COMMUNITY FEEDBACK UPDATE 7/29

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Our stance on this definitely used to lean towards almost never patching the game back in wings


Wasnt it back in Wings you patched the Terran 1-1-1 build in TvP really really fast? Like lightning fast? Maybe I just remember incorrectly.

I as a Diamond Terran (EU) feels that Ultralisk is incredible unfair. Its one of the most powerful units in the game atm (if not the most powerful) and it takes very little effort to control.

I have seen players like f.e Bunny (Danish one) missmicroing his Ghosts. If some Terran Pro's think this is hard, imagine how it feels for the avarage Joe! Im at a point where Im about to quit the game simply because of the Ultralisk. Immature and childish you say? Well its simply not any fun to play TvZ lategame anymore.

You see the Zerg army of Banelings, Zerglings, Corrupters and Ultralisks coming towards your own very very fragile army that will die in secconds if you dont pull of some seriously impressive Ghost/Splitting/Kiting micro!
Guess what...most Terrans dont have that micro! And guess what happens to a Bio/Ghost army when missmicroed vs such a Zerg army...thats right, it ceases to exist! The Terran army doesnt get easier to control considering the fact of interruptable Snipes!

This is an incredible disheartening feeling! Becuase you know, at that very seccond, that the micro the Zerg player had to do isn't anywhere nearly as hard! It just isn't!

I, a Terran Diamond player from Sweden is a part of this games existence! So is every single other SC2 player! I have played this game since release! Its my first rts game! Im 45 years old and I play ladder and sometimes with my son who is also a big SC2 fan.

I watch events, I watch streams, I watch dailys (recently PiGs dailys), Ive seen every daily Day9 ever made. I read reddit. I read Terran craft etc etc.

SC2 has been in my life since its release and now, for the first time, im actually considering quitting. Because of Ultralisk. Im aware it sounds silly but the fact is that I will never reach a level of play where I can handle Ultralisks properly. It's just to far out of my reach.

Ultralisks is the only personal complaint I have in the game. Simply because I keep getting stomped by them. Its not fun. Its incredible frustrating and it is simply just not fair!

Also more and more often, due to the Ultralisks, I see many Terrans trying to respond to Ultras by cutting the map in half, bunkering down, with Planetarys, Missile Turrets, Liberators, Tanks and Widowmines. This, to me, is very boring to both play (I always avoid this option because I think its so stupid) and watch because the action is mostly limited to one spot where they are trying to trade as cost efficient as possible. The game, at this point, becomes a little of a stalemate. Not fun. Not fun at all.

Dont forget your grassroots. It is because of us the game continues forward. We are the "engine" that make the game thrive. If not for us the game would cease to exist.

With that in mind, maybe you could think about us grassroot players as well when doing changes? Dont ask to much of the players. To assume that lower level Terrans (in this case) are able to micro Ghost/Liberators/Bio as the only answer to Ultralisks is just that, asking to much of the players! Its just out of proportion.
07/29/2016 02:24 PMPosted by Ibstronk
Our stance on this definitely used to lean towards almost never patching the game back in wings


Wasnt it back in Wings you patched the Terran 1-1-1 build in TvP really really fast? Like lightning fast? Maybe I just remember incorrectly.

I as a Diamond Terran (EU) feels that Ultralisk is incredible unfair. Its one of the most powerful units in the game atm (if not the most powerful) and it takes very little effort to control.

I have seen players like f.e Bunny (Danish one) missmicroing his Ghosts. If some Terran Pro's think this is hard, imagine how it feels for the avarage Joe! Im at a point where Im about to quit the game simply because of the Ultralisk. Immature and childish you say? Well its simply not any fun to play TvZ lategame anymore.

You see the Zerg army of Banelings, Zerglings, Corrupters and Ultralisks coming towards your own very very fragile army that will die in secconds if you dont pull of some seriously impressive Ghost/Splitting/Kiting micro!
Guess what...most Terrans dont have that micro! And guess what happens to a Bio/Ghost army when missmicroed vs such a Zerg army...thats right, it ceases to exist! The Terran army doesnt get easier to control considering the fact of interruptable Snipes!

