Community Feedback Update - December 20

General Discussion
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I will like to see some upgrades or changes in Protoss, maybe some changes only will help in some strategies but may this will create some new ones:

-Split Charge in 2 different upgrades, Move Speed and Charge and each one cost 100/100 and take 50 seconds (remember actual Charge take 100 seconds and cost 200/200)
-Reduce the cost of Extented Thermal Lance to 150/150, remember Colossus in lotv is much less powerful than in hots.
-Change the shield/life balance in Stalker and Adept, from 80/80 to 70/90 (shield/life) in Stalker and from 70/80 to 60/90 (shield/life) in Adept, this will allow to take advantage of armor upgrade.
-Return the vision to the Adept's Shade but lower the damage against light to only 20, this will help Adept not be able to kill Drones so fast in early-game but if the shield/life ratio is not changed in Adept and Stalker the protoss could be very weak for this change.
-Stalkers should have a little increase of damage, actually they are 10 normal and 14 armored, just change this to 11-12 normal and 15 armored may help to resist big and fast change compositions without alter the game if the Adept's light damage is lowered.
-The Sentry should have the same move speed as Adept.
-Immortal barrier should last the same as the attack speed of the tank in siege mode, otherwise it is useless the barrier
Cyclone

I think in Innovation vs Dark (IEM gyennogi), even when dark won, hellbat cyclone early pushes looked too powerful.

Look at the game in habitation station, where Dark made the best defense of all 5 games against the 6-8 hellbat 6-8 cyclone push. Dark delayed his upgrades by a huge amount, took all 4 gases delaying economoy and made a solid number of roach ravager. He then pulled ALL 5 queens from all his bases to make his best defense possible. He saved a lot of energy for transfuses and used ALL the transfuses available. He made the best defense that I've seen and he still traded cost inefficently (he lost 6 roaches, 1 ravager and 2 queens for 8 hellions, then the cyclones just backed away)

You see, to stop that push you have to first scout it, then delay upgrades, pull queens, delay economy and you still can't trade evenly?!

Also the terran risks nothing by doing that push, is a VERY safe pressure build that allows the terran to set the tempo and rythm of the game in a way that can't be countered effectively. As a zerg tho you do take a risk by doing Dark's defense cause the terran can just skip the last 2 cyclones and get earlier double armory, followed by safety tank for easy early defense.

Please watch the strongness of this unit during early game in TvZ carefully. And as a sidenote, remember you already nerfed all zerg Hive units (nerfed vipers, nerfed ultras, nerfed broodlords) while buffing late game mech (buffed tanks on lategame where meditanks are not a thing and buffed ravens). I can't tell if there is something op here or not, I'm just asking to PUT ATTENTION to that.
12/20/2016 11:17 AMPosted by JorgeCis
I think the small changes during the off-season was fine since the balance wasn't expected to be perfect. But going forward, I think it's better to try them somewhere since even small changes can have a big impact.

Happy holidays, looking forward to reading these again early next year!


Was going to post exactly this (be careful with the small changes, you have to make 99.9% sure it won't have big impact if you want to accelerate the process).
The reason innovation's mech looked strong was because Dark is unfamiliar playing vs mech like the rest of the zerg players. Innovation and gumiho got crushed on their stream badly by Byul when playing mech multiple times.

Mech is the same as before with a better timing push, but when hive tech zerg comes out mech is still very weak in lategame.
Cyclone

I think in Innovation vs Dark (IEM gyennogi), even when dark won, hellbat cyclone early pushes looked too powerful.

Look at the game in habitation station, where Dark made the best defense of all 5 games against the 6-8 hellbat 6-8 cyclone push. Dark delayed his upgrades by a huge amount, took all 4 gases delaying economoy and made a solid number of roach ravager. He then pulled ALL 5 queens from all his bases to make his best defense possible. He saved a lot of energy for transfuses and used ALL the transfuses available. He made the best defense that I've seen and he still traded cost inefficently (he lost 6 roaches, 1 ravager and 2 queens for 8 hellions, then the cyclones just backed away)

You see, to stop that push you have to first scout it, then delay upgrades, pull queens, delay economy and you still can't trade evenly?!

