Community Update - December Balance Changes

General Discussion
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good suggestion, hero;)
I don't, i talk about terran, coz they still don't use ghosts, even after buffs, so i dont think they will do it with raven.
I am ok with the double oracle nerf. (chrono+build time)

I dislike the stalker changes, because it is a core unit and you force us over and over again to get used to microing it differently.

The disruptor change is confusing, it felt barely playable to me in it's current form. I guess it is another unit that can end a game within a second if the enemy is not paying attention. So basically removing it (by nerfing it as hard as the widowmine) to make the game less frutstrating I am ok with too.

Yeah, let's see how this plays out.
12/07/2017 02:25 PMPosted by IlIlIlIlIlIl
Nerfing Protoss will not make PvZ better. But I like these changes for Terran, PvT will be a lot more balanced now I think.

For PvZ I'd like to see the Overlord drop made more expensive, this makes it so Zergs can't do as much damage early game "for free" essentially. Just like a warp prism costs 200 minerals and requires Robo tech.

The Overlord drop is too strong vs Protoss atm, make it cost 50/50 instead of 25/25 and maybe move the drop tech to either Roach Warren or Lair.


1 overlord drop without speed = 75+50 (125evo chamber ) + 25/25= cost of 2 shield battery.

With speed = cost of 4 shield battery + 50.

You have a cost effective way to counter it.
What's the point reverting only production time of oracle?
If oracle was strong for the 3 min time, and crono is nerfed, just revert all changes to oracle. Oracle just stopped being an harass tool, reverting damage to 2 shot scv and rines will just add more diversity.

While stalker got a little dps nerf vs armored (0.2 points of dps difference) the +1 upgrade bonus will just make stalker useless in late game, again.
Without MSC a good damage output is nedded by stalker in mid/late game with upgrades.

You want to nerf purification nova that is the only way to counter terran 2 base allins? You mad guys.

but most important thing: CRONO NERFED+BATTERY NERF+MSC DEAD= zerg cheese feast. How protoss can defend 12 pool strategies, drops, or proxy strategies by terran? make battery gate tech again, with cb nerfed proxy won't be strong as before.

Honestly I feel protoss is getting again a lot more harder to play, a lot micro intensive, high punishing for every little mistake, high multitask dependant. You are just forcing the majority of players to do 1-2 base strategy for the lack of solid units in early/mid game. Guess gonna start ranking as zerg again....
12/07/2017 02:44 PMPosted by Imperator
12/07/2017 02:25 PMPosted by IlIlIlIlIlIl
Nerfing Protoss will not make PvZ better. But I like these changes for Terran, PvT will be a lot more balanced now I think.

For PvZ I'd like to see the Overlord drop made more expensive, this makes it so Zergs can't do as much damage early game "for free" essentially. Just like a warp prism costs 200 minerals and requires Robo tech.

The Overlord drop is too strong vs Protoss atm, make it cost 50/50 instead of 25/25 and maybe move the drop tech to either Roach Warren or Lair.


1 overlord drop without speed = 75+50 (125evo chamber ) + 25/25= cost of 2 shield battery.

With speed = cost of 4 shield battery + 50.

You have a cost effective way to counter it.


Not really.
Shield battery does not add dps. So, you need to add battery PLUS units costs PLUS gateways cost to produce more units.
It's impossible to hold OL drop off 1 gateway, you need at least 3 producing at least 2 rounds of units.
6 lings will trade extra good vs lonely unit, this make having at least 4-5 units to defend front wall and by OL drop.
Using probes to kill lings in mineral line, even under SB recharge, will just make you loose probes anyway and deplete shield battery.
I'm happy to see the Chrono Boost change go through as was suggested in some threads regarding Protoss early game. It's nice to have the Heart of the Swarm version come back.