This is an incredible disheartening feeling! Becuase you know, at that very seccond, that the micro the Zerg player had to do isn't anywhere nearly as hard! It just isn't! Anyone with a brain and some basic knowledge of the game knows this is true! (even though some Zergs never would admit it).

I, a Terran Diamond player from Sweden is a part of this games existence! So is every single other SC2 player! I have played this game since release! Its my first rts game! Im 45 years old and I play ladder and sometimes with my son who is also a big SC2 fan.

I watch events, I watch streams, I watch dailys (recently PiGs dailys), Ive seen every daily Day9 ever made. I read reddit. I read Terran craft etc etc.

SC2 has been in my life since its release and now, for the first time, im actually considering quitting. Because of Ultralisk. Im aware it sounds silly but the fact is that I will never reach a level of play where I can handle Ultralisks properly. It's just to far out of my reach.

Ultralisks is the only personal complaint I have in the game. Simply because I keep getting stomped by them. Its not fun. Its incredible frustrating and it is simply just not fair!

Also more and more often, due to the Ultralisks, I see many Terrans trying to respond to Ultras by cutting the map in half, bunkering down, with Planetarys, Missile Turrets, Liberators, Tanks and Widowmines. This, to me, is very boring to both play (I always avoid this option because I think its so stupid) and watch because the action is mostly limited to one spot where they are trying to trade as cost efficient as possible. The game, at this point, becomes a little of a stalemate. Not fun. Not fun at all.


I feel with you, bro.

Specially since the Queen Buff it's even worse. Before you've had to mess around with some sick roach/ravager pushes, but you knew, if you hold it, you will probably be ahead. Now it's like there are Banelings overall and you wait for the Ultralisks. The biggest problem is on particular maps like Apethoesis where you can't cut the map in half effectivly. I have no chance to micro my army (Ghost snipes, Splits, Liberator siege, etc) and get rid of rundbys.

Assumed that you feel, TvZ is balanced on Pro Niveau there could be the way to think seriously about bringing some useless/underused units back to give players a chance that have less then 300 APM. After all i'm also a fan of buffing the damage of the siege tank while not let him be a tankivac so it'll do serious damage to the Ultralisk.
Siege tank drops is just fundamentally wrong. Breaks classic TvT, still useless in TvP and not needed for TvZ. It looks exciting sometimes but playing with or against it is not fun.
07/29/2016 10:54 AMPosted by JorgeCis
So now the koreans are saying tankivac is an issue? Weren't they saying back in april that it's a necessary evil because of how strong ravagers are? Man, good luck with finding the solution.

Serious question: what do you consider patching quickly? Broodlord/infestor and swarm host stalemates were around for many months. I think the community thinks patching quick is faster than that.


For me it is almost looking that KeSPA is making joke of David Kim and the balance team all the time. First, they said tankivacs were needed. Now, they say it is too strong. LOL

Ultras are being imbalanced for over a year. Patching them would certainly not be a quick response. They are NOT FUN, they are OVERPOWERED. The same applies for brood lord infestor. They took FOREVER to patch it.

Sometimes, the lack of insight, perspective and direction of the balance team makes me feel hopeless.
07/29/2016 02:24 PMPosted by Ibstronk
Our stance on this definitely used to lean towards almost never patching the game back in wings


...

I as a Diamond Terran (EU) feels that Ultralisk is incredible unfair. Its one of the most powerful units in the game atm (if not the most powerful) and it takes very little effort to control.

I have seen players like f.e Bunny (Danish one) missmicroing his Ghosts. If some Terran Pro's think this is hard, imagine how it feels for the avarage Joe! Im at a point where Im about to quit the game simply because of the Ultralisk. Immature and childish you say? Well its simply not any fun to play TvZ lategame anymore.

