Adept balance concern +++

General Discussion
I watch a lot of proleague/gsl/foreign tourneys + obviously play ladder a lot still.

Every game Protoss is going triple nexus vs Terran and the game turns into the Protoss player massing 30 adepts and shading on top of Terran's bio army (obv no one goes mech atm).

I think there's been a problem with the adept for the longest time. It breaks a lot of unwritten design principles.

a) Adept is the same unit as the zealot, but simply better
The adept right now is just a better zealot. Ranged, + dmg to light, cheap

b) Adept comes packed with a free ability requiring zero research
Imagine if stalkers came out of the gate with blink. Or zealots out of the gate with charge. The adept is a better zealot that comes out of the gate with an abiliy that's almost better than blink stalker blink. Something is not right here.

c) Adept shade can pass through units with no collision
This means you can't wall off against them, or block ramps with units, as well as mass adepts can get on top of an entire army of mech or bio and disrupt the units damage pattern since it breaks up the formation. A bit too strong

d) Low cost compared to a lot of massable tech units
Adepts being 25 gas means there's no drawback to simply massing them. You'll never make zealots over adepts in 99% of situations because the adept is simply a much better "super" zealot

e) free scouting with adept shade - zero drawback
You get free vision over and over with the adept shades. A bit too powerful for such a low tier unit that doesn't require a researchable upgrade

I personally don't enjoy playing against a low counter play unit like the adept on ladder or in tournaments. It feels cheap and it feels like i have no control over how the game will go.

I have a few suggestions on how the unit can be more properly balanced but maintain the same harrassment role, while not overlapping so much with the zealot.

Suggestion(s) *note* these are multiple suggestions, i am not saying to implement all of them - just that they are possibilities to consider:

a) Using the adept shade causes the adept to lose all of it's shielding
This alone may make adepts less oppressive and make Protosses consider using adepts solely for minor harrassment - rather than as the only unit in the army as they are used now.

A Protoss would have to consider building chargelots instead that would maintain full health before the fight and as they run in - as opposed to shading in with adepts and losing effectively half of their life for the price of the shade.

Adepts may end up being used more for their intended role of harrass, and zealots may come back as the main army unit as a result of this change. That is the theory.

b) Adept shade no longer grants vision
This means no more free scouting from the ability, and a Protoss would more often have to have vision to decide if he wants to shade in with adepts. Making them riskier to use

c) Adept shade is a researchable upgrade on the cybernetics core or twilight council

This would make it so adepts don't come out of the gate with essentially blink, as they currently do.

Thoughts?
Adapts only do bonus damage vs light units. Zealots are dependable DPS. Try and beat a Thor with Adepts.
08/19/2016 04:14 PMPosted by noobtastic
Adapts only do bonus damage vs light units. Zealots are dependable DPS. Try and beat a Thor with Adepts.

Who the !@#$ makes thors anyways?
08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
Using the adept shade causes the adept to lose all of it's shielding


This would neuter the unit completely. Adepts rely upon their shade for any mobility at all. Without it, they're one of the slowest units in the game.

08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
Adept shade no longer grants vision


Again, would completely destroy the unit. If an adept can't see where it's going, then there's zero thought allowed on the Protoss' side. He simply has to guess whether or not it's safe to shade into an area ... unless you're willing to suggest that shades should never, ever be used in an area where you don't already have a unit which, again, would destroy the unit's mobility completely.

08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
Adept shade is a researchable upgrade on the cybernetics core or twilight council


Then there would be no using them early game for anything. You'd have to get shade, +1, and glaives for the unit to be useful versus beginning units ... no other unit has this burden of upgrades to even simply be useful.

Protoss simply wouldn't make adepts until after two or more of these upgrades were researched (if at all).


None of these suggestions balance the unit, they just make it useless.
How about make adept shade uncancelable OR give collision to shade ability
08/19/2016 04:35 PMPosted by TREASON
How about make adept shade uncancelable OR give collision to shade ability


Adept loses in battles it doesn't shade on top in equal resource fights. Why would I make them?

