Cyclone

General Discussion
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Thanks for all the feedback this week everyone. We want to circle back about the Cyclone.

As many of you have been pointing out, pros have started using this unit more often and it looks to be going to a good place. From your feedback, it sounds like most of you are curious to see what will develop instead of rebooting the unit. Making a call on what's best is tough here, because as we mentioned, we don't quite know what new meta pros may find for the Cyclone.

It sounds like the verdict is to wait - and we're okay with that, but we want to make sure that's what we all want.

Please let us know, and we'll make the necessary adjustments. Thanks!
I think making a unit working within a meta or 'when the pros' use it is flawed, as we have seen, at different skill levels units have completely different impacts (marine/ultra at masters level vs platinum and lower).

IMO, the changes will take time to equillibrate into 'the new meta', however once it does, we will likely be in a similar position we are now, where people are tired of 'forced' options that the meta pushes on you.

I know its not a solution, or terribly helpful, simply an issue I see with this.
The current (non test) Cyclone is seeing a lot of use in pro matches in TvP. Don't change it at all.
Shortest thread title from Dayvie, ever.
Imo the unit's problem is that it doesn't really have any kind of role outside of a the few gimmicky uses, I wouldn't be quick to rule out a reboot of the Cyclone tbh as its pretty much dead weight after the early game. If you're going to keep it how it is now it'd have to be cheaper and not 4 supply tbh.

It may sound a bit radical but I think it may be a good idea to play around with two possible ideas for rebooting the unit in case you do reboot it, my suggestion is one possible approach being a factory base anti air unit that mech really needs or an alternative where it becomes a factory base spell caster.

To give an example if we go the AA route it could be made to attack air only but buffed against air unit that way it can serve as a AA unit for mech terrans who go factory based mech. If we go the spellcaster route it could have Lock On and a few other spells but no standard attack much like the Raven, this would allow the prospect of not only adding some new possible diversity in strats and comps but could also be used to solve other problems with Terran as well as give the unit a role in the game. I'm leaning more towards the Spellcaster currently tbh.
i think the current live version cyclone is cool because its good for early game defense because of the lock on and the AA.

long time we thought that would be its only purpose. get one or two of them for early defense and thats it.

recently we saw innovation using the cyclone as a real opening unit in TvT early game combined with blueflame hellions. a timing push.

a really cool opening into a mech transition.

but still, the cyclones use is very limited outside of early game.

i would personally love to have a cyclone which is cheaper, has no lock on and is specialized in long range GtA single target dmg.

i would like to have some kind of "anti air hellbat"

a cheap unit which can be made to supplement a mech army if it lacks anti air.

a unit like this would especially help in TvT because liberators are so strong that air control is often the key to victory which leads to turtle gameplay.
My contribution to this subject is as follows: we NEED a reliable and fast AA unit for Mech players and the live Cyclone does well in this job. On the other hand, Test Map Cyclone is very good at trading and giving some map control for Mech players. Also, Cyclone on live is being somewhat abused on cheeses due to how powerful Lock on is. Another problem with live Cyclone (and the Reaper, please fix the unit and remove Grenade) is that they are useless after the early game All ins that the pros are using constantly lately.

In my opinion, the best solution for the Blizzard team, would be a mix of the two versions of the Cyclone. Mech desperately needs a quick AA (live Cyclone) and a unit to promote some aggression and map control (test Cyclone).

In order to achieve that I suggest to:
- Maintain the same unit cost and ability to be reactored;
- Lock on should ONLY target Air units for 400 damage over 14 seconds (same as live);
- Remove the damage upgrade for Lock on, otherwise damage output against Air would be too high;
- Set Cyclone's health to something around 150~160 (more HP than live and less than Test Map);
- Let Cyclone damage against Ground units stay as it is on Test or slightly lower;
- Cyclone's movement speed should be the same as it is on Test Map which has been working well and prevents abusive uses of Lock on.

With these suggestions I've made, I believe that the Cyclone will be a reliable AA unit for Mech (Thor is not nearly enough AA for Mech and WM are too gimmicky) while also being viable for aggression and map control. The Cyclone WILL BE kinda in the middle of the road between Live and Test.

I hope someone from Community Management pass my feedback and suggestions to the Blizzard Development Team. Thank you very much.

