Community Feedback Update - October 14

General Discussion
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Tempest Ability Removal + New Ability Add
For the Tempest ability, we agree that the current state isn’t working out. In response, our process is to first identify the issue (which we believe our community has done well), and then to make changes accordingly. In this case, the current ability was functioning more as worker line harassment, but that wasn't the intention, and we agree with your points that Protoss already has enough worker harass options. With that in mind, we’ve been testing a few different abilities instead of the current one. We’re currently leaning towards this: Tempest targets the ground, has a 5 second cast time, and then blasts the target location with electricity, stunning enemy ground units in the target area for 10 seconds (these numbers are obviously subject to change). Enemy will be able to see where the Tempest has targeted when the cast starts, and will also hear an under attack warning.

This change should keep Tempests focused on the front lines rather than on harassment. In combat, we are thinking something like this is more interesting because the correct response for both players will vary in different engagements. An ability like this will be stronger against units like Siege Tanks or Lurkers, which is what we need to target more so than the mobile units or worker lines. We’re hoping to start testing this right away, so we’ll get the changes out as soon as possible if you agree with this direction.

Tuning Changes
We’ve also been testing other changes, but for now we’d like to focus on the changes that we can begin testing out as early as next week.

First, we’d like to test a slightly slower attack speed for the Siege Tank. We agree that the damage is quite powerful right now, and we suspect it’s better to adjust the attack speed here rather than nerfing the damage. We’re thinking something like 2.8 to 3.

Second is a slight damage nerf to the Swarm Host. We agree that the buff has been too much in the current pass, and lowering the cost barrier was a good change. However, the effectiveness especially after we upped the swoop range seems too high right now.

For both of these changes, we will be moving in small steps so that we can make sure both units are in a much more powerful state than in the live game.

Cyclone
We’re seeing a lot of discussion regarding how the Cyclone currently in the live game (on ladder) is turning out much better than before, players are figuring out cool ways to micro them, and they’re seeing more usage than before. Unsurprisingly, this has led to feedback indicating that we should just revert the Cyclone back to live, and instead discuss buffing to the unit. This is definitely a possibility, but we do see the pros and cons of the live Cyclone vs. the Cyclone being tested. Therefore, we’d like you to focus your discussions around which Cyclone would be the best for the game, especially when considering all the other changes with this major patch.

This is an important topic at the moment, so let’s get constructive discussions going so that we can decide the best direction going forward.

Discussions Within the Community
We’d like to encourage everyone to try your best at working towards having productive discussions. Being negative towards something you don’t like is fine, but contributing no ideas and just being negative for the sake of being negative isn’t helpful. We’re definitely seeing good conversations, but also some of the less useful conversations as well.

Another thing we’d like to mention is that we totally agree with the feedback that we should be making tuning changes more often towards these last couple months of testing, so we’ll aim for patching at least once every two weeks at the latest.

We’d like to remind everyone that working on in-progress changes is difficult, but continuing to work at it together with the goal of making the game better will feel extremely rewarding once we get there. Let’s always keep this goal in mind when we get frustrated with some of the details—collaborating with the StarCraft community is of enormous benefit to the game, so let’s just stay focused and work on it together as one team!
Four questions concerning the Tempest ability:

Can you see the target location of the Tempest ability during the channeling time ?

What is the range ?

What is the cooldown ?

Can stunned units still attack ?
Can we possibly watch an illustration video of tempest's new ability? Thanks
I think for the Tempest the new ability sounds better.

For the cyclone I think that the test version is the better direction. I think it has too fast a firing speed/damage vs buildings in the early game so maybe roll some of that into a mid game upgrade, and also I think modify lock on. I think the main role of the cyclone should be early game/Mid game AA for mech so that mech can get out on the map and not have to turtle till thors. So maybe flip so that Cyclone needs to lock on to ground to attack them and have them naturally attack air. It can still assist hellions early game with armored targets but it will allow more mobile factory AA option vs phoenix and mutas

So Cyclone
-Only attacks air (Same stats as test but vs air)
-Lock on-Allows it to move and shoot and attack ground targets.

As for the swarm host. The problem is you cant really form strategies around it because the locust are cooldown only. Perhaps something like

Swarm Host
-Has energy now
-Spawn locust costs 50 energy (Same as now) They last 15 sec and it has a 30 sec cooldown.
-Locust swarm-Costs 75 energy Launches a locust swarm towards the targeted location units in that location take damage as long as they remain in AoE . Allows Swarm host to be aggressive and defensive to push back tank lines or stall an advancing enemy push (Lasts 10 sec or something).

Maybe another ability or something. But this allows the swarm host to keep the locust, but gives it other abilities so it is not dead weight during the locust cooldown and allows strategies to be formed around it.
I think the Cyclone should be left as it is on the ladder- design wise. It is fun and has utility and is unique. I think this alone is enough to justify its existence.

Mech already has an armored unit that is unmicroable but powerful and provides anti-air, the Thor - why not focus on it instead?
I think it would be helpful if David Kim shared his current thoughts about the Ultralisk. Throughout all the screaming on the forums there is a good point and that is that the current upgraded Ultralisk goes against the goal of promoting micronon both sides the way most of the LotV changes did. It's been brought up in Community Feedback before, but complaints about it are really overwhelming the forums along with the occasional complaints over early mass-Reaper rushes.

From the community side, it's not hard to recognize the process that the balance group likes to take. The preference is to either make small changes or replace certain abilities and upgrades with more interesting ones. Instead of these long ranting posts demanding that something be removed, perhaps some of you might suggest some alternative ideas that could be put in to replace the ones that aren't working out while still maintaining the theme of the unit.
Just like with the alternative Tempest ability that's about to be tested.

What I'm really saying is that to get along better, the development team and the forum-goers might try analyzing how the other does things and offering ideas in a way that the other can work with. I'm pretty sure that the main thing everyone here wants is to enjoy Starcraft II. Perhaps that's a goal that can be worked on together.
Swarm host's design is horrible, and tweaking numbers will never change the basic fact that building SHs in any matchup will either end up into blatant abuse of free units, or the zerg dying to a counterattack whithin the cooldown.

New tempest ability sounds better in design, however, how can you even consider the very idea of having 10 sec stuns in sc2. Why do you have to make this crap so freaking binary "either it backfires horribly, either it wrecks a whole army".
Like the idea of a long cast time though. If adding an ability is the only way to make the tempest work, having a long cast time is a must have.

Cyclone needs to be mid range (6-7) AA. As i've stated a whole lot before, having mech rely only on the thor as GtA is horrible and makes tvt a pointless campfest. Also, the inability to kite or harass ennemy forces with the cyclone makes it utterly pointless in mech compositions.

Reducing tank ROF to 2,8 or 3 : [EDIT] it's from 2,8 to 3 okay. Fine then, if the tank is too strong that's a sensible idea
Theres one discussion the community constantly has that is being ignored. Like literally theres times where there are 10+ different threads about it on the front page. And that is 8 armor ultralisk. Can you please talk about why you decided to not give the -1 armor to ultras? Along time ago it was brought up once in a community feedback. But now blizzard has swept the topic under the rug, while the community continues to rage on about it.

Can you at least issue a statement as to why you think its NOT NECESSARY in the current state of the game to not nerf the ultra by 1 armor? That way people can at least copy paste it into the million threads that are covering your front page? Cause im pretty sure every race has made it clear they dont like the 8 armor ultra.
Is it just me or does the new Tempest ability sound a lot like the Liberator ability, except that it doesn't do any damage and comes with an audible warning?
I'd still rather have no ability on the Tempest, but the new one is better than the old by far.
For the tank, is this 2.8 - 3 real time seconds from the current 2 ? That seems rather hard if I'm not mistaken on the current stats.
A slight damage reduce isn't enough for the swarm hosts at all. The current design is just bad and should be changed, maybe as anti-air by spawning scourges ?

For the Cyclone, the current version isn't terribly well designed, but at least it's funny to play and to watch, even if not to play against. The testmap version is just plain boring and useless after early game. The way I'd love to see for it is a mobile AA unit similar to the Goliath.
I like all of the ideas, maybe try 2.8 on the Siege Tank first before considering the 3 seconds but I do like the attack speed change much better than the damage nerf.

Tempest change seems good, I really like the idea put into it though I am curious about how long it lasts and how long it's range is.

I have an idea about the Cyclone: Reduce the ground lock-on range by 33%, reduce supply from four to three and increase it's life from 120 to 150. Ideally, this makes Cyclone more AA oriented while not completely crippling it's ground effectiveness by still having Lock-On when it's needed on the ground.
Four questions concerning the Tempest ability:

What is the range ?

Baby don't hurt me, no more
For the new tempest's ability, I think it sounds useless in a head-on engagement. The 5 seconds cast time is quite long, and it will not hit anything if the opponent pays attention. The only effected units is tank and un-upgraded widow mine, because they need time to unsiege/unburrow (no pick up right now) and your units could charge in right now. All other units can just move away and your tempest has little use right now (don't forget its ant-ground range is only 6 now). Lurker and upgraded mine's unburrow and burrow time is faster enough to dodge it.
Also, protoss has a unit called Distruptor. It will do real damage, harder to dodge (except Neeb and Byun), but tempest does not.

For tank, I don't think the high damage is a problem. Yes, it does 40% more damage to armored units right now, but only 5 more to ravagers and adepts, and you cannot save them any more by medivac. The new tank performs well when in large number and all siege up and waiting your opponent to charge in, but in small number or you are in trouble, you will just lost them for free. I wonder how Terran defend against roach/ravager all in because any tank in siege mode will die in 3 seconds by ravagers' fire ball. It will bring Terran to a more turtle style.
About Tempest

Personally I don't see the difference between the abilities. It's like a new stasis ward and it can (probably it will) still be used to stun workers in mineral lines to keep them from mining. Another concern is the strength of storm combined with this ability. It's like fungal with more than double the dps of fungal. Or rather like fungal with corrosive bile but with instant dps and stronger. Does protoss really need something like this ? I see hard times for light units that got buffed like hydras and banes.
10/13/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Dayvie
contributing no ideas and just being negative for the sake of being negative isn’t helpful.