Collision=FF
There's no legitimate problems with the adept had by people on the pro scenes who know anything about balance, I don't know why anyone is still talking about them
I hate adepts with a passion I wont lie.... The fact that it can shade right after shading is so infuriating, they can buy so much time.

Normally, they overextend, you know you can wipe out their adept easily and counter to stop their third base but...

They keep shading back and forth in your main to your third or nat, if you stop following them you lose tons of workers, so you have to keep running around with them, buying the protoss like 40 seconds or more to secure the third base, even tho on paper you had way enough army to wipe out his adepts and counter to deny the third.

Its just stupid, screw adepts man...
08/19/2016 04:30 PMPosted by Edowyth
08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
Using the adept shade causes the adept to lose all of it's shielding


This would neuter the unit completely. Adepts rely upon their shade for any mobility at all. Without it, they're one of the slowest units in the game.

08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
Adept shade no longer grants vision


Again, would completely destroy the unit. If an adept can't see where it's going, then there's zero thought allowed on the Protoss' side. He simply has to guess whether or not it's safe to shade into an area ... unless you're willing to suggest that shades should never, ever be used in an area where you don't already have a unit which, again, would destroy the unit's mobility completely.

08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
Adept shade is a researchable upgrade on the cybernetics core or twilight council


Then there would be no using them early game for anything. You'd have to get shade, +1, and glaives for the unit to be useful versus beginning units ... no other unit has this burden of upgrades to even simply be useful.

Protoss simply wouldn't make adepts until after two or more of these upgrades were researched (if at all).


None of these suggestions balance the unit, they just make it useless.


That's the entire point of my suggestion of it losing it's shields. You won't be able to use them so much as a fighting unit but it retains 100% of it's strength as a harrassment unit that you shade into a base.
As a zerg player who is routinely savaged by masters players who can micro for days with 2-3 adepts, I say cut them off at the knees. They are an awful unit and I want them to go away.

That said, from a harras standpoint, the no collision aspect is by far the worst. I can block ling run-bys and hellions with 2/1 queen(s) respectively, but nothing stops adepts. Also, lings don't 2 shot my drones, and rarely kill a queen.

Adepts grant full scouting that cannot be prevented, at least some damage in either worker kills or forcing extra defences well above the cost of the adepts as well as preventing tech/expansions while they are present.

If you remove the no-collision aspect, or if the shade was a summon of some sort that could be targeted without the unit itself dying, that would be great, as it would allow the player vsing it to actually do something about it, rather than just waiting for the opponent to stop.

For shading on top of armies, this has only happened to me once, and I had a few banes in my army, it was hilarious. Although I sympathies with terran players on this front.
I hate adepts too. Chasing them between naturals and main etc, and the dreaded 2 base adept glaive all in is a nightmare. I am sick of them personally and I rarely see zealots anymore :(
collison for shade is must, there is no other solution to balance the unit without it
08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
b) Adept shade no longer grants vision
This means no more free scouting from the ability, and a Protoss would more often have to have vision to decide if he wants to shade in with adepts. Making them riskier to use

c) Adept shade is a researchable upgrade on the cybernetics core or twilight council
one of these 2 seem best. they are so strong verse zerg currently. could also add the suggestion of removing glaive upgrade replacing it with a attack damage bonus to non armoured with a nerf to shade. be more of a core unit instead of agile anti light with high hp.
08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo
I watch a lot of proleague/gsl/foreign tourneys + obviously play ladder a lot still.

Every game Protoss is going triple nexus vs Terran and the game turns into the Protoss player massing 30 adepts and shading on top of Terran's bio army (obv no one goes mech atm).