Stalker nerf I wasn't sure was necessary since Chrono Boost made it possible to push a number of Stalkers out too soon and a bunker was able to hold a Stalker push if done well. However, I won't argue since I'm just Diamond 2. As long as the Stalker is still better than where it started I'm sure we'll be fine.

The Raven and Widow Mine changes are very much appreciated. For how suicidal the Widow Mine has become, it's really nice to see it become easier to replenish and field. Raven changes look good since Anti-Armor was not worth using that much and Scrambler was honestly a bit underwhelming. Scrambler moving faster should be good for helping bio close in on certain enemies like Tank lines or stopping drops.

I really look forward to these changes.
Good changes :)
Burn that toss filth to the ground let none survive!
Zerg is OP in both ZvP and ZvT but no nerfs? ZvP win rates are probably going to hit 57-58% if not higher.
widowmine still useless.
12/07/2017 02:19 PMPosted by Learning
Now roll the LotV Marauder nerf back to HotS level and we coud come closer to Balance.


If you could not be the epitome of a whiny Terran never being happy unless TvP is at 60% that'd be great.
12/07/2017 01:52 PMPosted by Balance Team
Thanks everyone for all the recent feedback. We appreciate the thoughts and are eager to continue discussions with the topics below.

Protoss

We received feedback that the strength of Chrono Boost may be too strong and it’s allowing units to come out a bit too early. We are looking into reducing the strength of Chrono Boost but increasing the duration. This should help to reduce the ability to rapidly produce a particular unit or upgrade much faster than the opponent or before the opponent can have their own opportunity to respond. Since the effects of Chrono Boost will be reduced, we will most likely revert the Oracle’s build time from 43 seconds back to 37 seconds.

Also, we received feedback that the Stalker feels a bit strong right now due to the Stalker’s base damage value. We would like to try reducing the Particle Disruptor’s damage from 15 (21 vs armored) to 13 (18 vs armored) and decreasing the weapon period from 1.54 to 1.34. Also, the weapon upgrades would receive +1 base and +1 armored damage instead of +2 base damage. This kind of change will generally increase the number of shots it will take for the Stalker to kill various enemy units.

Next, the Disruptor’s Purification Nova might be a bit strong at the moment. In order to provide the opposing player with opportunities for counterplay against the Disruptor’s Purification Nova, we are thinking about adding a 1 second charge up time after activating the ability. Opponents will have a little more time to react to the Purification Nova and this should open up more opportunities for micro. Also, Disruptors in large numbers seem to be able to shoot a constant stream of Purification Novas at their enemy. In order to reduce the number of shots that could be fired in a given period, we want to try increasing the Purfication Nova’s cooldown from 14.3 to 17.9 seconds.

Nexus
  • Chrono Boost strength reduced from 100% to 50% and duration per cast increased from 10 seconds to 20 seconds.

Stalker
  • Particle Disruptors damage reduced from 15 (21 vs armored) to 13 (18 vs armored) and period reduced from 1.54 to 1.34.

  • Weapon upgrade will provide +1 base and +1 armored damage instead of +2 base damage.

Oracle
  • Build time reduced from 43 to 37 seconds.

Disruptor
  • Purification Nova cooldown increased from 14.3 to 17.9 seconds.
  • Purification Nova has a 1 second charge up time.


Terran

The Raven unit hasn’t been used as much as the other units in the Teran arsenal most likely due to its current strength level. We want to increase the Raven’s strength a bit to try and make the unit more viable in matchups. We want to try reducing the Anti-Armor Missile energy cost so that each Raven can fire two Anti-Amor missiles. The Anti-Armor missile lock time seems a bit long right now and the initial delay could be reduced from 2.14 to 1.43 seconds to increase the chances for the ability to connect with the enemy target unit. Also, the Interference Matrix range might be too short right now and Ravens are having difficulty landing the ability on enemy targets. Increasing the range of Interference matrix from 8 to 9 should help the Raven and make it safer to cast on enemy units. Lastly, increasing the Interference Matrix missile speed would also help increase chances for the Interference Matrix to connect with the target.

