Community Feedback Update - 8/26

General Discussion
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Thoughts on the test map so far
It’s cool seeing a lot of constructive discussion on whether or not certain things are good/bad for the game as well as if certain changes are strong/weak right now. We agree that it’s a bit difficult to tell with so many things having changed at once, but we are exploring ways to have a bit more high-level game representation within the balance testing. And we would really love to encourage more players to continuously play the test maps especially after the matchmaker goes out in a couple of weeks.

Now, let’s talk about a few specific items.

Infestor
Both of the new abilities on the Infestor are kind of achieving the similar goal of surprising the enemy before Infestor spells can be cast. When we compare the two things: casting all abilities while burrowed and Deep Tunnel, we believe that the first is much cooler, while Deep Tunnel has significant overlaps with the Battlecruiser’s Tactical Jump ability. Therefore, we wanted to get your thoughts on removing Deep Tunnel, and pushing the cast while burrowed ability to be the strong add.

Adept
We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.

Banshee Speed Upgrade
This upgrade at the current tech level does seem to be a bit too much right now. We have been discussing between reducing the speed bonus a bit, or increasing the research time to delay when it is available. Please let us know what your thoughts are regarding this.
I really like the idea of reducing vision radius on adept shades. The biggest advantage of the shades is you can really easily know when to commit based on "Any units? Yes: Cancel, No: Commit." With reduced range you could require tosses to properly scout around with shades when doing a mass shade and allow good opponents to hide the units by avoiding the shades since they can see them better till the right moment to bait a bad commit which would be really cool
I'm not sure that I understand what impact reducing the shade vision radius would have on any of the problems people have with Adepts right now.

Perhaps you could give some further explanation as to the purpose of this proposed change.

As it is, Adepts are drawing a lot of ire because they are very strong when massed in the early game, and because the low cooldown on the shade makes it extraordinarily difficult to defend as they go back and forth between two (or three) locations while they are strong enough to require a good number of units to defend in any one location.

How would reducing the vision of the shade help with this problem? I suppose it could theoretically make it riskier to shade in somewhere, but as it stands the problem people have is having enough to defend the second location in the first place.

If this is not the problem that is intended to be addressed with the change, what problem is it that you have in mind?
08/26/2016 10:09 AMPosted by Skolops
I'm not sure that I understand what impact reducing the shade vision radius would have on any of the problems people have with Adepts right now.

Perhaps you could give some further explanation as to the purpose of this proposed change.

As it is, Adepts are drawing a lot of ire because they are very strong when massed in the early game, and because the low cooldown on the shade makes it extraordinarily difficult to defend as they go back and forth between two (or three) locations while they are strong enough to require a good number of units to defend in any one location.

How would reducing the vision of the shade help with this problem? I suppose it could theoretically make it riskier to shade in somewhere, but as it stands the problem people have is having enough to defend the second location in the first place.

If this is not the problem that is intended to be addressed with the change, what problem is it that you have in mind?


I think the point is the toss is much less sure it's a safe shade. Adepts will get wrecked if they shade and an army is ready for them, but if they can't see them without specifically sending a shade out to look which can be dodged, they may commit and lose everything. In the past, it was really easy to know it was a good shade because you saw literally everything.
Thanks for the update! My votes:

Infestor: I agree with the burrowed spells as the buff since the infested terran spell already has this. It goes more with the infestor theme.

Adept: sure, why not?

Banshee: playing bio, I like the longer build time; I don't know if locking this upgrade in a building is good. I tend to build banshees in the early game, and then in midgame it's the reactored starport units. By the time I get to late-game, I'm prioritizing advanced ballistics and reactors because I need stuff to fight the +8 ultras and larger units that banshees can't. So if the upgrade is locked by a building I probably won't get it going bio. If I'm going mech, though, I think it's fine since I use banshees in the mid-game and late-game for harass. What speed nerf is being considered if the speed upgrade stays the way it is? It has to be enough to be worth getting.

I still think the banshee needs more firepower in bio. Maybe the mech/sky guns can be merged again, and the mech/sky armors can be split again.
Meanwhile the disruption sphere continues to destroy mineral lines. As intended ofc.
Infestor: I agree that post buffs are a bit too strong. Also Zerg got Nydus worm already. Beside that this would make harassment by Infestor too strong because it lags of any commitment.

