Community Update - October 5

General Discussion
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10/05/2017 12:59 PMPosted by Sparkuling
Ghosts are worse than before with the new change. Its only better for proxy cheese now.. the new change makes no !@#$ing sense if you want to see more mid-game ghost usage.


I agree. We already have more than enough cheeses in the game. Ghost should be better for mid game.
10/05/2017 01:30 PMPosted by Valma
10/05/2017 11:14 AMPosted by Velitey
A Bunker takes 29 seconds to build and Terran players use it for defense all the time and also offensively... you are overreacting.


Yeah Bunkers are OP and it is imperative to nerf the Bunker Building Time ASAP


Wow, reading comprehension really isn't your strength. I just meant that since the S. Battery fills a similar role to the Bunker, it makes sense on paper to have a build time that is similar... the Bunker does its job well and it should be the same for the Battery. If it is too weak numbers can be tweaked.

To follow through on this topic... What's funny is that the people complaining about that nerf are probably the same players that complain about Protoss relying too heavily on gimmicks and that Protoss isn't fun™. Now that the balance team nerfs those said gimmicks in an attempt to improve the game, Protoss players complain. It may not be perfect, but moving away from gimmicks and frustrating aspects of Protoss was probably the single most supported design change objective for SC2... supported by both Protoss and non-Protoss... Or so I thought before the changes aimed at tackling this actually went on public testing...
10/05/2017 01:34 PMPosted by Fluxior
10/05/2017 01:07 PMPosted by Flack
Disruptions are buffed not nerfed...its much easier to control now and cooldown is shorter much shorter. It is very close to the bw reaver right now with free and stronger scarabs. This is huge in terms of multitasking.


LOL, I'm sorry but you have to be blind to not see this as a nerf. The disruptor is already not used a lot, and now it will be gone.


You present a very convincing argument.
The cyclone still has no role in the game with this patch :
- TvZ : cyclone production is too expansive to be maintained, because of the other threats you have to face. The only way to play cyclone is with a 2 bases 2 reactored factories semi-allin. Outside from that, hydra compositions (the go-to anti mech comps) make the cyclone irrelevant.
- TvP : the new stalker makes the cyclone simply horrible. Cyclones were already unreliable against guardian shield, but now that even stalkers perform very well against cyclones, there is no way to use cyclones in mech comps outside of allins.
- TvT : cyclones are both terrible against bio units (because of medivac heal, they take forever to kill a single marine) and against mech (because they get 3 shotted by tanks). No use out of the cyclone except for base defense and early pressure.

The cyclone is an allin unit, and giving it a mid game AA upgrade doesn't change the fact that it sucks past early game cheeses.
- make the cyclone 2 supply, weaper, cheaper, smaller and a little bit faster
- give it a much more reliable DPS
- give it an AA auto attack, with a mid game upgrade to extend range or increase DPS
- make it a soft counter to roaches and stalkers
I'm not a fan of spell casters in RTS but the raven seems to be in the right direction. One problem is raven susceptible to feedback so hard to get spells off. For ghost, I prefer the old snipe (instant-hit but less damage)
10/05/2017 01:07 PMPosted by Flack
Disruptions are buffed not nerfed...its much easier to control now and cooldown is shorter much shorter. It is very close to the bw reaver right now with free and stronger scarabs. This is huge in terms of multitasking.


It's great to kill your own units now. You clearly haven't played the testing map with protoss.
Totally against changes on Shiel battery.
Moving shield battery to cyber tech nullifies the purpose of this structure: help protoss defend in early game.
Early ling timing hit when cyber is at 1/4 of building process, this just mean that shield battery become useless.
Also, can you please explain me why zerg and terrain can have proxy cheese strategy but protoss can't? Why u say it's op if any proxy cheese bring to a win if unscouted?
Honestly I feel this change along with Oracle change are two important killers for protoss strategy diversification. Let shield battery be a gate tech, let protoss cheese and let other races figure it out. It after some time this strategy is a 100% win and op, then u nerf it. But there is no reason to nerf an important structure for a potential good strategy.
10/05/2017 11:14 AMPosted by Velitey
A Bunker takes 29 seconds to build and Terran players use it for defense all the time and also offensively... you are overreacting.


If you consider that you need 18 more seconds to build a pylon that seems very reasonable to have the shield battery build time being lower then one of a bunker but y'know ...
10/05/2017 04:17 PMPosted by KyunG
10/05/2017 11:14 AMPosted by Velitey
A Bunker takes 29 seconds to build and Terran players use it for defense all the time and also offensively... you are overreacting.


If you consider that you need 18 more seconds to build a pylon that seems very reasonable to have the shield battery build time being lower then one of a bunker but y'know ...


Oh my God...

You are always going to have Pylons in position, this is really not a problem at all. This is Protoss 101, the very basics of the race...

Seriously, what I get from Protoss players' attitude is that they actually want their cheese/gimmick builds to stay in the game, despite them saying for years now that they hate having to rely on gimmicks to win...

