Community Feedback Update 8/19

General Discussion
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Major Balance Design Patch
First we would like to thank everyone for understanding that a lot of these proposals aren’t final yet. We were a bit worried that people will jump to extreme places and make immediate conclusions that aren’t necessarily correct, and was so awesome to see that this was largely NOT the case. For just over a year now, we’ve been working to integrate the community as part of our design process, and this response has given us even more confidence that this was definitely the right call. There have been drastic improvements to the flow of discussion and the thought processes of our community, and it is just really awesome to see.

We expect that working together on finalizing changes for this major patch with you guys will be a great experience!

With that said, because the changes have been out for such a short time, let’s focus a bit more on the high level goals and mindset we should approach this process with going forward. And we can definitely talk about the details of each change in the weeks to come.

Completely Changing the Fundamentals of the Game
We’ve seen some international feedback requesting that we make drastic, sweeping changes to how the game functions. Though this isn’t representative of the feedback we’re seeing most often, we wanted to make it clear that our goal is to keep StarCraft II similar to the game it is now, while making big improvements within it.

We strongly believe that the worst thing we can do to StarCraft II is make changes that turn it into a completely different type of game. Therefore, we’d like to ask everyone to keep focused on keeping the core fun of StarCraft II while making improvements within the game.

Competition of which race got how much more or less than another race
We wanted to point out that things like “giving an equal number of changes to each race” is not the goal of the proposed changes. In Legacy of the Void’s current state, It’s super clear that not every race is in an equal state, and it’s never been the case that each of the race gets an equal number of changes in any balance update we’ve done (expansions were an exception for their own reasons). With these design changes, we have a unique opportunity to put our entire focus on making sure that every matchup is in a balanced, fun, and diverse state. With this in mind, if a race already has more options in a matchup, it will not get as many ‘diversity’ buffs as the other race who only has one option. In short: the end result of these changes is what is important, not the changes themselves, and we hope everyone can get onboard with this way of thinking.

Matchmaking for the test map
As you may have heard, we intend to get a matchmaking service online for those interested in playing more with the upcoming changes. We wanted to give you guys a rough estimate of when this could go into the game; currently we’re aiming to release this a bit less than a month from now, but we’ll let you know once the release date is looking more solid.

Thanks again for being so patient and precise with your feedback! We’ll continue reading through your thoughts, and we look forward to continuing to work on this update together with you.
Highly Rated
Hi,

Please consider changes to the Mothership Core (mostly Photon Overcharge), and other buffs to Protoss defense to compensate.

This is easily one of the most - if not the most - requested major design change by (mostly) the casual community.

Thx ~
08/19/2016 12:02 PMPosted by Velitey
Hi,

Please consider changes to the Mothership Core (mostly Photon Overcharge), and other buffs to Protoss defense to compensate.

This is easily one of the most - if not the most - requested major design change by (mostly) the casual community.

Thx ~
Yes, this!

+1

Also, some of the pros are also in agreement with this. We thought the Adept was going to allow us less reliance on Photon Overcharge, but that hasn't been the case.

We, Protoss players as a whole, HATE relying on Photon Overcharge, and I think this is one of those things that needs a redesign/removal in favour of a more generic Adept that can hold its own all game long as a core unit. It currently cannot and is ONLY powerful in a timing in all non-mirror matchups and completely irrelevant in PvP.

08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie
Matchmaking for the test map
As you may have heard, we intend to get a matchmaking service online for those interested in playing more with the upcoming changes. We wanted to give you guys a rough estimate of when this could go into the game; currently we’re aiming to release this a bit less than a month from now, but we’ll let you know once the release date is looking more solid.
I can't wait!

I have played the Balance Test Map, and I love the way it feels, despite obvious balance challenges still in that iteration. As things get adjusted, I think, with the help of the Matchmaker, we should get a solid read on what can stay or not/what can be changed/toned down.
How often do you plan on patching the balance test map?

Having played HotS and LotV betas, I really think the HotS way was better. That one was weekly updates, then a big "wait and see", and then back to constant patches. LotV beta started off okay, but then felt really phoned in during the middle part of it, and didn't really pick up speed until the macro mechanics testing started.
08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie
With this in mind, if a race already has more options in a matchup, it will not get as many ‘diversity’ buffs as the other race who only has one option.


Increasing the options one race has frequently decreases the options their opponent has. The opponent has to respond to new threats and possibilities, so their own options are constrained. This isn't always the case, but most of the time it is.

08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie
Competition of which race got how much more or less than another race
We wanted to point out that things like “giving an equal number of changes to each race” is not the goal of the proposed changes.


I'm not sure that many people, if any, really care about the number of changes so much as the impact of the changes.

Terran is getting a huge hole to their design addressed. They're clearly going to be the "overall winner" in terms of design changes ... but that will help make the entire game more rich, so I don't think that anyone begrudges them that place.

What I see is mostly people wanting different kinds of design changes for their own enjoyment and filling of holes within their race.