You see the Zerg army of Banelings, Zerglings, Corrupters and Ultralisks coming towards your own very very fragile army that will die in secconds if you dont pull of some seriously impressive Ghost/Splitting/Kiting micro!
Guess what...most Terrans dont have that micro! And guess what happens to a Bio/Ghost army when missmicroed vs such a Zerg army...thats right, it ceases to exist! The Terran army doesnt get easier to control considering the fact of interruptable Snipes!

...


The sad part is I don't believe Blizzard really cares about the bottom 95% of players at all compared to the very best. The main focus seems to be the excitement of spectating high level play...

The Ultra changes in LoTV made it a truly scary, game ending, unit which was the goal all along. Under normal expectations the ultra should should be able to stomp all over a Terran army ...but then with some incredibly fast and impressive micro moves you realize Maru was able to survive the attack. The crowd goes crazy.

This is kind of imbalance and excitement Blizzard is looking for. They believe the game is so much more dynamic and exciting by giving Protoss the strong early game cheese, Terrans a strong mid game, and Zergs a dominating late game.

The problem is this kind of imbalance is not always fun for the players when they feel like they have to work so much harder than an opponent of another race. "Skill" of the player or difficultly of a race has nothing to do with balance in SC2 just so long as at the highest level there are players from each race that can trade evenly back and forth while creating games that are exciting to spectate. If your not one of the best of the best there will always be another player of similar MRR and balance isn't really and issue in Blizzard's mind.
07/29/2016 02:24 PMPosted by Ibstronk
Our stance on this definitely used to lean towards almost never patching the game back in wings


Wasnt it back in Wings you patched the Terran 1-1-1 build in TvP really really fast? Like lightning fast? Maybe I just remember incorrectly.

I as a Diamond Terran (EU) feels that Ultralisk is incredible unfair. Its one of the most powerful units in the game atm (if not the most powerful) and it takes very little effort to control.

I have seen players like f.e Bunny (Danish one) missmicroing his Ghosts. If some Terran Pro's think this is hard, imagine how it feels for the avarage Joe! Im at a point where Im about to quit the game simply because of the Ultralisk. Immature and childish you say? Well its simply not any fun to play TvZ lategame anymore.

You see the Zerg army of Banelings, Zerglings, Corrupters and Ultralisks coming towards your own very very fragile army that will die in secconds if you dont pull of some seriously impressive Ghost/Splitting/Kiting micro!
Guess what...most Terrans dont have that micro! And guess what happens to a Bio/Ghost army when missmicroed vs such a Zerg army...thats right, it ceases to exist! The Terran army doesnt get easier to control considering the fact of interruptable Snipes!

This is an incredible disheartening feeling! Becuase you know, at that very seccond, that the micro the Zerg player had to do isn't anywhere nearly as hard! It just isn't!

I, a Terran Diamond player from Sweden is a part of this games existence! So is every single other SC2 player! I have played this game since release! Its my first rts game! Im 45 years old and I play ladder and sometimes with my son who is also a big SC2 fan.

I watch events, I watch streams, I watch dailys (recently PiGs dailys), Ive seen every daily Day9 ever made. I read reddit. I read Terran craft etc etc.

SC2 has been in my life since its release and now, for the first time, im actually considering quitting. Because of Ultralisk. Im aware it sounds silly but the fact is that I will never reach a level of play where I can handle Ultralisks properly. It's just to far out of my reach.

Ultralisks is the only personal complaint I have in the game. Simply because I keep getting stomped by them. Its not fun. Its incredible frustrating and it is simply just not fair!

Also more and more often, due to the Ultralisks, I see many Terrans trying to respond to Ultras by cutting the map in half, bunkering down, with Planetarys, Missile Turrets, Liberators, Tanks and Widowmines. This, to me, is very boring to both play (I always avoid this option because I think its so stupid) and watch because the action is mostly limited to one spot where they are trying to trade as cost efficient as possible. The game, at this point, becomes a little of a stalemate. Not fun. Not fun at all.