Adept: I don't get the debuff on the adept vision. But to be honest I dislike the idea of the adept getting any more debuffs. Adept and Stalker became this weak that I start to ask if you want Gateway Units as backborn of the Protoss Army. Before LotV Protoss COULD NOT use Gateway Style because of Widow Mine. Now Gateway Style is on an equal State with Zerg and Terran. With the new Patch the Adept and the Stalker are getting both so much weaker. I would suggest to first try out how this fix the adept vs Bio/Zerg.

Banshee: I like the Idea that 2 Upgrades are viable. But I agree that the current banshee is *a bit* too quick.
good changes
08/26/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Parrek
08/26/2016 10:09 AMPosted by Skolops
I'm not sure that I understand what impact reducing the shade vision radius would have on any of the problems people have with Adepts right now.

Perhaps you could give some further explanation as to the purpose of this proposed change.

As it is, Adepts are drawing a lot of ire because they are very strong when massed in the early game, and because the low cooldown on the shade makes it extraordinarily difficult to defend as they go back and forth between two (or three) locations while they are strong enough to require a good number of units to defend in any one location.

How would reducing the vision of the shade help with this problem? I suppose it could theoretically make it riskier to shade in somewhere, but as it stands the problem people have is having enough to defend the second location in the first place.

If this is not the problem that is intended to be addressed with the change, what problem is it that you have in mind?


I think the point is the toss is much less sure it's a safe shade. Adepts will get wrecked if they shade and an army is ready for them, but if they can't see them without specifically sending a shade out to look which can be dodged, they may commit and lose everything. In the past, it was really easy to know it was a good shade because you saw literally everything.


But when does this ever happen? Adept shades are used really in three ways:

1) Scouting. I don't think the shade ability to scout is a problem.

2) Shading onto an army to initiate a mid or late game engagement when the Protoss already has vision of the army anyways.

3) Attacking one base at a timing when the Adepts are your entire army and so they match the opponent in army supply and take all of it to defend, waiting until the opponent has reinforced where the Adepts are, and shading somewhere else where they know there are no or only very few units without needing to see it.

If this kind of thing was a big problem with Adept harass in the later stages of the game I think it would make sense as a nerf, but this is only very rarely what happens. The real problem people have is earlier on when there's no risk of having a force in the other location.
08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Therefore, we wanted to get your thoughts on removing Deep Tunnel, and pushing the cast while burrowed ability to be the strong add.
Yes, removing deep tunnel while keeping casting spells while burrowed is desirable. That said, I would like to suggest balancing NP to be 8 range so that when detection is available, NP has more risk to it.

FG at the current range is fine, however.

08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Adept
We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.
This would be worth testing to make Adepts slightly harder to use, but I feel like a bigger design change needs to happen with the Adept.

  • Some of us have suggested removing the bonus to Light and giving it a flat 15 damage, make it have a higher weapon period with Glaives, but make them more fragile/glass cannon-like. Something like reducing the HP while keeping thr same amount of shield points could work.


This would make Adepts less specialized and more generalist to help Stalkers and Zealots in defensive and offensive roles without stepping on any toes while boosting gateway tech dps a little.

  • Another suggestion I have made in the past was to keep the bonus to Light, but rebalance the damage to be 12+10 to Light, and add Anti-air capabilities as well as +45% fire rate, but remove shade.

    Maybe buff base movement speed slightly.


It would make Adepts specialists vs Light units with lower mobility than stalkers, but would have staying power alongside other specialists.

Stalkers would rule as mobility units once more, but Adepts can now be combined as support for them in certain situations of harassment or defense.

With Glaives giving AA, Adepts become specialists vs Light on the ground and vs Air, while Stalkers remain mobile anti-armour against both air and ground.

Also, this makes it so that Twilight tech can be a strong alternative to stargate vs Zerg and Protoss. Against Terran, Mech in this patch would allow for Adepts to be a luttle stronger vs armoured than they are currently, but not by much. The AA latergame would also help vs banshee play, but won't necessarily counter it because Banshees still have higher range and can kite them easily.

I would like to suggest as a side note:

Disruption Sphere on Tempests be a Fleet Beacon upgrade, because it is currently too abusable as a rushed tool.

08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Banshee Speed Upgrade
This upgrade at the current tech level does seem to be a bit too much right now. We have been discussing between reducing the speed bonus a bit, or increasing the research time to delay when it is available. Please let us know what your thoughts are regarding this.
Yeah, this is too strong atm. Reducing the speed bonus by 40-50% from its current value would justify the current level. Banshees don't need to be super fast; they need to be able to escape to help them stay alive, and giving them slightly more speed will help them without making that upgrade too strong too early.

Delaying the research time won't change much outside of timing attacks, and that's not where the banshee speed shines anyways.

Give it less of a speed bonus, but keep it accessible as an option for Terrans to use. It should be this secondary upgrade that can be favoured over cloak.

That's why it needs the current research time, but the speed boost should be lower.
08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
AdeptWe are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.


This sounds like a very solid change, I would go ahead and test it. Since the Adept's Shade has no risk to it, the reduced vision would help balance the utility of that tool fairly.

08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Banshee Speed UpgradeThis upgrade at the current tech level does seem to be a bit too much right now. We have been discussing between reducing the speed bonus a bit, or increasing the research time to delay when it is available. Please let us know what your thoughts are regarding this.


Adding to the research time could help delay it early game if it's really a problem. It sounds like a solid change to add some extra time to the research to delay it. This is still better than requiring something like an Armory or a Fusion Core so it could actually gain more use. I feel like making it take longer to research is a good call.

08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
InfestorBoth of the new abilities on the Infestor are kind of achieving the similar goal of surprising the enemy before Infestor spells can be cast. When we compare the two things: casting all abilities while burrowed and Deep Tunnel, we believe that the first is much cooler, while Deep Tunnel has significant overlaps with the Battlecruiser’s Tactical Jump ability. Therefore, we wanted to get your thoughts on removing Deep Tunnel, and pushing the cast while burrowed ability to be the strong add.


I don't fully understand how a Zerg unit's ability overlap's with a Terran's ability. However, I do understand why you would want to remove this, I don't think another potential harassment tool (Albeit risky for Zerg) is necessary to have in the game.

I would be in favor of removing Deep Tunnel so they may keep the other change to cast while burrowed.
Shade vison radius on adepts?

That is the nerf you come up with after literally everyone in the world is saying the SHADE DURATION AND SHADE COOL DOWN NEED TO BE NERFED.

This is what you come up with though? Buff Zerg, insignificant nerf to protoss insignificant buff to terran.

Come on fix the GAME. FIX IT NOW HOLY CHRIST

Try being a non-pro player and having to deal with zerg. The game is UNPLAYABLE FOR TERRAN AT LOW MASTERS HIGH DIAMOND MMR. I shouldnt just be able to switch races and slaughter terrans at my mmr. I really should not be able to do this if the game had any sort of balance to it.
These seem to be a good reflection of the testing so far.

I think the best way to balance the shade is to increase its cooldown by 3-4 seconds, or by making the cooldown start once the shade disappears. Currently, the shade is able to send a shade to another base. if you dont chase them until the shade finishes, they are off of coodown by the time you reach them at their new location, . The bases are typically the right distance away from each other for this. It makes them too hard to count and cheap of a harrass option.
08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Adept
We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.
This would be worth testing to make Adepts slightly harder to use, but I feel like a bigger design change needs to happen with the Adept.

  • Some of us have suggested removing the bonus to Light and giving it a flat 15 damage, make it have a higher weapon period with Glaives, but make them more fragile/glass cannon-like. Something like reducing the HP while keeping thr same amount of shield points could work.


This would make Adepts less specialized and more generalist to help Stalkers and Zealots in defensive and offensive roles without stepping on any toes while boosting gateway tech dps a little.


I very much like this suggestion, and as a Terran and thereby particularly susceptible to Adepts I would even argue that that an overall nerf to the HP of Adepts may not be necessary. Rather, take however much of an HP reduction is is suggested (20 points, maybe?) and shift it to shields. This keeps the Adept usable as an early game unit without nerfing it too much (dropping the HP AND the damage to light may be too much of a hit), but discourages players from massing them in the later game when Ghosts are out. It also doesn't have much of an impact on PvZ, where I think with the baneling and Hydra changes in the test map they may already be in a good state.

I like it much better than the anti-air suggestion, as I think even with the other proposed changes it does step on Stalkers' toes too much.
I'm disappointed that you're ignoring the state of the current game while punting everything to post-blizzcon changes. This is a repeat of the end of 2012/Wings of Liberty and harmful to the game. Protoss is going to remain dominant in Korea and Blizzcon is going to be a Zerg and Protoss-fest. Good thing you nerfed terran this year though, heaven forbid there be more than 2/16 slots be filled with a terran in the biggest tournament in the year.
08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie

Adept
We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.

This will not affect the dynamic of offensive adept usage whether it's as a dedicated attack or as harrassment. It will reduce scouting effectiveness, but that's not the issue with adepts. The issue is their extreme mobility and survivability.

You see protoss players suggesting this because they don't want the adept to be nerfed in an actually effective way. It's a repeat of the mothership core vision nerf in 2014. Protoss players rallied around it because they wanted to avoid nerfs that actually mattered. Please don't repeat that.
<span class="truncated">...</span>This would be worth testing to make Adepts slightly harder to use, but I feel like a bigger design change needs to happen with the Adept.

  • Some of us have suggested removing the bonus to Light and giving it a flat 15 damage, make it have a higher weapon period with Glaives, but make them more fragile/glass cannon-like. Something like reducing the HP while keeping thr same amount of shield points could work.


This would make Adepts less specialized and more generalist to help Stalkers and Zealots in defensive and offensive roles without stepping on any toes while boosting gateway tech dps a little.


I very much like this suggestion, and as a Terran and thereby particularly susceptible to Adepts I would even argue that that an overall nerf to the HP of Adepts may not be necessary. Rather, take however much of an HP reduction is is suggested (20 points, maybe?) and shift it to shields. This keeps the Adept usable as an early game unit without nerfing it too much (dropping the HP AND the damage to light may be too much of a hit), but discourages players from massing them in the later game when Ghosts are out. It also doesn't have much of an impact on PvZ, where I think with the baneling and Hydra changes in the test map they may already be in a good state.

I like it much better than the anti-air suggestion, as I think even with the other proposed changes it does step on Stalkers' toes too much.
I believe that this suggestion is pretty good too because it is in line with what all of us Protoss players have been asking for in a gate unit.

My suggestion for Glaive AA and no shade (as a contrast vs stalker blink mobility) was more to further explore the "Adept as a Specialist" route. It's different, and sometimes, it may step on Stalkers' toes, but not by a whole lot, because Stalkers have a different role thanks to Blink and their +bonus to Armour.

But, yes, that first suggestion, as you said, with the new Terran changes might not even need an HP nerf.
Maybe have the Banshee upgrade require an Armory? That's a nice middle ground between the Fusion Core and Tech Lab, since you need the Armory anyway for air weapon upgrades.

That said, I don't think a minor reduction in speed would be a bad option either. They do seem a tad faster than what really makes sense for a unit like that.
08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Infestor
Both of the new abilities on the Infestor are kind of achieving the similar goal of surprising the enemy before Infestor spells can be cast. When we compare the two things: casting all abilities while burrowed and Deep Tunnel, we believe that the first is much cooler, while Deep Tunnel has significant overlaps with the Battlecruiser’s Tactical Jump ability. Therefore, we wanted to get your thoughts on removing Deep Tunnel, and pushing the cast while burrowed ability to be the strong add.

I think that the burrowed casting is the cooler ability, but I'd disagree with overlap with tactical jump being an issue. Each race also has their own drop mechanics that are slightly different from each other. Deep Tunnel also requires map vision similar to nydus networks where tactical jump does not. If you want to change it up, make it so that it's only able to be activated on creep and you can only tunnel to somewhere you have a creep tumor. I think it's an interesting ability and wouldn't like to see it disappear entirely. Not like we see tactical jump/battlecruisers used all that heavily anyway.

08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Adept
We are seeing feedback of trying out a change where the vision radius is reduced on the Adept shades. Unless there is strong disagreement about this change, we’ll start testing on this as well.

I like it.

08/26/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Banshee Speed Upgrade
This upgrade at the current tech level does seem to be a bit too much right now. We have been discussing between reducing the speed bonus a bit, or increasing the research time to delay when it is available. Please let us know what your thoughts are regarding this.

Prefer reducing the bonus a little, as increasing the delay just introduces the same problems at a slightly later time.
08/26/2016 11:06 AMPosted by Vindicare
Maybe have the Banshee upgrade require an Armory?

It was tested in one of the earlier balance test maps.
One change that i would like to address is the siege tank damage buff, i really dislike it, as zerg currently have no ground units that can deal with a terran having more than 5 tanks. Not only does it promote a very turtle style of mech, which is not only boring to play against, but also to watch, but it will also make vipers the only option to deal with them in zvt, so zerg will be forced to make vipers every game against terran.

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