Don't worry, Dayvie. The first time I saw your name was in 2008. No one can do the balance thing better than you and your team.
10/14/2016 10:58 AMPosted by Tholor

For the tank, is this 2.8 - 3 real time seconds from the current 2 ? That seems rather hard if I'm not mistaken on the current stats.

[/quote]
2.8 and 3 are in-game time. Tank in siege mode's attack is 3 in WoL, and a patch in Hots increase it to 2.8. Current 2 is real world time of faster speed for Lotv, which is 40% faster than in-game normal speed. The attack speed listed in editor is 2.8.
2 lotv time = 2.8 wol/hots time.
10/14/2016 10:50 AMPosted by McNasty
Theres one discussion the community constantly has that is being ignored. Like literally theres times where there are 10+ different threads about it on the front page. And that is 8 armor ultralisk. Can you please talk about why you decided to not give the -1 armor to ultras? Along time ago it was brought up once in a community feedback. But now blizzard has swept the topic under the rug, while the community continues to rage on about it.

Can you at least issue a statement as to why you think its NOT NECESSARY in the current state of the game to not nerf the ultra by 1 armor? That way people can at least copy paste it into the million threads that are covering your front page? Cause im pretty sure every race has made it clear they dont like the 8 armor ultra.


those 10+ threads you saw was a butthurt terran who necro-bumped every thread that had a mention of the ultralisk
There are few things i would like to test:

ZERG:
Hydralisk:
  • Remove +1 range upgrade
  • Add +20 HP
  • Hydra is too fragile to be a core unit in Zerg army. HP buff is in my opinion better than range.

    Lurker:
  • Reduce damage.
  • Right now I feel that Lurker is a little bit to strong.

    Ravager:
  • Remove Corrosive Bile
  • Add Corruption – increase damage taken by 10-20% for 10-20 seconds
  • Overseer:
  • Add Parasite (BW Queen spell). Cost: 75; Range: 10-12; Duration: 2-4 min
  • Swarm Host [siege unit]:
  • Remove locusts
  • Add Corrosive Bile. Change damage, range
  • Reduce speed
  • Can attack ground units
  • Must be burrowed to attack
  • Visible while burrowed
  • I think SH can be a really good siege unit and answer for new siege tanks. Especially when combined with Parasite spell.

    Infestor:
  • Remove Neural Parasite
  • Add something else, maybe spell that allows to infest structures
  • Viper:
  • Add Neural Parasite
  • Maybe change Parasitic Bomb to Plague
  • Viper as a flying unit may be more useful with Neural Parasite than Infestor.

    Mutalisk:
  • Remove Fast Regeneration
  • Ultralisk:
  • Allow Zerglings and Banes walk under Ultralisk
  • New units:
  • Scourge

  • PROTOSS:
    Sentry:
  • Remove Hallucination
  • Add Energy Field or Shield Battery spell.
  • Energy Field works as a pylon (can supply energy to nearby structures – does not allow to warp in units). Cost: 100 energies; Duration: 40-50 sec.
    Shield Battery replenishes units shield. Can heal one unit at a time. Two energy points can heal one shield point. Unit receiving shield recovery cannot move or attack.
    I think Protoss has enough possibilities to scout in early game. Energy Field spell can be useful in situations when your production was turned off by your opponent and you cannot wait 40 sec for pylon because you need units asap to defense. I know that Warp Prism has Phasing Mode but I don’t play robo every game. Shield battery may be too OP, but I would like to see that spell in action.


    Adept:
  • Increase Psionic Transfer cooldown or reduce damage by 25% and speed by 1 when spell is active or remove ability and add some HP
  • This unit is too strong.

    High Templar:
  • Add Hallucination spell
  • Reduce Storm damage
  • Warp Prism:
  • Reduce pick up range
  • Colossus:
  • Reverse the damage changes. Reduce HP to 150; Cost to 250 minerals. Maybe reduce speed a little bit
  • Mothership Core:
  • Remove unit

  • TERRAN:
    Marauder:
  • Bring back Marauder from HOTS
  • Thor:
  • Remove unit
  • New units:
  • Goliath
  • thanks for the update, i only have one question about the Siegetank change.

    first of all, i can understand the change, the new tank is powerful, slower attack speed adds more countermicro opportunity.

    10/13/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Dayvie
    it’s better to adjust the attack speed here rather than nerfing the damage.


    is this an overall DPS nerf (slower attack speed, damage unchanged) or will DPS be the same (slower attack speed, but attack damage increased to keep DPS) ?

    Thanks.

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