Dont forget your grassroots. It is because of us the game continues forward. We are the "engine" that make the game thrive. If not for us the game would cease to exist.

With that in mind, maybe you could think about us grassroot players as well when doing changes? Dont ask to much of the players. To assume that lower level Terrans (in this case) are able to micro Ghost/Liberators/Bio as the only answer to Ultralisks is just that, asking to much of the players! Its just out of proportion.


absolutely on point. i couldn't say it any better.
If you guys haven't seen it check out this Extra Credits video on "Perfect Imbalance" that explains why Blizzard might actually be trying to create imbalances in StarCraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

The problem with StarCraft in it's current state is that the meta is somewhat stale. Some of the imbalances blizzard has tried to create have had the opposite effect they are looking for. Instead of making the game more diverse certain strong options have limited the amount of stuff you will see in the meta. I believe Ultras and a strong Zerg late game are an example of attempted "perfect imbalance" gone wrong. Instead of forcing players to find new ways of playing the game it has limited what the terran player can do and forces them to respond in a very particular way with most other strategies not working all for late game TvZ. This is why I don't think LoTV Ultras had the desired effect on the game but I understand why Blizzard would want to try such drastic changes in the first place.

I'm a proponent of trying changes that will expand the amount of viable options while playing game and I understand that this might result in imbalanced GSL statistics for a time. I don't want to achieve balance by limiting the meta to one or two specific strats per match-up. I want to see more changes tested and tried out.

...Maybe make BCs, thors, or hellbats more viable so they might actually be used in high level games. Maybe don't make adepts so strong that they render zealots obsolete. Maybe give zergs some type of mid game strategy in ZvT that is actually worth trying instead of rushing to late game as fast as possible every round.

And like we’ve discussed in the past couple weeks, we believe the current issues we are looking at such as the Ultralisk, Adept, Liberator, or Warp Prism are all issues within the first category. So while we definitely should work towards discussing or testing potential solutions in case they do turn out to be overpowered, these are definitely issues that we can take our time to evaluate while giving players the time they need to potentially figure out their own solutions.


You are completely off, how you figure solution vs 8 armor ultralisk, or parasitic bomb, or queen range, if only thing u can build is ghost, since liberators was nerfed to useless and ghosts snipe doesn't even counter it, it gets canceled and doesn't work.
You have no idea what you are doing, be man and acknowledge you are wrong.
Thanks for taking the time to update us on the inner working of the team at Blizzard, and the rational for doing things the way that you have up to this point.

Personally I think you make better decisions with well thought out calculated changes over time rather than rashly overreacting to a situation for easy fixes that ruin other aspect of the game. Putting the game in a less balanced state than it was in before. It's one of the things that I have admired about you for a while now. Keep up the good work.

As for your mentioning the problems they have been having with tank drops in siege mode in TvZ. I think the problems if their is one stems from a lot of the map layouts actually, and not necessarily design. But as always I trust you and the great team to look into and work on solving these issues fairly for all as you usually have.
Tankivac a problem ? No problem just buff Queen ground range.
Patch quickly.
we can test quickly in test map. and then roll back or whatever
games dont need patches in general for the sake of patch or meta change, i agree

however SC suffers from design and balance problems, hence why ppl want patches (actually fixes)

tankivac is definetly a problem, but it is not the biggest

-remove PO from the game, or make it cost mineral
-remove tankivac too, no need to flying tanks or atleast make it so it cant use afterburner (same goes for thor)
-bring back old HOTS macro mechanic values (chrono,inject,mule), or atleast make chrono manual casted with the nerfed value and keep the others as it is
-ghost is too easy to interrupt, cant snipe.fix it
-Adept phasing trhough units-nono, should be blocked by units
-reaper grenade shouldnt have knockback
-disruptor still awful unit to play with
-Ultralisk: gas cost increase instead of any other nerf

also a thing like APM and multitask requirement should be take into account when designing and balancing the races/units. game is unfair, the gap between races apm/multi task wise is big.
50 % winrate doesnt mean game is balanced when one player is forced to do more than the other player in order to win the game
07/29/2016 10:10 AMPosted by Dayvie
if something is seen as overpowered but makes for fun games


