Co-op Mission Update - January 17th, 2018

Co-op Missions Discussion
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I think we can all agree that leaderboards are going to be the best feature added to co-op and that would be all the reason to keep playing the mode. This new guy from TL is already very blizzard-like, doesn't like to give updates on features like that or respond to posts.
01/24/2018 04:06 PMPosted by Candy
I think we can all agree that leaderboards are going to be the best feature added to co-op and that would be all the reason to keep playing the mode. This new guy from TL is already very blizzard-like, doesn't like to give updates on features like that or respond to posts.


Ever heard of an NDA?
01/24/2018 04:15 PMPosted by AznHopeful
01/24/2018 04:06 PMPosted by Candy
I think we can all agree that leaderboards are going to be the best feature added to co-op and that would be all the reason to keep playing the mode. This new guy from TL is already very blizzard-like, doesn't like to give updates on features like that or respond to posts.


Ever heard of an NDA?


Ever heard of Riot games? The company that actually does communicate with their players?
And here I was thinking Co-op was dead when I see they have added a very active coop player to dev team

I won’t relist what everyone else has already posted. Just congrats on the job and I hope to see good things happening to Co-op in near future.
Forgot to mention this, as it's extremely minor, but Han and Horner's SCVs cannot be made to abandon what they're building, unlike the other Terran commanders. As in, there's no Halt command.
01/24/2018 07:53 PMPosted by KidRoleplay
Forgot to mention this, as it's extremely minor, but Han and Horner's SCVs cannot be made to abandon what they're building, unlike the other Terran commanders. As in, there's no Halt command.


Ha. Maybe HandH should have a fun death mechanic for scvs? SCV's build faster when friendly units die in combat.

Fits well with there death mechanic. can help mid game building strike fighter platforms quickly.
Fenix
I like Fenix very much and I mostly play a strange composition of Immortal/Colossus/Carrier/Scout/Disruptor that happens to work almost as well as Mass Carriers and is more fun. But I do see that Mass Carriers have a huge advantage in terms of survival, mostly compared to gate units.

Robots being disposable makes sense, but so does robots being repaired.
So here are my suggestions:

  • Give ground units an equivalent to Swann's Immortality Protocol.
  • Make Conservators revive the dead ground units.
  • Units that enter Immortality Protocol are considered dead and do trigger Avenging Protocol.
  • Karax

    I have to agree with the Colossus problem.
    In the way I see it, Colossus take too long and too many resources to happen.

    For a niche unit, you need too much commitment to get them out.
    Make that easier. Suggestions:

  • Make one of the upgrades come with the unit already.
  • OR
  • Cut the cost of Colossus upgrades in half.
  • Han & Horner
    In the way I see it, Reapers are too good to be real. They are one of those units that when hit a critical mass, they become overpowered. From what I see the coop development team seems to have a problem with these kinds of units.
    For Hellions and Hellbats to shine, they need some things.

    These units need to have something to hit air. Their abilities and buffs also don't last long enough. Suggestions:

  • Combine Hellion/Hellbat upgrades to have a maximum of 2 upgrades.
  • Increase duration of death buffs and abilities of these units significantly.
  • Make Tar Bomb pull air units to the ground.
  • As for Strike Fighters, the fact the planes can die is nonsense. The Napalm Upgrade is almost negligible, and the gas cost of the Platform doesn't fit a gas starved commander. Suggestions:

  • Make the napalm upgrade deal actual damage.
  • Remove vulnerability of the planes.
  • Reduce gas cost of the Strike Platform.
  • And as for Horner Units, Horner Units are good, but the limits on making them are excruciating. Exorbitant prices, and cooldowns make them unreliable on long and short term planning. Battlecruisers are also underwhelming, and the lack of a massable horner unit is frustrating. Suggestions:

  • Remove unit cooldown, we are paying for the instant build time with those prices.
  • Let the Battlecruiser upgrade be actually a secondary weapon that shoots at the same time.
  • Halve the prices of the Wraiths, so we can mass at least one Horner unit.
  • Fenix
    I actually kinda like Fenix. Though I do feel that some of his army are a bit... Lacking, to say the least. Especially so with his masteries.
  • Legionnaires: For 160 minerals, they don't do much. I honestly never make these unless I need a spare shell or two for grinding the Champion damage achievement.
    Too much cost for too little reward, especially since Karax got the revival Zealots.
  • Conservators: While EXTREMELY useful in a Conserv/Adept composition, they're incredibly flimsy. Like, Probe level of flimsy. Would like to see a slight increase in health/shields for them.
  • Colossi: Too much cost for too little value. They just... Don't do much, even with Warbringer's AI. Speaking of which, that AI also does not benefit from the Thermal Lance upgrade, making it 1 range shorter than the others. Might want to look into that.
  • Scouts: Meeeeh, they're Scouts. I vastly prefer the Carrier over them, mostly due to them being very flimsy as well. Also seem to have an awkward sight range and movement speed.
  • Research: I actually find his research costs to be fair where they are. 100/50 for an AI champion, and 75/75 or 50/50 is reasonable for abilities.
  • Karax
    I... Don't know what to really say about Karax. I guess his offensive army is a bit lacking, and the reconstruction beam feels like it heals a few too few targets. But that's just me.
    Living the dream for us game design people, congrats on the job!

    Couple generic thoughts / wish list items:
    all campaign maps in Co-op cross all campaigns (SC1-Nova); even if not part of regular map queue. (fun way to enjoy the game with friends who don’t venture into single player.)
    All commanders have a clear co op assistance (swan gives gas, what does Fenix do? Stukov? Not sure I feel salvage with H&H really counts) i like that not all commanders are great alone, give players a reason to interact with one another. If you’re Raynor, dropping medics on an allied hero / galleon is a good thing to do!

    P&P: auto attack scrap, delay first train, and add a little more time on the clock per scrap. Don’t love the map but it’s ‘ok’ to me.

    H&H: never using the widow mines I; try to mix the other 3 together but reapers seem to be just better but also the most fragile.
    Would like to see BC use both attacks simultaneously.
    Strike fighters are interesting, but would like more AoE for bombing run, also maybe an alternative payload for anti air strikes. Not sure if I want the strike to always land cause the ‘fly across map’ impact is kinda cool and unique.
    Mastery:
    Set 1: split: life regen important for expensive units but Death chance impacts game play more.
    Set 2: don’t love either so split for most effect
    Set3: mostly in mines, but both seem useful
    Mines in general work for me.

    (Favorite so a lot to say)
    Fenix: while not Geth (Mass Effect reference) seems like having more supply should just make all purifiers better.
    Maybe make avenging protocol to increase durability of surrounding units, like the mutator, instead of boosting offensive strength? Alternatively make it impact and activate on all units not just heros. Maybe could also impact all friendly units. Obviously not guardian shell, but something similar in power, it probably would super charge Fenix as a commander.
    Possible issue is that the army in general is kinda vanilla: no upgrades for generic immortal, and zealots only get charge, so what is a Silly idea, but why not zealots have all upgrades for all zealots; even more silly all units get all abilities for similar units cross factions? Purifiers, as machines, might be faster at adapting / absorbing other technologies?
    Exchange carrier for tempest: Seems thematically correct and also the high DPS feels right for the army.
    Maybe conservator do shields, or even health for mechanical only
    Would love to see a call down for a purifier nuke, like solar bombardment but just 1 quick blast for 3000 damage in an area. Not moving like Karax or sustained like Artanis.
    Mastery: set 1: I lean on Attack speed, but energy is probably the better choice
    Set 2: split, both
    Set 3:
    Never bothered with initial supply, maybe it would be better for increasing supply per pylon. I rely on increased speed for faster probe deployment to get quick scout / immortal. Tend to skip gateway builds till late game or all together.

