Community Feedback Update - October 6

General Discussion
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Not Testing Automating Spawn Larva
We agreed with the many strong arguments towards not needing to test this again. We were impressed with the quality of discussions around this topic, and overall we agree that with the Zerg changes already coming in, it is questionable to also make Zerg easier to play. Also, we thoroughly tested what this change means just last year, and there weren’t strong arguments to go against the conclusions that you guys brought up back then (neither from the community nor from the pro players). Therefore, we agree with the majority of you that going back and testing this again is unnecessary at this time.

Next Balance Test Update

The Cyclone, Baneling, and Auto Turret changes we discussed last week will go into testing this week because we haven’t see any alarming issues brought up.

We’ve tested the Stalker change, and feel that it does make Protoss compositions a bit more all-around and Stalker-based. While this might not necessarily be bad, but we’d like to hold off on this change unless it’s absolutely needed We don’t want to lose focus on the goal of seeing a strong diversity of gateway units being used, and we would like to get more feedback around the Zealot changes before pursuing other directions.

For the Tempest, we’d like to get some more feedback because it’s been a bit difficult to tell exactly how strong the fast-teching to Tempests route is. If it is a serious issue, we should definitely look into adding an upgrade or a cool-up time to the ability in order to nerf the time in which the ability hits the field.

We haven’t seen a lot of discussion on potential additional Protoss changes, but we still believe that slightly toning up the Disruptor (without buffing it much in PvP) could be a strong direction. In addition, we’ll keep looking at changes to the Stalker to help Protoss against early/mid game options that may arise due to the changes to other races. As always, we’re open to discussing and considering other ideas as well.

Thanks, and we look forward to seeing your discussions and feedback on these topics!
Speaking from a TvP point of view:

For the tempest, I just feel like no amount of delay will change the fact that it's a very abusable spell. Once it's on the field, it's like casting storm for 25+ seconds. And unlike storm, where I can EMP HT's, my only counterplay is to not let my opponent get there. Let's ignore the worker harass for a moment. The spell is capable of eating up static defenses. My walls were torn down in a few games, and depending on where the disruption sphere was placed, my workers would get damaged trying to fix it. It can also be used on ramps to slow down my advance.

Honestly, I think the stalker getting the +damage as a late-game upgrade would be a better way to go than making the disruption sphere work, testing-wise.
Nice! Thx for the update! :D
I understand the push to make Mech viable, but must it come at the expense of Bio? All Mech buffs in TvT, Baneling buff, Ultralisk armor being left unaddressed, etc. etc. Bio vs LBM was the best thing Starcraft 2 had going for it. Yes, it was "predictable" in terms of build-orders, but it was always exciting in terms of execution.

The current direction these changes are taking seems to favor turtling and slower positional play. Bio seems to be an after thought or possibly even being pushed out of the game. I truly hope this isn't the case.
stalker and zealot need buff- otherwise no solid gatearmy for toss
10/06/2016 10:18 AMPosted by Dayvie
We haven’t seen a lot of discussion on potential additional Protoss changes, but we still believe that slightly toning up the Disruptor (without buffing it much in PvP) could be a strong direction. In addition, we’ll keep looking at changes to the Stalker to help Protoss against early/mid game options that may arise due to the changes to other races. As always, we’re open to discussing and considering other ideas as well.

Please change adepts instead.

- Remove shade AND buff basic movement speed (4.55 in LotV speed)
- Flatten damage (16 flat with no +light damage)

Buffing stalkers will will simply keep Protoss focused on Adepts in the early-game and lead to no new or interesting strategies. While a disruptor change could be interesting (something like 1/4 the cooldown for 1/3 the damage?), a change to Protoss' early game with Adepts is needed in all the match-ups to keep the game from wholly stagnating.
I personally believe the tempest isn't an issue. If you're losing to a tempest rush proxy or if it becomes common wouldn't the easy counter to it be any aggressive opening that relies on the fact that most protoss can't afford to get any defenses behind such a fast rush? I think of it as having the same problem rushing blink DTs presents, most maps it will not be that easy to get behind a mineral line either since many of them don't have space behind them sufficient for such things
Did I missed A stalker change? Can someone enlighten me pls?

My Thought about Gateway Composition:

Why does Protoss Compositions need to be about all Units?
I mean Mid-Game: Protoss Meta Compositions are contains
PvT: Sentry, Adept, Stalker (+Immortal, Warp Prisma)
PvP: (Immortal), Sentry, Adept, Archon, (maybe Stalker before and after)
PvZ: Adepts, Sentrys, (Immortal), Chargelots, Archons

In Beta
The Zealot that right now is only played in Late game or vs Mech will get buffed. Do you want Zealots, Adepts, Stalker, Sentry + Archons in a single Composition?

Terran does not need Reaper in bio
Zerg does never play: Ling, Banes, Roach, Ravager, Hydra, Lurker, Muta, Corruptor, Queen, and Infestor in Midgame, do they?

My thought: Make Adepts a SCOUTING Unit like the reaper. High Mobility, low LP,
make Stalker a fighting Unit with flat dmg like Marines.
I agree about the Disruption Sphere requiring an upgrade, at the moment it comes up way too soon and if used on a mineral line it can wreck havoc and completely destroy an opponent economy.