I'm a noob but play against protoss or zerg in late game is not fun...
07/29/2016 05:37 PMPosted by Velitey
Tankivac a problem ? No problem just buff Queen ground range.

poor troll
I agree that the speed of patching should depend on the specific scenario. However, I don't see anything wrong with trying out a higher number of balance test maps to help find the best possible solutions (which should legitimately be based upon rules for good game design and balance - balance coming after the design is solid - not rules for limiting changes themselves, if "what's best for the game" is actually the priority). Even if there are certain changes that would be a concern to pro tournament play, is anyone thinking about ways to allow pros to get acclimated to the changes before the changes are used in tournaments and normal ladder play, such as a special server or ladder (even if unranked) for practicing with them? Such ways of allowing competitive players (particularly pros) to "ease in" could allow for changes that could be better in terms of game design that would otherwise have trouble getting into the game due to concerns about tournament play.

I still advocate for more than a single balance test map at a time for handling multiple issues and/or multiple ways of dealing with an issue. To get more than one test map played, you could implement a "test map ladder" (even if unranked) or "test map tournaments." Perhaps there are other ways as well. I understand there's most likely a budget limit, but if we really want what's best for the game, shouldn't improvements on how to find the best solutions be considered?

From a more opinion-based standpoint, I really think the definition of what's "fun" needs to be re-evaluated. From all I can tell, the community finds actually army engagements more fun than harassment. Of course harassment has its place, but when it has such a huge impact on the game (particularly in T and P matchups) which causes so many players frustration, it seems pretty far-fetched to say that it is a big fun factor in the game. I think not just harassment, but other things that cause frustration should be evaluated on the basis of how much fun they are compared to how frustrating they are, as frustration tends to lessen fun, and fun tends to lessen frustration.

Concerning harassment potential vs engagement potential, harassment has a place, but it shouldn't overreach that place. As an example, if Terran Bio (which should have a decent level of harassment) could just have a little less harassment potential but be given a bit more combat potential, things like the Ultralisk might not even be problematic, and I believe this would make the game more fun.
And yet again as terran constantly fails to make it to finals and a ever decreasing tournament finishes.
Struggling to make a ro8

Terran gets nerfed again.

While in the ssl protoss is enjoying 6 out of 8 spots.
And by far holds the lead for 1st place finishes and finals representation.
07/29/2016 04:24 PMPosted by Accuracy
If you guys haven't seen it check out this Extra Credits video on "Perfect Imbalance" that explains why Blizzard might actually be trying to create imbalances in StarCraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
I've seen this. It does make some sense, but I find it a bit dishonest to the playerbase to use such a tactic. I simply don't see how a diverse range of equally powerful (but in different ways) options would be less stale than some options that are constantly or periodically being made slightly imbalanced.

The metagame is an issue, however, in that once certain playstyles start becoming popular (especially in pro play, as they're seen as example-setters), it often takes a lot to get people to try new things that might actually be competitive. However, I think there should be some serious thought into how to encourage use of a diversity of strategies without purposefully making imbalances. Things like daily (or even just weekly) challenges to use certain units or abilities X amount of times (credit to JaKaTaK), maybe official posts theorycrafting about the logic of potential strategies, and other things could be thought of I'm sure.
Just for another perspective, I loved HotS, but haven't bothered to buy LotV because the game looks broken, although I might reconsider it if it ever got to a good state. Whether it's broken in a slow way or broken in an action-packed way doesn't impact my decision.
Dk! Please, Buff Battlecruseir, Raven and nuff Tempest!

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