    Karax:
    ability to move cannons would be cool; but could break use for army at all. army too expensive and always feel gas constrained.
    Never make mirages or colossi, immortals and carriers just do better.
    Carriers always seem like they should have had multiple 'craft,' bombers or anti air, or strike fighters, all options for carrier load-outs.
    Mastery:
    Set 1: either one or other and army is generally more important in offensive maps.
    Set 2: only ever our points into healing rate, never seemed like a choice to me.
    Set3: 200 feels like ‘just enough’ and I need faster probes / carriers / upgrades.
    Fenix: I like the idea posted around page 5 or so where avenging protocol is a reset to the abilities of champions depending on whether it was a shell for them or one of the other champions as it plays into the interconnectivity of his army and his rank 15 keystone of tactical data web.
    -Speaking of that connectivity Fenix himself feels more like a prop outside of arbiter mode than something that actually interacts and makes his army or champions (a.k.a. tall or wide) better which could be somewhat addressed with an overhaul of powerset 1 after giving his passive energy regen for offline suits to the perk that already does that for sheilds and health because if you try to be active with fenix micro you need that energy as even the lower ranks of it help out quite a bit and/or you could cause the above proposed avenging protocol proc reduce the cost of his next active ability cast be reduced by nice chunk at max rank for an option.
    -Powerset 2 could also use the same tall or wide flavoring.
    -Powerset 3 i think is in the healthiest spot but is still largely underwhelming regardless due to the underwhelming nature of the rest of his prestige bonuses.
    -the whole legionnaire cost efficiency could stand a look at though the supply side makes since so you don't end up having to endlessly and fruitlessly craft legionnaires to get the tactical data web bonus for kaldalis.
    avenging protocol as proposed above but it would otherwise fix alot of the complaints given towards how underwhelming the rest of the champions not named clolarion are but perhaps giving the shells an offensive boost when you research their champions ability could be in order to compensate for their lack of researchable abilities and to help justify a drop in legionnare price or an increase in survivability to match mineral/supply cost.

    Karax: Having just leveled this guy up i have to say something has to be done about his leveling experience as it is absolutely abysmal pre-11 and still fairly miserable afterwards if you have to switch to army midway when you realize your partner just isn't able to handle the offensive load for whatever reason causing him to be moreso than most commanders having his power ceiling being set abysmally low. also his utter lack of sustainable counter-air forces that you can field in large enough numbers to make an impact in the early game can make his life for an army set-up miserable. especially pre- lvl9, when you don't have access to shadow cannon which when in conjunction to judicial use of topbar can make life vs the odd air units that get made in the ground based comps bearable. Moving reconstruction beam to 3, monolith to 5, and chrono overdrive to preferably 12 would improve the experience as is without breaking any of the key powerspikes to the OE/DoN turret grinders. Also a cost reduction to everything not a carrier is in order imo instead of just colossus. They could still be more than 100% but having to pay 50% more for even the relatively flimsy units leaves one feeling gimped at best.
    -His prestige seems pretty cut and dry with the first option being army playstyle benificial and the second one giving something that turret karax would enjoy although option 2 for powerset 2 could stand to have the numbers looked at.

    P&P: Having to change your strategy from map to map is fine but this map straight punishes commanders who have a weak early game outside of whatever calldowns they may possess to normally thwart off the early waves. First train is also way too early but any later and you could be running into a common dilemma with the second train where it spawns in the middle of a boss fight meaning your probably gonna miss it too. The constant micro can often cause those first 2 boss fights and the second train to turn into a-move and go furiously make up for all the building/static defense macro you didn't get around to because you were too busy making sure your army didn't go suicide itself while trying to clear out the enemies surrounding a set of parts you needed to pick up.

    edit: yay H&H announcements and also refining the ideas i had quickly jotted here before work
    Just adding onto my own opinion list here.

