.

Right now it looks like they are moving in the direction of Mobas and weird FPS genre. The FPS, Overwatch, might actually interest me, but I already have concerns, because of the description on PCGamer. Nevertheless, when I was 21, I was nigh-invincible at a similar FPS, so it might be okay after all.

What about the mechanics of Super-Metroid?

The Speed Booster, The Shine Spark, the Crystal Flash, X-Factor
The Grapple Beam.

Blizzard was going to put a Grapple unit in LotV, the Herc, and they decided not to do it. WTF.

This was one of the most amazing items in the history of video games

It's like they've run out of ideas for new mechanics, and they don't even use the good old mechanics.

While glancing over Heroes of the Storm, I laughed at the roster, because I know about half the characters have mass slow and mass stun abilities. Nothing else to work with, eh blizzard?
03/05/2016 02:03 PMPosted by Dyne
I suppose so, it just sucks. One of the fondest gaming memories I've ever had was playing Starcraft and Brood War. The original SC is probably in the top 20 best games of all time, easily. It has been on those lists already.


It's actually not in anyone's top 20 list, except maybe Starcraft fanboys.

It doesn't even make some top 100 lists, as I pointed out yesterday.
starcraft 1's success can almost entirely be attributed to the multiplayer, not the story.
Let me give you an example on Heroes of the Storm:

Fail:

One hero per player, plus some henchmen and spells/summons.

The MOBA archetype assumes the player has just one hero is the best format. IT actually produces limitations in the way the new abilities you create can interact, and of course it produces 50 characters where 25 of them rely heavily on slow and stun effects, boring.

Historically Successful RPG games have 3 or 4 characters per player.

What they should have done is have you pick 3 characters, and have primary abilities as well as 2 and 3 character combination abilities, like the CT Double Tech and Triple Tech.

Combination techs trade one type of tempo for another type of tempo, by giving effects which are situationaly slightly better.

Examples from Chrono Trigger:
Double Techs:
Aura Whirl:
Heal 3 targets using two characters' turns in combination for the MP price of 3 auras, but in the timing of one round, instead of 3 rounds. Of course the drawback is Crono doesn't get to attack that round.

Nevertheless, this is one of the best abilities in the game, and heavily used in the perfect low level run, because the total number of character turns spent healing is reduced, and some of the fights would probably not be possible without it in the perfect low level run.

Volt Bite:
Attack evades some resistance to physical or lightning, and does a lot of damage in a single packet, evading counter-attack triggers, etc.

Boogie:
Casts Stop on all robotic enemies in the area.

Triple Tech:
Delta Force/Storm:
Spell does Shadow damage from three characters who don't know any Shadow spells. Useful for evading some immunes in the game.

Life Line:
You cannot win the perfect low level without this. Puts a pre-buff on characters to automatically resurrect them if they die.

So how this works is you sacrifice extra character turns to get an effect which is situationally better than what any characters could do on their own. The Sum is greater than the Parts so to speak.

I suggested putting something like this in the game for Starcraft, because it would actually introduce a "real skill" for players to work on, if you truly want to put more emphasis on micro and tactics.

For example, the Medivac and the Raven might have a combination spell, or the Ghost and the Raven might have a combination.

Dark Templar and High Templar might have a combination spell, or High Templar and Oracle, Oracle and Sentry, etc.

Same for some Zerg casters.

How this would work, is if you have at least one unit of each type on your control group, then when you select one of them via Tab, an extra button appears for the new ability.

Example might be:
Combo: Oracle, Sentry
"Metacognition"; Hallucinations in the area 10 radius do 50% real damage for the duration of 10 seconds.

Combo: Dark Templar, High Templar
"Storm Avatar": The Dark Templar in the group becomes invincible for X seconds and deals 20 splash damage per attack for the duration.

I think abilities like this could add large variety to the way players would design their builds, and increase the overall experience of Starcraft (and Heroes of the Storm).
03/06/2016 09:16 AMPosted by Brathearon
starcraft 1's success can almost entirely be attributed to the multiplayer, not the story.


It was mostly carried by custom maps. Most players didn't play Ladder even back then. They played money maps, third party campaign mods, and RPG maps.

In fact, several fight scenes in Heart of the Swarm used mechanics invented by the 3rd party map makers via triggers in SC: BW.

Back then, because you could only mod so many buttons, and because it was hard to actually get people to play mods that were for more than one player, the way to add "spells" to hero units was to use civilians and beacons on the edges of the map for each player. You used triggers to simulate boss enemies casting spells, and you'd quickly place something like an archon or a vulture mine on the map and kill it instantly, faster than the player could see, to create special effects.