The Terran changes are quite exciting. Are the Zerg and Protoss changes exciting enough for those players as well?
08/19/2016 12:07 PMPosted by KhalDanis
08/19/2016 12:02 PMPosted by Velitey
Hi,

Please consider changes to the Mothership Core (mostly Photon Overcharge), and other buffs to Protoss defense to compensate.

This is easily one of the most - if not the most - requested major design change by (mostly) the casual community.

Thx ~
Yes, this!

+1

Also, some of the pros are also in agreement with this. We thought the Adept was going to allow us less reliance on Photon Overcharge, but that hasn't been the case.

We, Protoss players as a whole, HATE relying on Photon Overcharge, and I think this is one of those things that needs a redesign/removal in favour of a more generic Adept that can hold its own all game long as a core unit. It currently cannot and is ONLY powerful in a timing in all non-mirror matchups and completely irrelevant in PvP.

08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie
Matchmaking for the test map
As you may have heard, we intend to get a matchmaking service online for those interested in playing more with the upcoming changes. We wanted to give you guys a rough estimate of when this could go into the game; currently we’re aiming to release this a bit less than a month from now, but we’ll let you know once the release date is looking more solid.
I can't wait!

I have played the Balance Test Map, and I love the way it feels, despite obvious balance challenges still in that iteration. As things get adjusted, I think, with the help of the Matchmaker, we should get a solid read on what can stay or not/what can be changed/toned down.


How would you feel about an Adept with either no shade or a redesigned/longer cooldown shade with somewhat better stats but some other change to make them less massable?
You can do a lot of good for this game without doing a major redesign but honestly that is what most people want it seems.

Personally, I don't enjoy the feeling that this major update is going to bring more harassment. This harassment heavy and ability heavy design philosophy you have taken on has been very damaging to the game. The vast majority of players do not want to spend the whole game defending mineral lines (or being forced to harass them) until one big fight happens that determines the game. This is painfully evident looking at both the forums and the games massive population fall off starting with HOTS and ending here.

If nothing else, please find a way to increase comeback potential or reduce the amounts of economic damage a player can do. There is way too much harassment in this game and it isn't FUN! When people say they want a Protoss redesign they want things like overcharge (reliance on the msc in general, really) or adept shade changed in favor of something else.

I also find that this update will NOT solve the issues with ZvT late game. The viper, when paired with ultra and corruptor, hard counter mech styles and with the changes to infestor, late game will be worse because drops will be easily stopped. Terran needs a better answer to that EXACT composition that doesn't require way more micro than the Zerg player. This update just increases the power Terran has mid game while decreasing its potential late game, this asymmetrical balance makes for a VERY stale and predictable game. It is incredibly difficult to counter ultralisks if you don't have fantastic (read: super high level) micro or an enormous advantage macro wise and I don't see this changing that.

It is pretty clear this major redesign just pushes the same form of harassment and ability heavy gameplay that you have pushed since the start of LOTV, and the vast majority of players aren't enjoying that. I know the pros (especially kespa pros) are the focus, but at some point you will have to address the fact that the game often feels broken at lower levels which discourages new players from trying to learn.

You did a major redesign already to the game with LOTV, and I don't really see why you think it is perfect now.. But, that could be PR talk, so who really knows.

Side note: I know you guys really focus on only 1v1 but please take a look at how team games are playing out, the economy changes were TERRIBLE for team games because the map mines out way too quickly. There needs to be a change to the mineral and gas resource amounts available in 3v3 and 4v4 maps, along with a matchmaking change for team games.
08/19/2016 12:02 PMPosted by Velitey
Hi,

Please consider changes to the Mothership Core (mostly Photon Overcharge), and other buffs to Protoss defense to compensate.

This is easily one of the most - if not the most - requested major design change by (mostly) the casual community.

Thx ~
This so much; PO removal in favor of buffs elsewhere for protoss is something the community has asked for for a long time. Not even protoss players like PO. It would also improve the viewing experience because there's nothing interesting about watching pylons defend attacks with a click.
08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie

With these design changes, we have a unique opportunity to put our entire focus on making sure that every matchup is in a balanced, fun, and diverse state. With this in mind, if a race already has more options in a matchup, it will not get as many ‘diversity’ buffs as the other race who only has one option. In short: the end result of these changes is what is important, not the changes themselves, and we hope everyone can get onboard with this way of thinking.


If more options are what we're looking for, one concern that I have and I have seen from many in the community is that the current iteration of the changes seem to make Terran bio play either very difficult or obsolete. Terran has been all bio and no mech for a long time, but what we don't want to see is all mech and no bio.

I do not understand all of the ins and outs of the other races as well, but I know that there is concern about the changes limiting the options on other matchups as well (roachs styles being entirely out in ZvT, mass air being the go to in PvT, etc.)
Thank you for the update. Indeed, this was one of the main questions about the changes I had in my mind.
08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie
Matchmaking for the test map
As you may have heard, we intend to get a matchmaking service online for those interested in playing more with the upcoming changes. We wanted to give you guys a rough estimate of when this could go into the game; currently we’re aiming to release this a bit less than a month from now, but we’ll let you know once the release date is looking more solid.
I don't mind that Terran got more than protoss. The mech changes will definately make the game more diverse. Yesterday I was playing a game against a guy who went mech and it was fun to see somebody play something besides bio.

Overall very good changes in this big patch though I do have an issue with one in particular.

Swamhosts: I didn't start playing sc2 competitively until the swarm host change in hots. It wasn't a coincidence. I simply don't find the unit fun to fight against though I'll admit it wouldn't be as bad as before.
08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie
Matchmaking for the test map
As you may have heard, we intend to get a matchmaking service online for those interested in playing more with the upcoming changes. We wanted to give you guys a rough estimate of when this could go into the game; currently we’re aiming to release this a bit less than a month from now, but we’ll let you know once the release date is looking more solid.
Yes! Thank you!
08/19/2016 12:23 PMPosted by Skolops
08/19/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Dayvie

With these design changes, we have a unique opportunity to put our entire focus on making sure that every matchup is in a balanced, fun, and diverse state. With this in mind, if a race already has more options in a matchup, it will not get as many ‘diversity’ buffs as the other race who only has one option. In short: the end result of these changes is what is important, not the changes themselves, and we hope everyone can get onboard with this way of thinking.


If more options are what we're looking for, one concern that I have and I have seen from many in the community is that the current iteration of the changes seem to make Terran bio play either very difficult or obsolete. Terran has been all bio and no mech for a long time, but what we don't want to see is all mech and no bio.

I do not understand all of the ins and outs of the other races as well, but I know that there is concern about the changes limiting the options on other matchups as well (roachs styles being entirely out in ZvT, mass air being the go to in PvT, etc.)

These are not final changes, units buffed a bit too much to get more input on the changes. Once input is received the changes may be tuned down.
08/19/2016 12:19 PMPosted by Skolops
How would you feel about an Adept with either no shade or a redesigned/longer cooldown shade with somewhat better stats but some other change to make them less massable?
I would welcome the cooldown heavy nerf or complete removal, but Adepts need to remain 2 supply, unless they get 2x the DPS of Glaive upgraded Adepts and cost 4 supply (which would be a little ridiculous).

Keeping Adepts at 2 supply, but removing/significantly nerfing cooldown on Shade, and upping Rate of Fire by +20% right off the bat and changing the damage from 10 (+12 Light) to something like 14 (+8 Light) - then Glaives giving anti-air plus another 20% RoF, or reworking the damage to not do bonus damage to Light at all, and doing generic damage like 16 flat damage, but at the +45% RoF out the gate and the Glaives upgrade giving Anti-Air capability only.

Things like this would make Adepts a stronger gate unit without being broken.
Please address the cyclone change. Mech doesn't need another anti ground unit, we already have good anti ground with hellbats, widow mines, banshees, new tanks and vikings. It needs a good anti air unit that. There is still no counter to protoss massing carriers, tempest and it is still the best counter to mech. When protoss does that terran is forced to turtle up and build vikings and ravens and then all of our meching units like tanks are invalidated...and the game ends up being a turtle fest which is cancer to the game.

Nerf the cyclone anti ground attack and give a strong anti air attack.
08/19/2016 12:31 PMPosted by KhalDanis
removing/significantly nerfing cooldown on Shade


If removed, it will need a movement speed increase from the beginning ... and possibly a speed upgrade as well. They're very slow units without the shade.
08/19/2016 12:41 PMPosted by Edowyth
08/19/2016 12:31 PMPosted by KhalDanis
removing/significantly nerfing cooldown on Shade


If removed, it will need a movement speed increase from the beginning ... and possibly a speed upgrade as well. They're very slow units without the shade.
That's a good point, but that would also mean less damage overall, if Adepts are kept very mobile...
08/19/2016 12:42 PMPosted by KhalDanis
That's a good point, but that would also mean less damage overall, if Adepts are kept very mobile...


An immobile unit doesn't allow one to remove PO because it must respond to offensive, mobile threats. If you can't address a blink all-in with adepts removing PO will never work.

The whole point of the movement upgrade would be to split up the movement speed so it isn't too speedy in the early game (before stim / ling / hydra / roach speed), but gets a boost later when everything else does too.
I'm really excited by the idea of these changes. Sure some won't go through and, hopefully, we will add new things that were not in the original patch notes as we ore forward, but I'm very happy to see crazy ideas like dts with blink than to simply do small number tweaks. This is the kind of stuff people have been asking for and I am super excited to test any and all new changes that this testing period brings. So please continue to throw out "out there" ideas that you come up with or see with the community. It is better to test something weird and find out it was bad, than to not test something and realize later that we needed it. Keep up the awesome work.

Also, very happy that we are seeing a matchmaking queue for the test map, and I hope it's not 1 map, but we have 5-7 maps in that queue to try the changes on.

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