Blizzard and e-sports: Good or Bad?

General Discussion
05/27/2016 09:20 PMPosted by Smurf
The harder you push for a game to be fun to " WATCH" , the more you FAIL.

*Upvotes*

05/27/2016 09:20 PMPosted by Smurf
heroes of the storm, RIP that fail)..

*Unvotes*
05/27/2016 09:20 PMPosted by Smurf
The harder you push for a game to be fun to " WATCH" , the more you FAIL.

It's just the wrong approach. I think Activision forced this, because they saw the Dollar in it. Also the old dev teams all left to the last man, didn't they? D3 and SC2 at least. The last BW designer left when WoL was 66% done. I wonder why!
Sc2 has gotten so many frustrating/overpowered units through the expansions, all catered to "fun to watch" but fails horribly at fun to play. It feels like the game is balanced at overpowered unit vs overpowered unit and it balances out somehow rather than all balanced units fighting eachother.

The game is definitely not casual player friendly, which makes them quit, which lowers your viewers for esports events.

Like someone said, if you balance the game for top pros ti deosnt mean itll be a great game for the regular players. Take Adepts for exemple: it took ages to nerf them because Blizzard was "observing the meta". Adepts were a really easy and simple unit to use to a massively devastating effect and it was really hard to counter them (even pros struggled), yet they didnt think they needed to change it. Result? Pros were struggling but surving badly, giving 50x as much effort to counter them as it takes to do the harass, and regular/casual players were getting slaughtered as they couldn'T give that 50x more effort, thus getting frustrated.
05/28/2016 03:47 PMPosted by Playa
05/28/2016 03:41 PMPosted by JudgeP
Game is only fun to watch -----> no casual wants to play it -------> no casuals -------> no viewer --------> no money --------> no pro scene ---------> ........

and now here we are^^

2k viewers on twitch and max 10k viewer when Korean Pro games get streamed.

its time to change


People used to watch due to non Korean players being perceived as superstars or great personalities. Superstars don't make minimum wage, though. In 2013, after choosing to make it impossible for any non Koreans to place in a tournament, all of the sponsors called Blizzard idiots and went elsewhere.

People are no longer compelled to watch or try to emulate people getting paid "pennies." This all stems from what happens when ignorant people get too greedy and don't recognize the stupidity of their actions. The balance team is still intact... so they probably still think they made good decisions and every genre but RTS is "in" right now. It had nothing to do with them. Just the whimsical nature of people.

I don't think it was that but more Blizzard making bad decisions in balancing. The game is too hard to pick up for casual players and if you don't get people to want to play the game then why would they watch it. I can tell you right that on Twitch, I only watch the games that I play. I'm assuming a lot of people are like that as well.

I also think the balance team is to blame as well with their focus on harassment as well. Harrassment can make for exciting watching but when you make the game nothing but that, then it gets boring fast.
e sports ruined SC2
esports didn't ruin SC2, it was it's developers that ruined it. They are the root cause of the problem, starting with Dustin Browder. Old command and conquer designer who's game never made it into the esport scene in Korea and couldn't match SC/BW in terms of fun, quality and design. Giving him the chance to design this game, specially around esports was a bad idea, his previous projects never received the amount of praise SC/BW got and should have been enough to not give him the opportunity.

His design theories and team were the downfall and why you don't see that many viewers or players interested in his games, you can include command and conquer there also. He was given 2 chances with SC2 and heroes of the storm, look where both these games stand in popularity. Horrible design decisions on both games, broken ladders and matchmakers, unfun playing atmosphere with tons of gimmicks and coin flips, can't forget terrible terrible damage and 1 supply roaches back in the day, just like his previous designs in command and conquer, terrible terrible.
05/31/2016 01:06 PMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
So let me get this right: you are claiming that Blizzard has made billions from selling "pizzas with dead mice in them"?

This is exactly why these forums should be ignored. The average IQ on these forums is well into the negatives, and it is this -their lack of intelligence- that is the source of their dissatisfaction, not the game.