To finish, here's the link to another constructive feedback thread made by cousinjoe regarding the Cyclone: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20749706919
Thanks Seizon for the link to my other thread

To Dayvie:
With all due respect, test maps are the place to be innovative and try new things out. The Cyclone's been out for a year and the time to wait and see has passed. Terran gameplay is stale and predictable (hence only 2 Terrans going to Blizzcon, the ones that just execute the predicatable strats so amazingly well)

If you truly want to give Mech a chance to succeed (especially aggressive Mech and not Turtle Mech), give Terran an early mobile dedicated AA as I and others have suggested (eg. switch the Tornado Blaster to short-range AA and Lock-on to long-range anti-ground). The test map is a perfect chance to test this out. Hey if it fails, it fails (I don't think it will) but at least you can say you tried.
To be honest, the unit should just be scrapped... the core design of the unit will always make it either weak/niche or overpowered and massed. But if you're asking which version of the unit is better for the game the answer is assuredly the live version.
Translation: "Terran is not allowed to be buffed, ever. Deal with it losers, are you the lead balance designer? Didn't think so."
In both the PTR and the current game, my biggest issue is what am I building it for. What role is this unit meant to fill that it does better than other units?

In the live version, the cyclone is supposed to snipe high priority targets, which it seems to do okay at with my bio play, but they are incredibly fragile and it is hard to add many of them. The PTR version is strong and accessible but I feel like I am building them just to build them and not as a response to a situation (they seem to not scale very well to be core).

Quite honestly, I don't know which one is better from the games I have played on both the live and PTR versions. I feel like they both have their share of issues.
Change the current cyclone's lock on so it can only lock armored units would be a great buff to the mid and late game, otherwise the instability of this unit would just be enormous
For a 4 supply 120 hp unit it can get too easily overran by zerglings and do too little damage as its autocasted ability will only be wasted on small units
The cyclone needs to be a cheap, mobile anti-air mech unit, period. I don't know how many more people need to say this until you understand that if you want mech players to move out on the map the composition needs a mobile ground-to-air unit that can complement tanks, hellbats, and the largely useless thors. Essentially mech needs a goliath-like unit otherwise you will be forced to turtle because air units absolutely obliterate mech, forcing you to tech up to air yourself.

If you want to keep the design of the current one, you need to reduce its cost, supply, remove lock-on, and focus its damage on reliable anti-air (and depending on these changes make it reactorable or not).

Can you please tell us how you have been testing changes to the cyclone internally and why you have yet to mention mech's need for mobile anti-air? What is the evidence from your internally testing of the Test Map showing you?
10/17/2016 05:17 PMPosted by Player
Translation: "Terran is not allowed to be buffed, ever. Deal with it losers, are you the lead balance designer? Didn't think so."


New Cyclone isn't even a buff... The unit is easily hardcountered by Lurkers, Siege Tanks or Sentry Guardian Shields. It's practically useless except maybe for drops and it can't even be stutter stepped.

Let's not complain about non-issues.

I personally have always promoted to keep the old Cyclone.

10/17/2016 03:55 PMPosted by BoneApart
I think making a unit working within a meta or 'when the pros' use it is flawed, as we have seen, at different skill levels units have completely different impacts (marine/ultra at masters level vs platinum and lower).

IMO, the changes will take time to equillibrate into 'the new meta', however once it does, we will likely be in a similar position we are now, where people are tired of 'forced' options that the meta pushes on you.

I know its not a solution, or terribly helpful, simply an issue I see with this.


No idea what the point of your rambling is or if you just like to hear yourself talk.

If the unit is being used in the meta then it just means that the unit is effective and worth using. Not balancing around the meta is an incredibly stupid suggestion.
I would like to put my ideas out there:

> Ground lock-on range reduced to 8 from 13(To help fight off Pylon Overcharge particularly from Pylon rush strategies.)
> Supply decreased from four to three (Too supply heavy and the unit is already large enough to make death balling too bad of an idea.)
> Life increased from 120 to 150 to increase their utility with a composition so they might help handle Ultralisks with bio support.

Tech Lab and Reactor requirements I won't touch on.
First, thx for the making separate discussion page for Cyclone.
I like the health, population, and normal attack system of new cyclone, but
I like the movement speed, ground lock skill, and air lock skill damage of current cylone.
Hope you combine all the goodies together.
please lower base damage by 2...
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20743084130

It's not flashy, it doesn't have any abilities, jetpacks or 'wow-factor.'

It just works. And it works well.

It's what mech needs.
SC2 is not about Pros at all even there is no Esport in this game it can still running very very well if u develop it in the right way that it should be for all player not "all pros" becuase pros does not play Every style u only see only build that they forced to do and then u balance it from that?

no one see mech no one see any kind of late game except PvP becuase disruptor balls that make players can't engage to each other the whole game

pro matches is not all of gameplay that u can use them to balance the game watch GM player that play mech or even bio agianst zerg late game is not balance or even PvZ late game that zerg have no option to play agianst mass tempest mass carrier.

talk to people that play the game not watch pro then balance it please

and community is not doing negativity things we just said the truth that happen in every game. if u gonna ignore it becuase it hurt your feeling but its the truth so everyone will soon quit the game.

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