I think there's been a problem with the adept for the longest time. It breaks a lot of unwritten design principles.

a) Adept is the same unit as the zealot, but simply better
The adept right now is just a better zealot. Ranged, + dmg to light, cheap

b) Adept comes packed with a free ability requiring zero research
Imagine if stalkers came out of the gate with blink. Or zealots out of the gate with charge. The adept is a better zealot that comes out of the gate with an abiliy that's almost better than blink stalker blink. Something is not right here.

c) Adept shade can pass through units with no collision
This means you can't wall off against them, or block ramps with units, as well as mass adepts can get on top of an entire army of mech or bio and disrupt the units damage pattern since it breaks up the formation. A bit too strong

d) Low cost compared to a lot of massable tech units
Adepts being 25 gas means there's no drawback to simply massing them. You'll never make zealots over adepts in 99% of situations because the adept is simply a much better "super" zealot

e) free scouting with adept shade - zero drawback
You get free vision over and over with the adept shades. A bit too powerful for such a low tier unit that doesn't require a researchable upgrade

I personally don't enjoy playing against a low counter play unit like the adept on ladder or in tournaments. It feels cheap and it feels like i have no control over how the game will go.

I have a few suggestions on how the unit can be more properly balanced but maintain the same harrassment role, while not overlapping so much with the zealot.

Suggestion(s) *note* these are multiple suggestions, i am not saying to implement all of them - just that they are possibilities to consider:

a) Using the adept shade causes the adept to lose all of it's shielding
This alone may make adepts less oppressive and make Protosses consider using adepts solely for minor harrassment - rather than as the only unit in the army as they are used now.

A Protoss would have to consider building chargelots instead that would maintain full health before the fight and as they run in - as opposed to shading in with adepts and losing effectively half of their life for the price of the shade.

Adepts may end up being used more for their intended role of harrass, and zealots may come back as the main army unit as a result of this change. That is the theory.

b) Adept shade no longer grants vision
This means no more free scouting from the ability, and a Protoss would more often have to have vision to decide if he wants to shade in with adepts. Making them riskier to use

c) Adept shade is a researchable upgrade on the cybernetics core or twilight council

This would make it so adepts don't come out of the gate with essentially blink, as they currently do.

Thoughts?


Avilo you seem like nice guy in stream, stop whine like little girl, its just a game
Protoss needs some major buffs to compensate, specially in the new upcoming patch.

I'm all up for it though. Remove the cancer tumors from Protoss: Adept and Mothership Core.
no other unit has this burden of upgrades to even simply be useful.

Did you heard about stim shield (almost require as well a medivac to go with...) and concussive for terran or speedling and baneling speed for zerg ?
Make shades killable, with an upgrade to weaken that burden.

A better solution would be to completely redesign warpgates, so that each one has a gas cost, then balance protoss early game around that.
08/19/2016 03:57 PMPosted by avilo

a) Using the adept shade causes the adept to lose all of it's shielding
This alone may make adepts less oppressive and make Protosses consider using adepts solely for minor harrassment - rather than as the only unit in the army as they are used now.

[/quote]

I love this suggestion; it just goes well with the lore of the shade: think of it as the shields that decouple from the unit. I think its very important to add a drawback to the use of the shield, so players have to use it with more care, taking into account the pros and cons to use it on each situation.

It could be implemented in different ways, for example:
A) The unit loses the shield after a non cancelled shade. But if its cancelled the adept keeps the shields. The shields could regenerate fast if not in combat, similar to the reaper regen mechanic.
B) The adept itself loses the shield while the shade is off her body (temporary)... in that time the adept is vulnerable so its easier to kill it.
C) An adept without shields cannot shade. That means, if you drain the adept's shields while shading, the shade gets cancelled...

The consecuence of any of these options is that the ability cannot be used in all situations and without drawbacks. That levels the field for both players. I think its also elegant.

PS. Sorry if my english is bad.
Not other unit has a burden of upgrades.

What a load of !@#$.

Try using marines without stim and combat Shields with medivacs support.

Try using a raven without its 4 nessisary upgrades.

T has to invest significantly in add-on's and upgrades to compete more than the protoss ever will
I would just like to see them remove the "Cancel" on shade. That way you are committing if you scout too long and you are giving the opponent some advantage if they react properly. (An advantage they are entitled to with every other unit interaction.)

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