Complying with your demands for game design would be like making Larry the cable guy the next president. Thankfully, Blizzard isn't that stupid and Starcraft 2 gets to live another day.

i didn't agure about how blizzard making money. i am just telling you your argument is invalid. you don't have to be super rich, to judge blizzard. you are comsumer, you have right to complain.
since you didn't successful defending your oppinion, it's void. stop yelling people.
return to the discussion. is blizzard good at developing sc2 recently? i think there are some unit that broken, ultra, too strong. disruptor, too much luck in throwing it's ball. liberator, too strong vs tier 1, too weak vs ultra, which they supposed to be strong against. cyclone, only use, defend drop. adept, by far the less broken unit of lotv, i am ok with them.
as a dota 2 player. i think dota 2 is the standard of esport at the moment. in aspect of "balance", dota 2 are the same to sc2. every patch, there are 50~70% of heroes are significantly less picked. in aspect of "fun", current sc2 can not compare to dota 2. but i still accept it and play, hoping someday they would do something.
05/28/2016 03:20 PMPosted by BurgerKing
Dude you do not know the history of twitch and SC2

when SC2 WoL was released this was the most poluar game on twitch its was in the number 1 spot.
It is one of the reasons if not the only reason twitch grew to where it is now.

I think the difficulty of sc2 is why it has declined.

But I have to say they could have done so much more to advertise this game. Getting it on TV channels at times when kids will see it during the shows they like.

But they were regardless very successful in the beginning and for the following 3 years then it started to go down from there.

I speculate the widow mine had something to do with it as it was around the time this unit was being shown to single handily killd zerg armies without requiring anything from terran except to burrow them. I think we lost a lot of people during this time. But that can't be it alone it has more to do with supporting this game as far as advertisement goes getting these kids and people to see this game.

Thats all they need really is to see some of the best moments (clips from great games) to want to play since its still the best RTS out there.

ALSO IT WASN'T THE FUN TO WATCH ASPECT THAT WAS A MISTAKE THAT WAS IN FACT SUCCESSFUL. THINGS LIKE WIDOW MINES 1 SHOTTING AND WINNING GAMES DID. ALSO MASS SH WITH NO GOOD COUNTER DID DAMAGE AS WELL. FINALLY POSSIBLY BUT NOT CERTAIN THE MANY WAYS TO KILL WORKERS (WORKER HARASSMENT) MIGHT HAVE HAD SOME NEGATIVE EFFECTS AS WELL. A FEW OPTIONS IS GOOD BUT EVERYTHING SHOULD NOT REVOLVE AROUND WORKER HARASSMENT.


Twitch.tv was literally created for SC2 and based off of the owner's love for SC2.

As for SC2, there's only one reason why it has declined, and that's because of lack of patches, and for long stretches of time there's no patches where there are really idiotic things in the game that aren't fun to play or play against, such as swarmhosts, mass ravens, mass adepts, broodlord infestor, etc.

If blizzard would take risks and patch SC2 often like the OP says, and spice up the metagame REGARDLESS of what pros think, then SC2 would be #1 on twitch again in no time, and tourneys would probably have 50-100k viewers again.

It really is all on blizzard at this point. Overwatch as you mentioned, and a few others probably mentioned - it is succeeding as a game not just because it's new but because it's ridiculously fun to play.

And if the gameplay of a game is fun to play, the game will naturally become competitive and naturally an e-sport without any forcing of the issue.

SC2 right now has too many infuriating things that aren't being patched, and balance is not good atm regardless of winrates or pro games.

Invincible nydus worms spawning in your base even though you can see it is not fun to play against, including for myself and other grandmaster / pro players.

8 armor ultras hitting the map and invalidating 200/200 bio Terran is not fun.

Mech being utterly useless/not viable in LOTV is depressing and frustrating.

Protoss right now isn't even a race in SC2 - it's literally just massing adepts and abusing pylon cannon to triple nexus every game allowing the massing of even more adepts + mass immortals.

Terran has the reaper grenade which adds nothing to the gameplay/strategy of SC2 and only creates build order wins/losses in TvT and TvZ/ZvT.

Ravagers/Tankivacs are both equally terrible for the game. Tankivacs make TvT extremely bad to play, and from my time off-racing a lot as Z - they're incredibly annoying to play against from the Zerg perspective as well.