They complained when the MSC was removed.
They complained when mass Oracles were nerfed.
Now, they complain that their proxy cheese gets nerfed.

The design of Protoss is never going to improve, Protoss players themselves prevent this from happening, although this time the balance team seems to be applying the changes anyways.

10/05/2017 04:08 PMPosted by loeblix
10/05/2017 01:07 PMPosted by Flack
Disruptions are buffed not nerfed...its much easier to control now and cooldown is shorter much shorter. It is very close to the bw reaver right now with free and stronger scarabs. This is huge in terms of multitasking.


It's great to kill your own units now. You clearly haven't played the testing map with protoss.


Actually this is true, I tried the test map and I LOL'd irl when the Protoss I faced destroyed his own units with new Disruptors. This Disruptor is terrible and needs to be massively improved design-wise. Just tweaking numbers won't fix this.
This round of changes are heading in a good direction.
Some people in the forum is just kids have their sweets and try to convince other that sweets bad for teeth
You can either make shield battery available after core, or lengthen its warping time,Im cool with it, but having both of it at same time? R u kidding?
Everytime Protoss have viable strategy, nerf coming shortly after(while only Adept nerf is reasonable). Hydralisks buff make LingBaneHydra composition tough as hell ,crushing other ground forces with only A-move with some simple snipe, yet developers still cool with that.
For the good sake, bring back flying sieged tank and revert Colossus and Tempest to their original stats
The shield battery changes are kind of baffling, the structure is supposed to be a bandaid to fill the same role the MSC did, but by moving it to cyber core tech and massively increasing the build time you've completely defeated the purpose of it?

The way it was pitched was that you'd slap it down at your wall when the early (otherwise game ending) aggression hit and it'd warp in fast enough to keep your units alive longer. While people have already voiced the issues with this design (Giving low-DPS protoss units more staying power doesn't help them kill more units, which is almost the only way to actually beat back early agression) making the shield battery bad at doing that undermines it's purpose in the first place
10/05/2017 04:10 PMPosted by FriendlyProb
Totally against changes on Shiel battery.
Moving shield battery to cyber tech nullifies the purpose of this structure: help protoss defend in early game.
Early ling timing hit when cyber is at 1/4 of building process, this just mean that shield battery become useless.
Also, can you please explain me why zerg and terrain can have proxy cheese strategy but protoss can't? Why u say it's op if any proxy cheese bring to a win if unscouted?
Honestly I feel this change along with Oracle change are two important killers for protoss strategy diversification. Let shield battery be a gate tech, let protoss cheese and let other races figure it out. It after some time this strategy is a 100% win and op, then u nerf it. But there is no reason to nerf an important structure for a potential good strategy.

Here's the thing... on the ladder, Protoss suffer the exact same problem because said timing will hit before the Mothership Core is out, so you need to scout for such a rush and get a couple of Zealots out pronto. This is arguably easier with the new Chrono Boost.

My only argument is that it's probably unnecessary to change the building requirement to Cybernetics Core and increase its build time. Just the building change would have done it, I think.
Id really like to see stalkers get a shield regen spell as well as blink! (10 sec CD -- instantly restores 20 shield and an additional 20 over 5 sec)

This would remove the need for shield battery, and give incentive for people to use stalkers more which is the aim of the game for pToss this update make attacking units early THAT MATTER, it would also give them a chance to win a losing fight and increase micro for stalkers, making them a staple unit again
10/05/2017 06:41 PMPosted by Velitey
10/05/2017 04:17 PMPosted by KyunG
...

If you consider that you need 18 more seconds to build a pylon that seems very reasonable to have the shield battery build time being lower then one of a bunker but y'know ...


Oh my God...

You are always going to have Pylons in position, this is really not a problem at all. This is Protoss 101, the very basics of the race...

Seriously, what I get from Protoss players' attitude is that they actually want their cheese/gimmick builds to stay in the game, despite them saying for years now that they hate having to rely on gimmicks to win...

They complained when the MSC was removed.
They complained when mass Oracles were nerfed.
Now, they complain that their proxy cheese gets nerfed.

The design of Protoss is never going to improve, Protoss players themselves prevent this from happening, although this time the balance team seems to be applying the changes anyways.

10/05/2017 04:08 PMPosted by loeblix
...

It's great to kill your own units now. You clearly haven't played the testing map with protoss.


Actually this is true, I tried the test map and I LOL'd irl when the Protoss I faced destroyed his own units with new Disruptors. This Disruptor is terrible and needs to be massively improved design-wise. Just tweaking numbers won't fix this.


Lets look at the build times
To finish a bunker the build time is 21s (supply depot) + 46s (barracks) + 29s bunker = 96s
To finish a shield battery the build time is 18s (pylon) + 46s (gateway) + 36s (cybernetics core) + 28.6s (shield battery) = 128.6s

Does that add up? I mean Velitey imagine if it took terrans 46.7s more to get out a bunker like what just happened to the shield battery. This is definitely an enormous nerf. It takes like what, thirty seconds for lings to travel across the map? All I can say is that for the protoss players it'll be quite interesting to see if it's possible to defend an early rush without a large commitment towards a really safe build order.