What does the terran even risk doing this? He gets early hellions which put him safe against speedling allins. We know he is also safe against roach ravager rushes cause we saw Dark vs Innovation on daybreak. So terran risks nothing doing this push, you can't really counter it effectively, and he is bound to trade well and probably end up ahead in upgrades, innovation did in all 5 games.

As a zerg on the other hand, you do risk something by doing Dark's defense. You risk that the Terran might just skip the last 2 cyclones and instead throw double armory and keep producing workers. He can then get a siege tank in the highground later and good luck trying to punish him for rushing the armory and economy.

Please watch the strongness of this unit during early game in TvZ carefully. And as a sidenote, remember you already nerfed all zerg Hive units (nerfed vipers, nerfed ultras, nerfed broodlords) while buffing late game mech (buffed tanks on lategame where meditanks are not a thing and buffed ravens). I can't tell if there is something op here or not, I'm just asking to PUT ATTENTION to that.


You are right WhosJohnGalt, in PvT is the same problem, and now Protoss don't have scout early different than probes. It was strange that there is no little nerf to cyclone, we all saw the problems with cyclone in the tournament. Cyclones can destroy extremely fast a building, 4 cyclones can destroy a Nexus/Hatchery/CC in 10 seconds and 2 cyclones in 20 seconds, this doesn't give any time to save the estructures but this isn't a problem for Terran because they can up their buildings. Use photon overcharge is very hard because the pylon is destroyed very fast and the only protoss unit that has the speed move like cyclone is the stalker and this unit is weak against cyclone :/ All we know Cyclone is too powerful right now in TvP and TvZ, especially in early game.
Stop ignoring the problem of declining Protoss players. http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=4
12/20/2016 04:15 PMPosted by Menro
Cyclone

I think in Innovation vs Dark (IEM gyennogi), even when dark won, hellbat cyclone early pushes looked too powerful.

Look at the game in habitation station, where Dark made the best defense of all 5 games against the 6-8 hellbat 6-8 cyclone push. Dark delayed his upgrades by a huge amount, took all 4 gases delaying economoy and made a solid number of roach ravager. He then pulled ALL 5 queens from all his bases to make his best defense possible. He saved a lot of energy for transfuses and used ALL the transfuses available. He made the best defense that I've seen and he still traded cost inefficently (he lost 6 roaches, 1 ravager and 2 queens for 8 hellions, then the cyclones just backed away)

You see, to stop that push you have to first scout it, then delay upgrades, pull queens, delay economy and you still can't trade evenly?!

What does the terran even risk doing this? He gets early hellions which put him safe against speedling allins. We know he is also safe against roach ravager rushes cause we saw Dark vs Innovation on daybreak. So terran risks nothing doing this push, you can't really counter it effectively, and he is bound to trade well and probably end up ahead in upgrades, innovation did in all 5 games.

As a zerg on the other hand, you do risk something by doing Dark's defense. You risk that the Terran might just skip the last 2 cyclones and instead throw double armory and keep producing workers. He can then get a siege tank in the highground later and good luck trying to punish him for rushing the armory and economy.

Please watch the strongness of this unit during early game in TvZ carefully. And as a sidenote, remember you already nerfed all zerg Hive units (nerfed vipers, nerfed ultras, nerfed broodlords) while buffing late game mech (buffed tanks on lategame where meditanks are not a thing and buffed ravens). I can't tell if there is something op here or not, I'm just asking to PUT ATTENTION to that.


You are right WhosJohnGalt, in PvT is the same problem, and now Protoss don't have scout early different than probes. It was strange that there is no little nerf to cyclone, we all saw the problems with cyclone in the tournament. Cyclones can destroy extremely fast a building, 4 cyclones can destroy a Nexus/Hatchery/CC in 10 seconds and 2 cyclones in 20 seconds, this doesn't give any time to save the estructures but this isn't a problem for Terran because they can up their buildings. Use photon overcharge is very hard because the pylon is destroyed very fast and the only protoss unit that has the speed move like cyclone is the stalker and this unit is weak against cyclone :/ All we know Cyclone is too powerful right now in TvP and TvZ, especially in early game.


True, but seems that the balance team only pay attention to the terrans whiners... There are so much of them....
12/20/2016 03:30 PMPosted by WhosJohnGalt
Cyclone

I think in Innovation vs Dark (IEM gyennogi), even when dark won, hellbat cyclone early pushes looked too powerful.

Look at the game in habitation station, where Dark made the best defense of all 5 games against the 6-8 hellbat 6-8 cyclone push. Dark delayed his upgrades by a huge amount, took all 4 gases delaying economoy and made a solid number of roach ravager. He then pulled ALL 5 queens from all his bases to make his best defense possible. He saved a lot of energy for transfuses and used ALL the transfuses available. He made the best defense that I've seen and he still traded cost inefficently (he lost 6 roaches, 1 ravager and 2 queens for 8 hellions, then the cyclones just backed away)

You see, to stop that push you have to first scout it, then delay upgrades, pull queens, delay economy and you still can't trade evenly?!

Also the terran risks nothing by doing that push, is a VERY safe pressure build that allows the terran to set the tempo and rythm of the game in a way that can't be countered effectively. As a zerg tho you do take a risk by doing Dark's defense cause the terran can just skip the last 2 cyclones and get earlier double armory, followed by safety tank for easy early defense.

Please watch the strongness of this unit during early game in TvZ carefully. And as a sidenote, remember you already nerfed all zerg Hive units (nerfed vipers, nerfed ultras, nerfed broodlords) while buffing late game mech (buffed tanks on lategame where meditanks are not a thing and buffed ravens). I can't tell if there is something op here or not, I'm just asking to PUT ATTENTION to that.


This 1000 times.

The cyclone-hellbat push is way stronger and safer than the 16 marine drop which was the previous meta. Even when scouted.

TY and Innovation were doing mech before patch 3.8 on some maps and winning against top players. Now they got so many buffs and zergs only nerfs. I understand some changes were needed but !@#$ tanks and cyclones hit so hard. Only option for zerg is defend and defend while rushing nerfed vipers lategame cause tanks hit so freakin hard you can't even consider attacking without disabling their units with spellcasters.

We used to have zergs doing ling roach muta multiprongs in certain maps during HoTS against mech, but with the new mech I doubt that will be viable. You are already forced to spend so much gas on ravagers to defend cyclones, you can only get mutas after defending the pressure and it won't be as strong cause they can have turrets and thors by then, with tanks that hit hard. Maxout, put a few more turrets and kill any zerg that doesn't have vipers ready to greet you in the middle of the map.
Burrow-fungal still alive just like 'Dayvie' Kim ,but game is dead by some GENIUS idea just like this.
Balance aside, I fail to see how Carriers can lead to interesting games. There is no back and forth action with skytoss games. Protoss players sit back and make a Carrier deathball and the game comes down to one engagement that involve almost no micro except Terran/Zerg casting a few spells. I thought LotV was supposed to remove those passive boring styles.
12/20/2016 11:05 AMPosted by Arkitas
and we look forward to working closely together with you next year as well! Happy Holidays and here’s to a great New Year!!

12/20/2016 04:51 PMPosted by plutO
http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=4


................ Yeh.. see ya next year.
- Signed, estranged Protoss player.
12/20/2016 11:16 AMPosted by Crucial
What about a protoss redesign? Reducing the number of protoss abilities? Making core gateway units stronger?

These have been some of the most requested items since SC2 launched as far as I know. I don't even play protoss and I still want them to be seriously updated.


Gateway units are OP early game. They don't need to be stronger.
12/20/2016 12:22 PMPosted by Seizon


Carriers:
This unit is balanced. The only problem is it's abusive use where the Protoss player sends Interceptors while kiting forever, making very difficult for the opponent to kill Carriers while Interceptors deal immense damage output. My suggestion to fix that is by putting the Interceptors maximum effective range in 10, coming back to the Carrier if they get more far.


So basicaly,by drastically cutting the leash range from 14 to 10,you propose to get rid of what makes the Carrier what it is and what it has been for the last 17 years.
Im so sick of Terran and Zerg players,telling us Protoss,how our race should be designed.
Any word from the team on Stukov's state? Haven't had a coop dev update in months
In my low level of play I'm not seeing quite as much burrowed infestors as I might expect. At IEM almost every fungal dark made vs terran was a "dream fungal". Fungal was really the main difference between Dark vs Byun Blizzcon and Dark vs Byun IEM... However neither Byun or Innovation were willing to invest in detection.

My issue with fungal is that there was always a trade off to being in burrowed mode (typically that you can't attack) but infestors are now the one unit that there is absolutely no reason to unburrow once you have researched it. Dark would never actually take his infestors out from under the ground, which I think should me necessary depending on the situation.

There are some ways we can make sure that burrowed key isn't used once and then completely forgotten about for the rest of the infestor's life. One way of doing this might be to mak burrowed movement speed substantially slower than above ground movement (either nerf burrowed movement speed, buff above ground speed, or both). Another thought I briefly considered was only allowing infestor energy to build up when the unit is not burrowed, essentially forcing them to come up every so often. This wouldn't have much effect on planned attacks/harassment with infestors or defense if the infestor player sees the attack coming. However it does gives the other player more of a chance to spot the infestors briefly if the defending player was not ready ahead of time.

I'm biased toward terran (my main race) but I think it is generally agreed that infestors cause the biggest issue for terran because of the mobile detection options in the game. It's just not as viable for terran to put a tech lab on a starport and make a raven as it is for protoss to make observers and zerg to make overseers. Ravens are a really costly unit to make and mess up your starport infrastructure if they weren't part of your strategy going into the game. I think given some time though terran players will be forced to get better at spotting the small trail burrowed units make while moving. We're just not consciously used to looking for it yet like we do for the shimmer of observers or other cloaked units.

Edit: Wow this was a really long post just to brainstorm two small not very well thought out ideas... :P
Reaper - make the grenade an upgrade w/ tech lab with same stats as Concussive Shells.

Hydralisk - 10 hp upgrade at Hydra Den, unlockable at hive tech. 100/100 cost and 90 seconds to research.

Carrier - Revert Interceptor cost to 25 minerals but reduce Carrier build time to 105 seconds.

Infestors - Remove burrowed Fungal Growth but buff Infested Terrans slightly to compensate.

Archons - I'd love to see some kind of splash dmg increase upgrade at Templar Archives.
12/20/2016 08:36 PMPosted by Velitey
Balance aside, I fail to see how Carriers can lead to interesting games. There is no back and forth action with skytoss games. Protoss players sit back and make a Carrier deathball and the game comes down to one engagement that involve almost no micro except Terran/Zerg casting a few spells. I thought LotV was supposed to remove those passive boring styles.


It was but then protoss complained they have to actually be active in order to be any good.
12/20/2016 11:05 AMPosted by Arkitas
The other thing we wanted to discuss is the fact that the faster turn-around for smaller balance changes (during balance testing as well as during the off season) turned out much better than we had expected. Therefore, we wanted to get your thoughts on a potential change to our balance process.


Faster balance and DESIGN changes is what this game really needs. You need to take a few notes from your colleagues in heroes of the storm.

Leaving imba comps reign supreme for months or even years at an end is what doomed the multiplayer ladder to begin with. The faster you react and fix your own stupid and obvious mistakes, the better.

You are going into the new year with a huge mess on your hands, and I hope you will at least pretend that you want to fix all the game issues.
Everyone who is telling us that the hydra is in a good spot, probably have never played a zerg on platinum of upper level. The hydras are not in a good spot, they are far from a core unit. And the speed buff made them nothing but a better defending unit. A pretty expensive defensive unit, that's why they are not in a good spot.
Objective: Make protoss only 10% of starcraft 2 players.

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