What I would like tested, is to have the Disruption Sphere damage behave like the old sc1 Plague, this means that it can only damage the enemy units to 1hp, without killing them. The periodic damage could be even increased, if it becomes too useless. This would actually create some very much needed synergy between Tempests and other protoss units.
I would also like to state that the cyclone's lock-on has made it the #1 best unit for opening vs cheesy Protoss as it can handle many different types of attacks, and not only woudl this new version be pretty awful at that but the stalker/voidray or stalker/pylon rush openings would be much more difficult to deal with if stalkers get buffed vs marines/scvs as this patch would do.

Terran has always been lacking in the sufficient early-game defense department and no a bunker that lacks the DPS to kill two building pylons that are started in front of it is not a fair answer since it also takes twice as long to build.
How about replace disruption sphere with disruption web?
10/06/2016 11:32 AMPosted by TREASON
How about replace disruption sphere with disruption web?

I like how the helps get around the static D issue of tempests having lower range but it also allows for easier pushes with things like voids etc. I like this a lot if it stopped mines from shooting as well
Like many Zergs I agree that autoinject would not be good for the game.

However I would embrace a look in too making creepspread a little less of a task.

Some ideas:
- tumor makes one hop on itself before (the next) manual intervention is needed;
- queens automatically make a creep tumor when in the vicinity of the 'edge' of creep;
- queens start making tumors once their energy is above a certain threshold;
- creep made by tumors retracts more slowly than creep made by overlords (to avoid base blocking).

I'm just thinking out loud here, please add more ideas.

Edit: TIL that the order of the red thumb does not like Zerg :*.
You will never get more players if you refuse to change gameplay elements just because the angry mob on the forums disagrees.
10/06/2016 10:18 AMPosted by Dayvie
we haven’t see any alarming issues brought up

Seriously? Tempest cheeses are horribly game breaking. This stupid ability needs to go, make the tempest a long range unit that can snipe off ground units WHILE being suceptible to units like vikings. Make the tempest TRADE.

And the cyclone still is in a bad place. TvT is a campfest straight into air comps because there is no ground mech AA. Thors get trashed by tanks and liberators, therefore air dominance solely relies on viking+raven which in turn, means you can get ground dominance with liberators. CYLONE NEEDS STRONG AA. Having TvT devolve into a stupid viking/raven/libs vs viking/raven/libs from the moment both opponents land a third IS NOT FUN IN ANY WAY. Especially if you want to buff the seeker missile.

About protoss, take a look at the MSC and overcharge. We still have shooting supply that can be used offensively in this game, which is absolutely idiotic.
I'd rather play against hardened shield immortal with mech than tempests that can storm your mineral line within 5 minutes from game start.
Cyclone is early game cancer especially in tvt and is useless lategame. It may be strong early game but it falls off later into game, much like the reaper. At least old cyclone had midgame purpose. I really don't see why they changed it to current state. I'd dare say old cyclone (current patch) had more uses and niche than current one.

Mech still heavily lacks means of anti air from ground even with thor change (pitiful dps and slow). With interceptor change reducing cost to 5 mineral, there isn't really ways for mech player to deal with carriers
Hi Dayvie, thank you for the update :)

I've been a Plat/Diamond Protoss since 2010 and have enjoyed the way the game has changed over the last 6 years. One thing i get discouraged by though, is the lack of positive changes Protoss has gotten in the last few patches. This multiplayer redesign is awesome and i appreciate all your work on it, but its hard not to feel like us Protoss players got the short end of the stick. Terran gets redesigned mech, Zerg gets some healthy changes like the Hydra and Baneling buffs, but Protoss (in my opinion) hasnt gotten anything too exciting to look forward to. Honestly, it has even come to the point where i dont know why i would play the test map, since i really only get the zealot buff , the carrier buff, the tempest ability and the DT blink ability.

Rather than simply complain, I would like to list my suggestions to get Protoss players feeling excited about the redesign:

Shield Battery - I'll be honest, i have no idea how you can implement this and keep it balanced, but it seems like most of the community likes this suggestion. Whether this comes with a Mothership Core nerf, or you make them really weak, i think it would be really exciting to see shield batteries used in competitive play again.

Dragoon - I absolutely love using the Dragoon in Campaign and Co-Op and think this could be the missing link in Protoss diversity that has been talked about recently. I think it could work like this:
- Cost 150/75 from the robotics facility
- Build time should be quicker than the immortal, but not fast enough that you can mass them quickly in the early game
- Has same stats as co-op version, with the same upgrades for range and health at the twilight council or robotics support bay.

My thought process here is that Protoss doesnt have very good anti air in the early/mid game if they choose to go robo tech. I love opening robo, but it makes me feel like i could die to a muta switch or mass pheonix too easy. You can tech to templar, but thats a long wait before you get enough blink stalkers, archons or storm to counter a big swell of pheonix or muta. I also feel like a big part of PvT these days is keeping the liberator count down, which makes me feel like i need to rush to blink every game, while also making sure i dont die to a big bio push/drop. The Dragoon in Co-op isnt too powerful, and if you can only build them from the robo, i dont think they would get massed or abused too easily. You would also have to make a big decision on whether to tie up your extremely valuable robotics production time to build this so-so unit. I would hope that it would fill the role as a last minute anti air option to add a little extra firepower and health to our very fragile early/mid game armies.

Thank you for all you do Mr. Kim. You continue to keep Starcraft fresh and in a good state. I really appreciate all your efforts.

To my other fellow Protoss; lets get a positive discussion going on how we can change up Protoss for the better!
10/06/2016 12:38 PMPosted by Duffman
To my other fellow Protoss; lets get a positive discussion going on how we can change up Protoss for the better!

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