    Raynor
    Raynor's bio is extremely flimsy. Like, I can understand dying to a group of tanks or reavers, but in a mission like Chain of Ascension, that first Hybrid pack absolutely MURDERS your entire army in a few swings. On top of this, the Hybrid Behemoth (the large red dude) is COMPLETELY immune to the Marauder's Concussion Grenades. Any mission that has a semi-early or early Behemoth just walks all over Raynor and puts the mission in jeopardy. Just like with how other players say about Fenix, it feels like Battlecruisers is Raynor's only actual good unit comp. However, they are also extremely gas starved, being Terrans and BCs.
    Raynor should probably be looked at, imo. Either that or Hybrid Behemoths need to be taken back a bit. 30 damage cleave with like 3k HP is just... Ow.
    01/26/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sprite
    Just adding onto my own opinion list here.

    Raynor
    Raynor's bio is extremely flimsy. Like, I can understand dying to a group of tanks or reavers, but in a mission like Chain of Ascension, that first Hybrid pack absolutely MURDERS your entire army in a few swings.


    1. Have better macro
    2. Use a calldown

    01/26/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sprite
    On top of this, the Hybrid Behemoth (the large red dude) is COMPLETELY immune to the Marauder's Concussion Grenades. Any mission that has a semi-early or early Behemoth just walks all over Raynor and puts the mission in jeopardy. Just like with how other players say about Fenix, it feels like Battlecruisers is Raynor's only actual good unit comp. However, they are also extremely gas starved, being Terrans and BCs.
    Raynor should probably be looked at, imo. Either that or Hybrid Behemoths need to be taken back a bit. 30 damage cleave with like 3k HP is just... Ow.


    What? They only have 2k hp. You should be shredding them with Raynor's incredibly high DPS. Are you forgetting to upgrade and stim?
    01/26/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sprite
    Just adding onto my own opinion list here.

    Raynor
    Raynor's bio is extremely flimsy. Like, I can understand dying to a group of tanks or reavers, but in a mission like Chain of Ascension, that first Hybrid pack absolutely MURDERS your entire army in a few swings. On top of this, the Hybrid Behemoth (the large red dude) is COMPLETELY immune to the Marauder's Concussion Grenades. Any mission that has a semi-early or early Behemoth just walks all over Raynor and puts the mission in jeopardy. Just like with how other players say about Fenix, it feels like Battlecruisers is Raynor's only actual good unit comp. However, they are also extremely gas starved, being Terrans and BCs.
    Raynor should probably be looked at, imo. Either that or Hybrid Behemoths need to be taken back a bit. 30 damage cleave with like 3k HP is just... Ow.


    You literally have no idea of what you're talking about.
    01/26/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sprite
    Just adding onto my own opinion list here.

    Raynor
    Raynor's bio is extremely flimsy. Like, I can understand dying to a group of tanks or reavers, but in a mission like Chain of Ascension, that first Hybrid pack absolutely MURDERS your entire army in a few swings. On top of this, the Hybrid Behemoth (the large red dude) is COMPLETELY immune to the Marauder's Concussion Grenades. Any mission that has a semi-early or early Behemoth just walks all over Raynor and puts the mission in jeopardy. Just like with how other players say about Fenix, it feels like Battlecruisers is Raynor's only actual good unit comp. However, they are also extremely gas starved, being Terrans and BCs.
    Raynor should probably be looked at, imo. Either that or Hybrid Behemoths need to be taken back a bit. 30 damage cleave with like 3k HP is just... Ow.


    Watch LilArrin's solo Raynor speedruns on Brutal (Youtube).
    01/26/2018 09:51 AMPosted by ILIKEPIE
    01/26/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sprite
    Just adding onto my own opinion list here.

    Raynor
    Raynor's bio is extremely flimsy. Like, I can understand dying to a group of tanks or reavers, but in a mission like Chain of Ascension, that first Hybrid pack absolutely MURDERS your entire army in a few swings.