The fight with the Archangel and the primal pack leaders is extremely similar to some of the boss fights in some of the 2000/2001 era Campaign Creations and Nexus Creations campaign mods.

The only real difference is the editor in both warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2 allows custom special effects, so blizzard can do "cool" things like paint the red circles and stuff to let the player try to dodge...but this was nothing new. I assure you we map makers were doing it in Broodwar, before Warcraft 3 even released, much less Starcraft 2.

I "had" a Warcraft 3 project on an "Epic" scale map, which used triggers to recycle portions of the map to re-use for new parts of the story. I worked on it for months and months, and always seemed to be "10% complete" in my view. In testing people told me it was awesome and stuff, but I just couldn't deal with the amount of content I wanted to put into the game.

I had:
-Encrypted Password save system, which was player-name specific so they couldn't share it with other players.
-Full custom voting menu.
-Menu for teleportation when the nodes were found.
-Full custom units.
-Full custom abilities for 8 character classes up to level 50:
Warrior, Bard*, White Mage**, Monk*, Ranger, Thief, Black Mage**, something else in progress, i forget.

*Patterned after D&D character classes.
**Patterned after FF4 White Mage Rosa and Black Mage/Summoner Rydia.

-Equipment requiremets, so you can only wear what your class is supposed to wear.
-Bag of Holding and rotating inventory array.
-Bosses designed for each scale of character levels and number of players in the game.
-Full story with cutscenes, characters interacting, giving orders, orders not being followed, character reads a letter to himself, and so on. I used exclamation and question marks in dialogue sometimes which pop above a character's head to help portray the intended emotion.
-The final boss was intended to be "Serenity," the girl you meet at the beginning of the game, and she is a Doppleganger and self resurrecter. You would have to fight 3 copies of her: all three can attack and use offensive spells. One has healing spells and a single target resurrection spell, the other has mass resurrection. The fight is patterned after Lavos Core from Chrono Trigger, except it is in real time and my abilities were much different.
-Debug scripts to test the other scripts.

Unfortunately, at the time I was working on this I had other issues in my life, and I also eventually had the computer this was on crashed on me, and I stupidly didn't have a back-up. At the time I didn't have a flash drive.
03/06/2016 09:18 AMPosted by Wade
Let me give you an example on Heroes of the Storm:

Fail:

One hero per player, plus some henchmen and spells/summons.

This ignores the hero that is three units in one, the one that's two players to one hero and the hero/pet hero, but alright

03/06/2016 09:18 AMPosted by Wade

The MOBA archetype assumes the player has just one hero is the best format. IT actually produces limitations in the way the new abilities you create can interact, and of course it produces 50 characters where 25 of them rely heavily on slow and stun effects, boring.

That's... an interesting point, if not very strange. The same could be said for literally any genre, "FPS games would be better if you could control multiple characters at once, and having it only be one character really limits gameplay possibilities"

03/06/2016 09:18 AMPosted by Wade
Historically Successful RPG games have 3 or 4 characters per player.

[/quote]
"Apples are boring because they can only come in a few shades of color, which really limits the experience of eating one. I think shoes are easy to wear and make my life a lot easier, historically shoes have been very successful and as such i think that apples should be leathery and stomped on. It would greatly expand my experience"

Also, that's not even anywhere close to a universal statement
03/06/2016 07:14 AMPosted by Wade
03/05/2016 02:03 PMPosted by Dyne
I suppose so, it just sucks. One of the fondest gaming memories I've ever had was playing Starcraft and Brood War. The original SC is probably in the top 20 best games of all time, easily. It has been on those lists already.


It's actually not in anyone's top 20 list, except maybe Starcraft fanboys.

It doesn't even make some top 100 lists, as I pointed out yesterday.


I should have stated that I meant in the RTS genre, figured that was obvious when I was typing it. But I can see why it might not be obvious.

However, if we expanded out in terms of every genre period, it would still definitely hit many top 50 or 100 lists depending on who you talked to. I'd say it is one of the most influential games just in the e-sport sense alone. That carries some merit to place it in at least the top 50 personally, and I'm not even talking about the phenomenal game play and story for its time. I know of a few publications like IGN and Time that have placed the game very highly and others as well in the past. Obviously these lists can change with new games being released but in the PC world alone, it has a lot of respect. It won't make everyone's list but objectively speaking, the game had a lot going for it and set some standards.

And no, I'm not a "fanboy", however I am a fan of the game because it was really well made. If that makes me a fanboy, I guess there's a ton of us then. Haha.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum