Community Feedback Update - 9/16

General Discussion
Posted on Behalf of David Kim:

Worker/Army Counter
We’ve seen some great questions and comments on why certain decisions were made with our new Worker/Army feature in the UI, so we wanted to discuss how to proceed with potential changes to this feature. First, let us explain our thought process, and then we can decide whether our reasoning was sound and move forward from there.

We’ll begin by discussing the merits of the Worker/Army feature always being displayed vs. requiring a mouseover like we have it now. We had two main reasons for going with the current decision. First, we believe that unlike supply or current resources, this number isn’t something that players have to know every second of the game. Instead, these numbers are beneficial at specific points to gauge the state of the game and make specific decisions. Second, we want to avoid having too much information displayed in the UI. We want to keep the UI cleaner by minimizing the amount of non-essential information being shown on screen at any given moment.

Regarding how the workers are counted, we simply took the same numbers that the Units tab used for observers. This has caused some confusion, because the number is different from how the supply count works. For example, when you have 10 Marines and 10 SCVs and start building 1 more SCV, the supply is displayed as 21 / X (unit supply you have, AND units you are currently building) instead of 20 / X (unit supply you actually have right now). Meanwhile in the Units tab (and therefore in the new worker counter), it would only show that you have 10 SCVs, since that’s how many you currently have on the field.

All that said, these are things that can be changed if needed, so let’s try to figure out what the best choices are for the game before deciding on a solution.

Matchmaker and Balance Testing
Both the matchmaker and the changes we were discussing went out this week! Let’s play as much as we can and figure out our next steps for balance tuning!

ByuN
With how much ByuN accomplished last week, we thought he deserved his own section in the Community Update this week. Congratulations, ByuN! It was so awesome watching him take on teams of the best players in the world to win one of the most prestigious, longstanding tournaments in StarCraft II!
09/16/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Arkitas
Regarding how the workers are counted, we simply took the same numbers that the Units tab uses for observers. This has caused some confusion, because the number is different from how the supply count works. For example, when you have 10 Marines and 10 SCVs and start building 1 more SCV, the supply is displayed as 21 / X (unit supply you have, AND units you are currently building) instead of 20 / X (unit supply you actually have right now). Meanwhile in the Units tab (and therefore in the new worker counter), it would only show that you have 10 SCVs, since that’s how many you currently have on the field.

All that said, these are things that can be changed if needed, so let’s try to figure out what the best choices are for the game before deciding on a solution.


Please count workers as well as soon as they are in production. It is really strange when playing Zerg that some eggs work different than others.
Also it would be really helpful to finish at a prefered workercount when you know there are still 10 workers in production. Right now you have to guess or wait.

It might not be a big deal for Protoss or Terran but it is a big deal for Zerg.
Is there a way to get a hotkey that will allow me to see the army/worker counts? I feel it's really awkward to move the cursor up there, since most of the time I am doing that to move my screen.
No balance changes :(
My 2 Cents.

GSL Code-S Winners as well as Bonjwa's should have special portraits.
Please Blizzard to save this game, change these things:
Remove Tempest Disruption sphere, this spell is very broken, its much more strong than a storm and is free energy and research
Bring Carrier back to current version, without release interceptors, Carriers are very Overpowered in current version, because interceptors are almost free
Change Raven Turret to Current version in game, but Buff PDD (decrease energy cost to 75) or Change Hunter seeker missile (decrease delay time from 5s to 3s)
Remove Nydus invulnerability (make it Burrowed while casting, invisible not invencible)
Remove Caustic Spray from Corruptors (and improve corruptor's AA)
Remove Reaper Grenades
Keep Liberator AA +2 vs light Bonus (but change AG damage to compensate)
Keep Hydra range at 6 (Hydras are already strong, if weak increase their DPS)
Decrease Queen Range to 7 (Queen Buff is not necessary anymore)
Change Swarm Host to a combat unit, not a gimmicky one, even the older version was better than the test one
09/16/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Arkitas
Matchmaker and Balance Testing
Both the matchmaker and the changes we were discussing went out this week! Let’s play as much as we can and figure out our next steps for balance tuning!


Units/Spells which need changes:

Raven Auto turret damage

Tempest Disruption sphere

Cyclone

reaper grenade

Swarmhost

Adept shade cooldown

Viper's parasitic bomb

queen range

Liberator/+range upgrade

8 Armor ultralisks

invincible nydus

T1 Overlord drops

warp prism pick up range

Blink DT
Thanks for the feedback. I think that making worker count always visible to the UI is a VERY relevant information to have. It is a crucial information because it is always used as an important benchmark for players, just like supply and minerals/gas. I completely agree and understand Blizzard caution and reasons to keep the UI as cleaner as possible but, again, this information is very important.

I've also had many problems when trying to point the cursor precisely over the supply and accidentaly moved the cursor to the edge of the screen and the camera went to unintended places. This happens quite a lot to players who have high sensitivity mouse or camera scrolling.

Lastly, it is not that intuitive to stop whatever we are doing in game to point the mouse cursor on the supply indicator. I'm sure that many players doesn't have even noticed this new feature.

I hope my feedback was useful! Thanks!

Edit: why not a checkbox on game settings to enable or disable the worker count to be visible permanently? We already have a checkbox for text game alerts which adds WAY MORE cluttering to the UI.
09/16/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Arkitas
Regarding how the workers are counted, we simply took the same numbers that the Units tab uses for observers.


When we hover over the supply count (say 35 / 40), then we absolutely should be able to do simple math to figure out what's going on.

**No one really cares if X / X+2 workers are currently produced vs producing.**

Moreover, it's just weird to have X "worker supply", Y "army supply", and X+Y+N "overall supply" with N>0.

The "units produced" tab is different than the "supply taken" indicator in the top right ... since this is in the "supply taken" indicator, it should work in the same manner.
It makes sense that the Test matches don't affect MMR but would it be possible to still make it count for achievements for number of wins as the selected race? It's a long crawl to 1000 wins for the final portraits. Or making another achievement reward available might be a nice incentive to work on test matches. Not a big deal, just a thought.
I thought he was overrated at first, but I think ByuN suddenly became the favourite to win Blizzcon.
Arikitas / David, please consider F2 customization (e.g. dont select observers with F2), together with the ability of workercount you might win back some more casual players... We had a large thread about it where you promised to get back on the subject, no pressure ;)
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
Swarmhost

Is still awful because of supply cost and cooldown time.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
Viper's parasitic bomb

Has been fine for several months.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
8 Armor ultralisks

Are only a problem if you stay on bio, which is what it's supposed to counter. If you reduce armor it no longer counters bio and you have zero reason to ever transition into late game tech.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
invincible nydus

Is not an issue and if it was reverted to hots style the nydus would see no use.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
T1 Overlord drops

Also not an issue, terran is not the only race allowed to be aggressive early game.

The goal is to make mech viable without ruining other styles. Not to nerf z and p so hard that terran wins every game. If you're not going to be helpful please go away.
The worker count is good as is. Mouseover is fine, because for newer players, having an extra number that they ask "what is that for", is pointless, not to mention ugly to look at. Pros won't need it, and if you're not sure how many workers you have yet, it should cost you potential apm. Having the workers that are currently being built not count towards that number is also fine. If I want to know how many workers I have, it should be those that are currently alive and ready to do something asap. The worker display changes are fine as is.

I'm going to post again, for exposure, that I believe having split mech ground and terran air upgrades should be tested, for multiple reason. For one, it would prevent turtle mech into air, which is one of the concerns. Two, it would prevent an easy transition into air for terran, which is no longer required if terran mech is viable on it's own. It may not be a solution to mass ravens, but at least would alleviate some of the other concerns, and is also no longer required with the other terran mech buffs.
09/16/2016 11:17 AMPosted by Ace
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
Swarmhost

Is still awful because of supply cost and cooldown time.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
Viper's parasitic bomb

Has been fine for several months.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
8 Armor ultralisks

Are only a problem if you stay on bio, which is what it's supposed to counter. If you reduce armor it no longer counters bio and you have zero reason to ever transition into late game tech.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
invincible nydus

Is not an issue and if it was reverted to hots style the nydus would see no use.
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
T1 Overlord drops

Also not an issue, terran is not the only race allowed to be aggressive early game.

The goal is to make mech viable without ruining other styles. Not to nerf z and p so hard that terran wins every game. If you're not going to be helpful please go away.
i-i-i dont like that your opinions LEAVE THIS FORUMS NAO PLZ<<you
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
09/16/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Arkitas
Matchmaker and Balance Testing
Both the matchmaker and the changes we were discussing went out this week! Let’s play as much as we can and figure out our next steps for balance tuning!


Units/Spells which need changes:

Raven Auto turret damage

Tempest Disruption sphere

Cyclone

Swarmhost

Adept shade cooldown

Viper's parasitic bomb

queen range

Liberator/+range upgrade

8 Armor ultralisks

invincible nydus

T1 Overlord drops

warp prism pick up range

Blink DT

Let's not forget :

Mule free income for no supply, can be called anywhere on the map, even used to BM the other.

The most cost effective unit of the game : marines.

Marauder have the same dps of two stalkers while they cost 50/25 less than one.

Reaper grenade.

Medivac heal rate ten times more than mutas, medivac boost as fast as phoenix.

Flying building making trade base vs terran nearly impossible.

PF + repair.

WM : mine that don't die, are invisible, cheap, do AOE, and move fast, hit ground and air (at the same times).

Hellion : counter the unit that can catch them : lings, and are faster than the units that can fight them : roach.

Tank : more range than broodlord, available with just one factory without any upgrade requirement.

Zergs can't beat any terran before Hive tech without a complete all-in that have really poor chance of sucess.

Don't forget the strength of your race.

The ultimate proof is Byun, a teamless player is able to win GSL with Terran, proving terran race is competitive.
Also you will claim Byun is a god, but we all know if a teamless Zerg or Protoss had done the same, you would say he would be a patchToss/Zerg.

Enough of terrans who are martyring theirself while terran is the dominant race of aligulac, winning GSL, have 55-60% winrates vs zerg on kor tournament...
09/16/2016 02:37 PMPosted by Imperator
09/16/2016 10:34 AMPosted by JudgeP
...

Units/Spells which need changes:

Raven Auto turret damage

Tempest Disruption sphere

Cyclone

Swarmhost

Adept shade cooldown

Viper's parasitic bomb

queen range

Liberator/+range upgrade

8 Armor ultralisks

invincible nydus

T1 Overlord drops

warp prism pick up range

Blink DT

Let's not forget :

Mule free income for no supply, can be called anywhere on the map, even used to BM the other.

The most cost effective unit of the game : marines.

Marauder have the same dps of two stalkers while they cost 50/25 less than one.

Reaper grenade.

Medivac heal rate ten times more than mutas, medivac boost as fast as phoenix.

Flying building making trade base vs terran nearly impossible.

PF + repair.

WM : mine that don't die, are invisible, cheap, do AOE, and move fast, hit ground and air (at the same times).

Hellion : counter the unit that can catch them : lings, and are faster than the units that can fight them : roach.

Tank : more range than broodlord, available with just one factory without any upgrade requirement.

Zergs can't beat any terran before Hive tech without a complete all-in that have really poor chance of sucess.

Don't forget the strength of your race.

The ultimate proof is Byun, a teamless player is able to win GSL with Terran, proving terran race is competitive.
Also you will claim Byun is a god, but we all know if a teamless Zerg or Protoss had done the same, you would say he would be a patchToss/Zerg.

Enough of terrans who are martyring theirself while terran is the dominant race of aligulac, winning GSL, have 55-60% winrates vs zerg on kor tournament...
so your rebuttal to every universally complained about zerg issue is to list off every single terran unit? its like the joke race has finally translated into joke players
09/16/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Arkitas
We’ll begin by discussing the merits of the Worker/Army feature always being displayed vs. requiring a mouseover like we have it now. We had two main reasons for going with the current decision. First, we believe that unlike supply or current resources, this number isn’t something that players have to know every second of the game. Instead, these numbers are beneficial at specific points to gauge the state of the game and make specific decisions. Second, we want to avoid having too much information displayed in the UI. We want to keep the UI cleaner by minimizing the amount of non-essential information being shown on screen at any given moment.


I think that worker army count is at least as essential, if not more than total supply count.

But the worst thing about the current solution is - I didn't even know it was in the game until I read this post. If you are going to make an intuitive UI you shouldn't have to read the manual. So this is quite a big fail...
Byun=hero! Haven't seen anything like that since Maru's heydays.
09/16/2016 02:52 PMPosted by PsionicSun
09/16/2016 02:37 PMPosted by Imperator
...
Let's not forget :

Mule free income for no supply, can be called anywhere on the map, even used to BM the other.

The most cost effective unit of the game : marines.

Marauder have the same dps of two stalkers while they cost 50/25 less than one.

Reaper grenade.

Medivac heal rate ten times more than mutas, medivac boost as fast as phoenix.

Flying building making trade base vs terran nearly impossible.

PF + repair.

WM : mine that don't die, are invisible, cheap, do AOE, and move fast, hit ground and air (at the same times).

Hellion : counter the unit that can catch them : lings, and are faster than the units that can fight them : roach.

Tank : more range than broodlord, available with just one factory without any upgrade requirement.

Zergs can't beat any terran before Hive tech without a complete all-in that have really poor chance of sucess.

Don't forget the strength of your race.

The ultimate proof is Byun, a teamless player is able to win GSL with Terran, proving terran race is competitive.
Also you will claim Byun is a god, but we all know if a teamless Zerg or Protoss had done the same, you would say he would be a patchToss/Zerg.

Enough of terrans who are martyring theirself while terran is the dominant race of aligulac, winning GSL, have 55-60% winrates vs zerg on kor tournament...
so your rebuttal to every universally complained about zerg issue is to list off every single terran unit? its like the joke race has finally translated into joke players

Universally ? Do you ever heard kespa terran saying : Terran is so weak vs Z ?
It's more "I hope i will play vs Zerg rather than vs T or P"

Open aligulac : Leading race Terran, Terran, Terran, Terran,

Open liquipedia, do the TvZ stats of the premier tournaments : TvZ 52%, 55%, 57%, etc...

Terran weak argument : "I feel weak", "avilo is GM of the three race he said Z is easy and T harder"
But watch his stream : he got beaten vs low terran diamond when he plays zerg, and just get GM thx to his terran.
Only lies, subjective whines, and no terran can bring any evidence but "his feelings, or insulting who destroys their whine"

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum