Community Update - Test Map Changes & Reapers

General Discussion
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Balance Test Map
First off, we wanted to give a big thanks to everyone who participated in testing and provided feedback on the balance test map. We are leaning towards finalizing the below changes:

Terran

Widow Mine
  • Splash damage +shield bonus reduced from +40 to +25.

Zerg

Hydralisk
  • Health increased from 80 to 90.

Corruptor
  • Movement speed changed from 4.1343 to 4.725.
  • Acceleration speed changed from 3.675 to 4.2.
  • Parasite Spore weapon damage point changed from .1193 to .0446.

Assuming that no issues arise, we’ll implement these changes in an upcoming patch.

Reaper Openers in TvZ
We have been keeping an eye on Reaper openings in the TvZ matchup and we think some tweaks may be needed here to keep Terran from gaining too much advantage in the early game. We are currently thinking that the offensive capabilities of the unit could be reduced a bit, and that changes to the KD8 Charge ability would be a good way to accomplish this. Some options that we have discussed are increasing the cooldown of the ability, or changing the ability to no longer damage structures to increase the effectiveness of static defense options. As always, let us know your thoughts. Ideally this change should be minor enough that we won’t need to add it to the balance test map and can be pushed straight to live.
without necessarily nerfing the base damage, KD8 could no longer blow away units that aren't light. it would still be effective against lings and at harassing workers, but queens wouldn't be bounced away from the ramp and/or investing in an early roach warren would give a better counter
For the reaper, I like the longer cooldown so that it won't be spammed as much. I don't like the damage to structure removal because sometimes I'm on defense and it's helpful when I'm getting rushed.
could also slow reaper's turn rate. that or some kind of grenade nerf is good
Well if your goal it to kill off mech once and for all these changes are perfect.

Widow mine splash is the only thing keeping keeping mech together in TvP. Without strong widow mines it is not possible to protect your tanks. Hellbats are not strong enough against adepts to prevent them from just shading on top of your tanks and kill them all. Widow mines is the core support unit in TvP, and mech is already underperforming in that matchup.

Stronger Hydra will make mech games even worse while only having a slight impact vs bio. This change will move mech from rarely seen to completely extinct, while just influencing ZvT bio a little bit.

So if the goal is to send a clear message: "You shall not play mech!" I would say this is close to the perfect patch.
People have been asking for a long time to just remove the grenade altogether. It doesnt make any sense why you give a tier one unit splash damage and a knockback. Maybe revert to the old reaper that did bonus dmg vs buildings instead of the grenade.
Like a whole lot of people already proposed: set a limit to the use of the grenades! Give each Reaper 1-3 non-refillable (!) KD8 Charges.
Good changes overall, but ,If you really want to make mech viable,you should take a look at the Swarm Host.Every single Terran that plays mech has said multiple times that SH completely kill the composition and there's no answer to this unit.
Happy to see the reaper being nerfed,finally.
Remove the knockback effect and increase the damage from the granades instead i think that might be cool :)
02/23/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Balance Team
Splash damage +shield bonus reduced from +40 to +25.

Mark my words ! This change will make pro level TvP unplayable.
02/23/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Balance Team
Health increased from 80 to 90.

Why would you buff an already strong unit ? It just doesn't make any sense at all.
02/23/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Balance Team
Movement speed changed from 4.1343 to 4.725.

So now you can't even try to play mech... Nice feature, im looking forward to it. I thought you wanted to make mech viable ? Why do you constantly nerf mech, even though it's not even viable yet. Shouldn't you focus on nerfing stuff that is too strong !?
You buff corruptor's even though the real problem is skytoss. Corruptor's are already a very strong unit.
It feels like you don't even play your own game.

I'm really disappointed with this update.

You don't keep your promise blizzard ! ---> https://youtu.be/50_g35pOo60?t=41s

"These changes should make mech not only viable, but compelling"

Yea... i see. Very compelling, getting wrecked by basically everything zerg has to offer.

It's just amazing how every update is another punch in the face.
Speaking from a Zerg standpoint, I think the hydra change is fine, it is a bit of a no brainer but both the corruptor and the hydra change are still not going to stop skytoss from being still incredibly strong.

The way I see it even with this patch in place storm, void ray and archon are still the core things which counter all Zerg anti air. Void rays rip through corruptors, archon does well against any clumps and storm just makes hydra completely useless but also isn't bad against corruptors either.

The fact is we just don't have enough tools. Make hunter killers, a T3 upgrade for hydra that morphs them from light to normal and that gives them buffs to HP and a little buff to damage. Make the hydra relevant late game. With more HP we can attack interceptors better and have them actually be a legitimate anti-air threat. Also having just a good unit to add to any composition will help Zerg late game even in ZvT which is going pretty poorly recently as well if you follow GSL.
02/23/2017 10:52 AMPosted by Cantrix
Remove the knockback effect and increase the damage from the granades instead i think that might be cool :)


Wouldn't actually be the opposite much better ?

What's so interesting about a cheesy unit that has very high dps ? wouldn't it be much cooler to see a bigger micro potential with grenades ? (aka keep knockback, but reduce or even remove damage of grenade)
Could we bring back the bug from the LOTV Beta where KD8 charges would destroy eachother if placed too close in proximity? This would mean spamming the KD8 would punish the reaper user, but well placed mines in the hand of a good player could be useful (giving room for more micro on both sides?)

A cooldown increase sounds okay, but I still don't know if I understand the design behind the KD8 charge and what it/the reaper's role is supposed to be. Is it supposed to be a tickle harass? Because if so, it's hard to make it a worthwhile tickle harass without enabling snowballing as we see with the reaper now. I think an easy limitation to this would be to give a reaper a maximum number of charges to the KD8, and maybe allow for more grenades to be purchased through minerals (similar to the vultures in the campaign and their spider mines). This would allow 3 Rax Reaper to remain a strategy, but have a harder limit on the spam-ability, as well as make it more difficult for a 3 rax reaper player to macro out of this opener, as opposed to more greedy openers that force a Zerg player into an all-in response. Some other ideas I have, is perhaps change the turn rate of the reaper, or heavily lower the acceleration in general or after the use of a KD8 charge. A change in this direction, or similar, would give the defending player more opportunities for surrounds or reinforcement/response to reapers spamming grenades. I feel a cooldown change isn't very interesting, even if it can potentially fix the problem with early reaper play, there is room to make the reaper and its KD8 charge a more interesting unit.

Has anyone put thought into potential with the KD8 in later stages of the game? For example, turning the KD8 into a small EMP charge that takes away small amounts of energy, or shields. Perhaps a cheap upgrade (maybe 50/50? Anything too much higher would see it unused) on the Barracks Tech Lab to change the KD8 into a permanent, uncloaked mine that deals more damage once units walk in range of it. This would be a nice way for a couple reapers to remain on the map as a means of map control in a different way than Hellions would, for bio compositions in all matchups.
Adept/Phoenix is very strong and its counter is the widow mine. I think it's an awful idea to flirt with repeating history with a widow mine nerf like this. It boggles my mind that you're risking this again.
I feel like the Corrupter change will do more to help in ZvT than ZvP, to be honest. Sure it helps micro out of storms faster (probably the most important change) but I'm not sure it will be enough.
Im glad to see something being done with reapers. I think the easiest solution is to increase the cooldown timer of the grenade, but this is easily testable. Other changes here are steps in the right direction, particularly the widow mine nerf. What worries me, however, is the zerg buffs. These are done in order to counteract carriers but these changes will most likely come with other side effects. Having a buffed hydra will make protoss ground units even less effective at dealing with hydras than they already were, and with a buff to corruptor effectiveness collosus will most likely not see any hope of a return in the matchup. This leaves protoss with disruptor or storm based compositions for their aoe. This is extremely limiting on their available ground army choices, so what would have been really nice to see is a reduction in the effectiveness of carriers and an increase in effectiveness of ground armies to compensate. This will also make terran mech based compositions less effective since hydras and corruptors were zergs way of dealing with siege tanks or ravens/vikings. Still we will see where these changes take the balance.

What I really would like to see here is more of a willingness to buff protoss units. There is no problem giving hydras hp buff, but things like the 14 damage stalker are not being considered at all. Zerg should be in a much better spot after this, and terran will most likely continue to stay in a solid spot, but protoss will most likely continue to struggle, although it is possible zealot archon compositions could see a return in pvt. Either way, it would be great to see these changes implemented asap so we can see if any other changes need to be implemented.
Parasite Spore weapon damage point changed from .1193 to .0446.

What does this mean? Parasite spore is the main air-to-air weapon of corruptor, and its damage is 14+6 massive.
02/23/2017 10:03 AMPosted by Balance Team
We have been keeping an eye on Reaper openings in the TvZ matchup and we think some tweaks may be needed here to keep Terran from gaining too much advantage in the early game.
R.I.P Byun.
I'm a (masters 3) Terran Player and I like the reaper changes

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