Ravagers literally only exist in the game to counter tankivacs and add nothing to SC2, and are too powerful as a massable unit that makes a lot of games just pure mass roach/ravager.

If they addressed a lot of these things, i think LOTV would flourish.
06/10/2016 12:35 AMPosted by avilo
05/28/2016 03:20 PMPosted by BurgerKing
Dude you do not know the history of twitch and SC2

when SC2 WoL was released this was the most poluar game on twitch its was in the number 1 spot.
It is one of the reasons if not the only reason twitch grew to where it is now.

I think the difficulty of sc2 is why it has declined.

But I have to say they could have done so much more to advertise this game. Getting it on TV channels at times when kids will see it during the shows they like.

But they were regardless very successful in the beginning and for the following 3 years then it started to go down from there.

I speculate the widow mine had something to do with it as it was around the time this unit was being shown to single handily killd zerg armies without requiring anything from terran except to burrow them. I think we lost a lot of people during this time. But that can't be it alone it has more to do with supporting this game as far as advertisement goes getting these kids and people to see this game.

Thats all they need really is to see some of the best moments (clips from great games) to want to play since its still the best RTS out there.

ALSO IT WASN'T THE FUN TO WATCH ASPECT THAT WAS A MISTAKE THAT WAS IN FACT SUCCESSFUL. THINGS LIKE WIDOW MINES 1 SHOTTING AND WINNING GAMES DID. ALSO MASS SH WITH NO GOOD COUNTER DID DAMAGE AS WELL. FINALLY POSSIBLY BUT NOT CERTAIN THE MANY WAYS TO KILL WORKERS (WORKER HARASSMENT) MIGHT HAVE HAD SOME NEGATIVE EFFECTS AS WELL. A FEW OPTIONS IS GOOD BUT EVERYTHING SHOULD NOT REVOLVE AROUND WORKER HARASSMENT.


Twitch.tv was literally created for SC2 and based off of the owner's love for SC2.

As for SC2, there's only one reason why it has declined, and that's because of lack of patches, and for long stretches of time there's no patches where there are really idiotic things in the game that aren't fun to play or play against, such as swarmhosts, mass ravens, mass adepts, broodlord infestor, etc.

If blizzard would take risks and patch SC2 often like the OP says, and spice up the metagame REGARDLESS of what pros think, then SC2 would be #1 on twitch again in no time, and tourneys would probably have 50-100k viewers again.

It really is all on blizzard at this point. Overwatch as you mentioned, and a few others probably mentioned - it is succeeding as a game not just because it's new but because it's ridiculously fun to play.

And if the gameplay of a game is fun to play, the game will naturally become competitive and naturally an e-sport without any forcing of the issue.

SC2 right now has too many infuriating things that aren't being patched, and balance is not good atm regardless of winrates or pro games.

Invincible nydus worms spawning in your base even though you can see it is not fun to play against, including for myself and other grandmaster / pro players.

8 armor ultras hitting the map and invalidating 200/200 bio Terran is not fun.

Mech being utterly useless/not viable in LOTV is depressing and frustrating.

Protoss right now isn't even a race in SC2 - it's literally just massing adepts and abusing pylon cannon to triple nexus every game allowing the massing of even more adepts + mass immortals.

Terran has the reaper grenade which adds nothing to the gameplay/strategy of SC2 and only creates build order wins/losses in TvT and TvZ/ZvT.

Ravagers/Tankivacs are both equally terrible for the game. Tankivacs make TvT extremely bad to play, and from my time off-racing a lot as Z - they're incredibly annoying to play against from the Zerg perspective as well.

Ravagers literally only exist in the game to counter tankivacs and add nothing to SC2, and are too powerful as a massable unit that makes a lot of games just pure mass roach/ravager.

If they addressed a lot of these things, i think LOTV would flourish.

Daffy duck
Well the game has gotten harder which I'm not a fan of as a very casual player. For instance Roach / Ravager is harder then the old pure Roach compositions and the best composition against it on the Terran side is Marine + Medivac + Tanks which is much harder then the old MMM. That is some of my complaint against LoTV. The other is that Terran is fairly unsatisfying to play. Unit compositions aren't varied enough. It seems it actually less then previous versions of the game. They seem to be trying to rectify this a little with Liberator nerf and Cyclone buff but it might be a little to light on changes that takes way to long.