    1. Have better macro
    2. Use a calldown

    01/26/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sprite
    On top of this, the Hybrid Behemoth (the large red dude) is COMPLETELY immune to the Marauder's Concussion Grenades. Any mission that has a semi-early or early Behemoth just walks all over Raynor and puts the mission in jeopardy. Just like with how other players say about Fenix, it feels like Battlecruisers is Raynor's only actual good unit comp. However, they are also extremely gas starved, being Terrans and BCs.
    Raynor should probably be looked at, imo. Either that or Hybrid Behemoths need to be taken back a bit. 30 damage cleave with like 3k HP is just... Ow.


    What? They only have 2k hp. You should be shredding them with Raynor's incredibly high DPS. Are you forgetting to upgrade and stim?


    No, I'm not forgetting about Stim or upgrades. Even with stutter stepping, the army sort of just... Falls over and dies to the Behemoths. Marine/Marauder/Medic just doesn't stand up to them at all.
    As for Macro, off one base I'm already running like 4 rax (3 TB, 1 R) plus double pumping upgrades.

    01/26/2018 10:12 AMPosted by ViS
    01/26/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sprite
    Just adding onto my own opinion list here.

    Raynor
    Raynor's bio is extremely flimsy. Like, I can understand dying to a group of tanks or reavers, but in a mission like Chain of Ascension, that first Hybrid pack absolutely MURDERS your entire army in a few swings. On top of this, the Hybrid Behemoth (the large red dude) is COMPLETELY immune to the Marauder's Concussion Grenades. Any mission that has a semi-early or early Behemoth just walks all over Raynor and puts the mission in jeopardy. Just like with how other players say about Fenix, it feels like Battlecruisers is Raynor's only actual good unit comp. However, they are also extremely gas starved, being Terrans and BCs.
    Raynor should probably be looked at, imo. Either that or Hybrid Behemoths need to be taken back a bit. 30 damage cleave with like 3k HP is just... Ow.


    You literally have no idea of what you're talking about.
    K. Let's just discredit someone for having an opinion.

    No, I'm not forgetting about Stim or upgrades. Even with stutter stepping, the army sort of just... Falls over and dies to the Behemoths. Marine/Marauder/Medic just doesn't stand up to them at all.
    As for Macro, off one base I'm already running like 4 rax (3 TB, 1 R) plus double pumping upgrades.

    Why are you still on one base by the time you meet the first behemoth? And why are you going triple tech lab plus double ebay off of one base's worth of gas?
    To be fair, the first Hybrid Behemoth/Dominator does appear fairly early on Chain of Ascension depending on how you play. Also it sometimes comes unluckily timed with the first attack wave which can have cloak/air, etc.. I'm not the worst co-op player and this is actually one of the things I do die to sometimes. (Well, by now I learned my lesson, but this used to be an issue to me. It used to be the first map without fast expand also, so quite weird.)

    Without calldowns it is difficult to take on if you don't know what's coming. Especially if you don't have a good ally and did not prepare for it.
    01/26/2018 01:49 PMPosted by DSh
    To be fair, the first Hybrid Behemoth/Dominator does appear fairly early on Chain of Ascension depending on how you play. Also it sometimes comes unluckily timed with the first attack wave which can have cloak/air, etc.. I'm not the worst co-op player and this is actually one of the things I do die to sometimes. (Well, by now I learned my lesson, but this used to be an issue to me. It used to be the first map without fast expand also, so quite weird.)

    Without calldowns it is difficult to take on if you don't know what's coming. Especially if you don't have a good ally and did not prepare for it.


    What are you wasting these calldowns on then. You should have 2 uses of banshees and a use of hyperion, even if you spawn the hybrids early
    01/26/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Sprite
    K. Let's just discredit someone for having an opinion.


    When I'm ignorant of things, I like to be quiet, do my best to be a good student and ask questions. Not write walls of text on every possible related topic while being horribly wrong about everything.
    Maybe HandH should have a fun death mechanic for scvs? SCV's build faster when friendly units die in combat.

    Fits well with there death mechanic. can help mid game building strike fighter platforms quickly.


    Autoburrow on death[?

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