Next, the Widow Mine’s build time seems like it could be reduced a bit to open up more opportunities for the unit. Reducing the Widow Mine’s build would allow players to build or replenish them faster.

Raven
  • Anti-Armor Missile lock time reduced from 2.14 to 1.43.
  • Anti-Armor Missile energy cost reduced from 125 to 100.
  • Interference Matrix range increased from 8 to 9.
  • Interference Matrix missile mover speed increased by 50%.

Widow Mine
  • Build time reduced from 28.6 to 21.4 seconds.


Multiplayer Map

On Blackpink, possibly adding a jumpable platform to provide Reapers with an entry or exit into the main base locations could help Terran players with scouting.

There are several esports events in the month of December so we would like to target a balance update on December 18th for now. Just to note, the exact values for the balance update may be adjusted and balance update publish date could change as well. Lastly, thanks for your continued feedback and please let us know what you think on the forums or any other community sites!


Good terran changes with the raven and widow mine.

The changes to chrono is good. The stalker and disruptor changes would have to be tested out, but they seem to be in the right direction.
12/07/2017 02:51 PMPosted by FriendlyProb
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1 overlord drop without speed = 75+50 (125evo chamber ) + 25/25= cost of 2 shield battery.

With speed = cost of 4 shield battery + 50.

You have a cost effective way to counter it.


Not really.
Shield battery does not add dps. So, you need to add battery PLUS units costs PLUS gateways cost to produce more units.
It's impossible to hold OL drop off 1 gateway, you need at least 3 producing at least 2 rounds of units.
6 lings will trade extra good vs lonely unit, this make having at least 4-5 units to defend front wall and by OL drop.
Using probes to kill lings in mineral line, even under SB recharge, will just make you loose probes anyway and deplete shield battery.

If the zerg makes units , you want to defend without unit ?
Ehm....what about zerg? All units got buffed but the drone....and it was slightly the better race overall anyway. now protoss nerf,terran buff could balance each other out,but now zerg is even better with that,isn't it?

Also...oracle rushes take 6 seconds longer. Is that enough? It might be with widow mine being earlier,but...i mean is that the response? cause it kinda has to be widow-mine now...the build is one-directional till factory.that's kinda ridiculous to be fair. A must build till 3:30 mins...
Terran changes are good.

Protoss changes on the other hand, not so much. The chronoboost change is great, but other than that, the stalker nerf is a little too harsh, and the disruptor nerf is undeservingly brutal. Furthermore, PvZ is struggling a lot right now, and disruptors and stalkers super important in that match up.
12/07/2017 03:03 PMPosted by Boggyb
Zerg is OP in both ZvP and ZvT but no nerfs? ZvP win rates are probably going to hit 57-58% if not higher.
Yeah, everyone was flipping the tables about TvP winrate at 55% while zerg had 56% in zvp and 54% zvt.
They shouldn't nerf Protoss but only buff Terran. Zerg is already OP against Protoss and that will now only be more.
This Stalker nerf is unacceptable.

The entire point of the Stalker change is now completely moot - the game and players need time to adjust - that is a MAJOR step backwards. It is acceptable for units to "feel strong" we as a community need to adapt to units that "feel strong."

We cannot engineer creative solutions without constraints - this change is entirely premature.

That said, I can empathize with balance concerns - outside of the Stalker revert I can understand the quick adjustments - it's always hard to predict how something that affects production [like Chronoboost] so severely can impact builds and create unintended fluctuations in how a race can find seemingly unfair advantages; but the Stalker change was a change - it needs to marinate a bit. You've dramatically reinvigorated the way Protoss can play, offense will always adapt faster than defense, we need to sit on these changes and see how opponents solve it. This change alone is not so oppressive that it needs to be [cowardly] 'hotfixed' with a happy midground pointless nerf, let's let the players play.

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