We see here pretty clearly that this change (especially what was done by delaying the shield battery till cybernetics core) forces a protoss player to have 10.7 (additional build time on the battery) + 36 (cybernetics core) = 46.7 second delay to get a shield battery compared to the previous patch. This will result in protoss players needing to chose from a more restrictive build order by being forced into making a cybernetics core and committing 150 more resources more need to be committed before being able to make it.

Overall this will probably result in protoss players having no possible reactive responses to early rushes which they likewise would of had without this patch.
The design of the nexus recall feels too restrictive. The delay has to go, the cooldown is acceptable.

Keeping timewarp as is, when it used to be an already seldomly used spell on the Mothershipcore is an oversight.
Something that helps pushing into a location would be nice, maybe speed up friendly units instead of slowing enemies.
10/05/2017 07:55 PMPosted by daboss
10/05/2017 06:41 PMPosted by Velitey
...

Oh my God...

You are always going to have Pylons in position, this is really not a problem at all. This is Protoss 101, the very basics of the race...

Seriously, what I get from Protoss players' attitude is that they actually want their cheese/gimmick builds to stay in the game, despite them saying for years now that they hate having to rely on gimmicks to win...

They complained when the MSC was removed.
They complained when mass Oracles were nerfed.
Now, they complain that their proxy cheese gets nerfed.

The design of Protoss is never going to improve, Protoss players themselves prevent this from happening, although this time the balance team seems to be applying the changes anyways.

...

Actually this is true, I tried the test map and I LOL'd irl when the Protoss I faced destroyed his own units with new Disruptors. This Disruptor is terrible and needs to be massively improved design-wise. Just tweaking numbers won't fix this.


Lets look at the build times
To finish a bunker the build time is 21s (supply depot) + 46s (barracks) + 29s bunker = 96s
To finish a shield battery the build time is 18s (pylon) + 46s (gateway) + 36s (cybernetics core) + 28.6s (shield battery) = 128.6s

Does that add up? I mean Velitey imagine if it took terrans 46.7s more to get out a bunker like what just happened to the shield battery. This is definitely an enormous nerf. It takes like what, thirty seconds for lings to travel across the map? All I can say is that for the protoss players it'll be quite interesting to see if it's possible to defend an early rush without a large commitment towards a really safe build order.

We see here pretty clearly that this change (especially what was done by delaying the shield battery till cybernetics core) forces a protoss player to have 10.7 (additional build time on the battery) + 36 (cybernetics core) = 46.7 second delay to get a shield battery compared to the previous patch. This will result in protoss players needing to chose from a more restrictive build order by being forced into making a cybernetics core and committing 150 more resources more need to be committed before being able to make it.

Overall this will probably result in protoss players having no possible reactive responses to early rushes which they likewise would of had without this patch.


I guess you didn't even read my other post, where I said specifically that numbers could be tweaked if it's too weak, that's what the test map is for.

Obviously, it is pretty clear using the shield battery for cheese is not what the balance team had in mind if we read this changes log. Considering this it couldn't stay like it was... what do you do ?

Increase build time ? Protoss whine...
Make it start with no energy ? Protoss whine...

There is no getting out of this. Yes, it's a nerf, I understand this is frustrating but at one point you have to actually realize this is testing and this is not competive ladder... Testing meaningful changes on a PTR is something the community really wanted... or so I thought before the test map actually hit lol... The worse thing that could happen is the shield battery is weak for about a week or so until they buff it again in an attempt to make it balanced.
10/05/2017 06:55 PMPosted by Togetic
The shield battery changes are kind of baffling, the structure is supposed to be a bandaid to fill the same role the MSC did, but by moving it to cyber core tech and massively increasing the build time you've completely defeated the purpose of it?

The way it was pitched was that you'd slap it down at your wall when the early (otherwise game ending) aggression hit and it'd warp in fast enough to keep your units alive longer. While people have already voiced the issues with this design (Giving low-DPS protoss units more staying power doesn't help them kill more units, which is almost the only way to actually beat back early agression) making the shield battery bad at doing that undermines it's purpose in the first place


Unfortunately Blizzard is decided to swap one bandaid (MSC) for another (SB) on Protoss instead of fixing the issue which is Gateway training time being longer without Warpgate tech.
Seriously, what I get from Protoss players' attitude is that they actually want their cheese/gimmick builds to stay in the game, despite them saying for years now that they hate having to rely on gimmicks to win...


Yup

10/05/2017 09:45 PMPosted by Seizon
Unfortunately Blizzard is decided to swap one bandaid (MSC) for another (SB) on Protoss instead of fixing the issue which is Gateway training time being longer without Warpgate tech.


SB is probably going to be worse.

Also I knew that cheese would happen but the fact that they are addressing this now as in they didn't see this coming is hilarious to me.

It should of always been considered.

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