Basically Blizzrd needs to not care about the top balance and risk breaking the game for more radical changes that come much quicker.
Blizzard is a slave of top pro players. Just look at how subservient Blizzard is at keSPA and you will see. They will never take an action to spice the metagame a little bit because korean pros didn't like that.
05/27/2016 09:20 PMPosted by Smurf
I was looking to see where starcraft2 stood on twitch.

Damn pretty low, i was getting sad seeing it behind so many games...Pretty much all genres more popular now, fighting, many of them, shooters,mobas...just everything.

I kept scrolling down...then i saw.... heroes of the storm. 2000 viewers...

I dont understand, the games you pushed so hard for e-sports are failing harder than some console games designed for fun.

In fact, your only successful game on twitch (before overwatch, originally designed around being an MMO) is.. Hearthstone!! Designed for fun only! Didnt even have spectator features for longest time!

What does this tell you?

The harder you push for a game to be fun to " WATCH" , the more you FAIL.

Each and every game that you focused mainly on e-sports failed terribly at maintaining a player and viewer base.

The one game that was designed with BRAND NEW EMPLOYES ( Dont lie to yourselves, i remember when there was ads that you were recruiting ppl for a smaller mobile project; well those new employees you recruited sure did good, they are your best game!!)

Thats right, your small time employees surpassed in e-sports Starcraft2 AND heroes of the storm. Hearthstone succeed, because of one simple fact. It was designed solely on making the game FUN To play for everyone.

You know, kind of like Blizzard was king of games. Before all the online e-sports spectator thing, Before the streams, before twitch.

When the games were all about fun gameplay, blizzard was king. Blizzard always had sick engines, game felt amazing all the time. Gameplay was fun and rewarding, and a lot less frustrating than any similar game from other companies.

They just had this special touch, making a game fun to play was easy for them. THey made a game, you knew it was gonna be king of its genre.

It all went downhill when they stopped doing what they did good, and tried to focus on e-sports first, fun gameplay second.( The proofs are there, hearthstone,sc2, heroes of the storm, overwatch).

So... What are you waiting for?

You know what areas you are weak in, make the necessary adjustments, use your strong points again. You keep making bad decisions at the e-sports level ( DOTA was first one, cant believe you let that go instead of cashing in)

There is still hope for starcraft2 ( Not for heroes of the storm, RIP that fail)..

All we need is one HUGE patch. Screw balance for a few months, pros will adapt, they will be happy anyways, more players= more viewers= more money. Who cares, they play 12 hours a day, takes like 2 weeks and they will be fine...

This big patch, it will weaken all that is too strong. It will empower all that is too weak ( that includes defender advantage in the first 10minutes, and worker harass, not just units).

Really its not complicated, in a game where both player are well matched of same skill level, no1 should die to mass adept or ling bane all in or liberators behind mineral line. The game should almost always get to late game on close to even terms, with both players standing a very solid chance at winning the game.

There should be multiple army choices you can opt for that wont completely get destroyed by mass immortals or mass ultras.

Bring back some of the strategic thinking and planning. Push away some of the speedy clicky multitask super worker kill speedy harass unit. Stop its not working, cant you see?

Cant you see this direction is NOT working? Are you really that blind?

I mean you proved plenty of times in the last 5 years that you do not understand what makes a game a successful twitch/e-sports game.


100% agree.

Blizzard can reinvigorate SC2 by focusing on the most important thing that you mentioned:

the GAMEPLAY.

Make it fun to play, and people will come back in droves, over time.

SC2 can definitely make a comeback over the next few years.

Funny enough that you made this thread, i made a video describing the exact sentiment you did in this OP - about blizzard needing to focus on making the gameplay better.

You are absolutely right that the Overwatch dev teams captured that blizzard fun factor and that is why the game is good. SC2 needs that love too now from it's dev team. Make the game fun again, and remove/re-do a lot of the infuriating gameplay aspects.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum