Co-op Mission Update - March 15th, 2018

Co-op Missions Discussion
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Hi again! It’s been a while since our last big Co-op patch, which focused on Han & Horner, Fenix, and Karax. There’s been a lot of productive discussion in the community about how these Commanders feel post-update, and we’ve been closely monitoring this discussion to see if there’s any future tweaks we can do. But before we make any more changes to those three, we’re excited to announce our next set of Commander updates, which will include Artanis, Raynor, and Swann!

Artanis

Artanis is one of our starter Commanders, and we think he does a great job at introducing players to Protoss in Co-op. He showcases Protoss mechanics well and is forgiving to play thanks to his Guardian Shell ability. He also has a wide variety of powerful strategies. However, we’ve identified the following areas in which he could be tuned:
  • Artanis’ energy-based calldowns are underwhelming compared to those of other Commanders. Thus, we’ll be looking to make changes to Orbital Strike and Shield Overcharge to bring these abilities to that power level.
  • Artanis’ anti-air options are underwhelming compared to those of other Commanders. As such, we’ll be looking to focus some of Artanis’ changes to the Dragoon and Phoenix.


Raynor

Like Artanis with Protoss, Raynor serves as most players’ introduction to Terran Co-op play. Raynor’s bio play is in a good place as it is difficult to execute but also highly rewarding to play. However:
  • His Mech units aren’t seeing as much use as we’d like. Thus, we’ll focus our changes towards improving Mech play and encouraging Bio/Mech combinations without influencing the strength of Bio.


Swann

Swann is another Commander that players frequently request changes for. Swann is one of the strongest Commanders in the late-game, and he has one of the most helpful and powerful Co-op abilities in Vespene Harvesters. The problem is that Swann has difficulties getting there for a variety of reasons:
  • Swann has one of the longest ramp-up times in the game.
  • Hellbats, Cyclones, Thors, and Wraiths are not at the power level we’d like them to be. As with Raynor, we’d like to focus Swann’s changes on these lesser-used units and hopefully give him many similarly powerful options.


Community Feedback

As with the previous round of changes, please let us know what you think about the direction we’re taking with these Commanders. We look forward to your feedback and suggestions!

Kevin Dong
Co-op Commander Designer
Always a pleasure to see bluepost from you on coop forum, Kevin.
Thanks for the heads up, cant wait for what you come up with
Nice, glad to see my old favorite Swann is next in line for some updates. Artanis and Raynor are also good choices for a revamp, and I look forward to seeing the ideas flow for all of them!
Wow, right after I write a block of text out of boredom. :P

Anyways, great news.
Looks like all the major commander deficiencies will be addressed. Raynor's bio is difficult to execute as mentioned, maybe his mech could be a little easier to use since this is a "commander recommended for beginners".

Swann seems to have a much harder time vs the zagara+viper ai comp than vs other comps because of the swarm host+scourge combo. Maybe some of the changes to his lesser units could help protect his SV from the scourge?

Artanis's Tempests also seem like they maybe could use a look at as an AA option. One glaring issue with Tempests as AA is their range in general which can lead to them needing heavy micro to be in range of their air targets instead of just sitting around picking off ground targets. If Tempests are not meant to fight armored air as a primary function then the Dragoons and Pheonix would have to fill that roll somehow.
I really hope that steps for improving Swann will include finally fixing for good a bug with his SCV's randomly not joining nearby construction.
Great time for another round of community discussion! It is always a pleasure to follow these.

I think improving on Raynor mech may be very difficult. The point is having these units as specialists, but how to do that without making them too powerful in their correct niche? I think some creative solutions may be called for.

Swann should be a lot more straightforward; For Thor and Wraith, change them to emphasize on different niches than Goliath, and for Cyclone and Hellbat/Hellion, emphasize their existing niche. We've had plenty of threads about these in the past, even!

Edit: I went through rasmasyean's posting history and compiled a list of Swann discussion threads from ancient times, some of them with some pretty great points. In no particular order:

Focused Wraith Discussion
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20758847976#post-1

Changes For Swann Needed
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20758725911?page=1

All I Want Is A good Thor Buff
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20758536770?page=1

Swann: What Changes are Needed?
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20755036326?page=1

Ideas for Swann's Cyclone As A "Micro" Unit
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20759370108#post-1

Swann Is Getting Severely Outpaced
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20759247119?page=1

More Suggestions For Swann
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20761887240?page=1

Swann Discussion
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20761996022?page=1

Regenerative Biosteel
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20760887972#post-1

Some Good Ideas To Buff Swann
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20760636405?page=1

Swann's Cyclones Take Too Long With Lock-On
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20761967658#post-1
Thank you for taking a look at Swann and Artanis.

Here’s what I think about Swann:

Changing Cyclones to their multiplayer iteration would be a HUGE upgrade for one, as that one is the more “in your face” version, which is desperately needed in Co-Op where guerilla warfare and harassment tactics aren’t as strong.

Wraiths need to deal double damage instead of double attack speed with their Burst Laser upgrade. They are meant to be fast units that hit and run, but the extra attack speed means that you have to sit still more often, leaving you more exposed to attacks like Storm and Fungal. This will also partially address the problem of them being vulnerable to AoEs and being ironically more squishy than Raynor’s Vikings. It will also fit Swann’s theme of “big guns and big damages” since the change will increase the Wraith’s DPS vs armor. I’d also like a range upgrade or the Evasion upgrade to work on ALL damage(spell and splash included), but let’s see about other changes first.

Edit: Thors could use an important buff, too: the range of their 330mm cannons should be AT THE VERY LEAST the same range of their normal ground weapon. It makes no sense for Thors to have to fire a bunch of blasts at a closer range when they could fire their arm cannons much further than that.

As for Artanis:

For Dragoons, I think that giving them Stalker levels of movement speed(2.81 speed) will help immensely. Right now, they can’t catch up to the rest of their army, and they stumble upon each other even with better pathing because they’re so slow to move around. The problem is that Dragoons were more known for being a guerilla warfare unit in Brood War, so I’m not sure how to improve the Dragoon on other aspects without going overboard, but making Dragoons faster like they were in Brood War is a big step.
For swann .. the laser itself is a rather useless tool by now ..

It runs by but needs no control.

It takes two mastery slots that don’t do that much.

Please emphasize it more to make it part of a unique gameplay.

For example:
*different modes for different enemies or settings
*give more reward to manual targeting aka reduce targeting time.
I think a change to Regenerative Bio-Steel could be used to correct issues with both Thors and Wraiths. I mentioned it before in previous topics, how Biosteel could updated from its WoL implementation of 1-2 HP per second at all times, to its far more rapid Nova Covert Ops implementation of 10 HP per second Out of Combat.

This would give Wraiths out of combat sustain, allowing for hit and runs without the need for slow Science Vessels to tag along.

But now for the crux of my thought line. What if the Biosteel upgrade also gave bonus energy regen out of combat, as well as the rapid life regen? This would fix the Wraith cloaking issue by making them freely recharge their energy when they are out of combat and not currently cloaked. As a bonus, this would give Thors the ability to use Barrage more often in between engagements, as well as give Science Vessels more energy for Defensive Matrix and Irradiate as long as they could get a few moments of downtime to regenerate their batteries.
03/15/2018 11:18 AMPosted by monk
Hi again! It’s been a while since our last big Co-op patch, which focused on Han & Horner, Fenix, and Karax. There’s been a lot of productive discussion in the community about how these Commanders feel post-update, and we’ve been closely monitoring this discussion to see if there’s any future tweaks we can do. But before we make any more changes to those three, we’re excited to announce our next set of Commander updates, which will include Artanis, Raynor, and Swann!

Artanis

Artanis is one of our starter Commanders, and we think he does a great job at introducing players to Protoss in Co-op. He showcases Protoss mechanics well and is forgiving to play thanks to his Guardian Shell ability. He also has a wide variety of powerful strategies. However, we’ve identified the following areas in which he could be tuned:
  • Artanis’ energy-based calldowns are underwhelming compared to those of other Commanders. Thus, we’ll be looking to make changes to Orbital Strike and Shield Overcharge to bring these abilities to that power level.
  • Artanis’ anti-air options are underwhelming compared to those of other Commanders. As such, we’ll be looking to focus some of Artanis’ changes to the Dragoon and Phoenix.


Raynor

Like Artanis with Protoss, Raynor serves as most players’ introduction to Terran Co-op play. Raynor’s bio play is in a good place as it is difficult to execute but also highly rewarding to play. However:
  • His Mech units aren’t seeing as much use as we’d like. Thus, we’ll focus our changes towards improving Mech play and encouraging Bio/Mech combinations without influencing the strength of Bio.


Swann

Swann is another Commander that players frequently request changes for. Swann is one of the strongest Commanders in the late-game, and he has one of the most helpful and powerful Co-op abilities in Vespene Harvesters. The problem is that Swann has difficulties getting there for a variety of reasons:
  • Swann has one of the longest ramp-up times in the game.
  • Hellbats, Cyclones, Thors, and Wraiths are not at the power level we’d like them to be. As with Raynor, we’d like to focus Swann’s changes on these lesser-used units and hopefully give him many similarly powerful options.


Community Feedback

As with the previous round of changes, please let us know what you think about the direction we’re taking with these Commanders. We look forward to your feedback and suggestions!

Kevin Dong
Co-op Commander Designer


Patchnotes when?. Really looking forward to more changes.

The co-op team has been doing a phenomenal job.
I always combine Raynor's bio and mech when I play it seriously. (sometimes I trained ONLY marines..) I felt some how uncomfortable when balancing the gas. I have to get eng bay, labs and armory going at same time as well as train mech unit that require much gases.
Arta surely has (one of) the worst AA in the game. Dragoon with warp in buff was fine, but this unit was just somehow stupid like in SC1. It just takes too much space. Phoenix was just OK as AA, but need to be splited when encountering ravens and vapors.(I used it for anti ground more often....). Psi storm doesn't work for high HP target and feedback can not target well for cluster of air unit. tempest is slow ,expensive and short ranged... archon... oh, come on...
another thing, arta has the slowest ground artillery unit.
Woo it's Swann's turn! Happy day!
I would like to see high impact payload and more armor on Swann's Thors, for example.
Couple of Swann changes I'd like

1)Buff wraith's to function more like Horner's wraith's. IE let them start off with cloak and change the upgrade to a permanent cloak. Pulse amplifier also needs a massive buff to do more then tickle ground units.

2)Make Cyclones cheaper and buff their damage. They suffer from being a unit built for PVP and aren't sufficiently buffed for co-op. Maybe give them a new toy as well to stop them from being worse goliath's.

3)Either make Thor's faster or shrink their hitbox. Thor's tend to either lag behind and even when carried in to battle via hercs, tend to just get in each other's way.

4)Buff his Hellbats HP to match Mira's.

5)Slap the vehicle tag on his SCV's so they get the build time decrease. That would help fix his ramp up time without replacing a current power with Command Center Reactor or Automated Refineries.
Please do not update Swann's cyclones to the mp version because now they serve a purpose in Mutations. Mayby just let them airtargets lock on without the need to stand still?

About Artanis the only drugged Stettman like Idea to buff them I get is just reduce the gas costs of Air Units at 50%.
Small quality of life suggestion regarding Swann: just like defensive drone, toxic nests, structure overcharge etc.

Separate Warbots Drop into 3 packs of 2 bots (2 packs of 2 before getting '6 for the price of 4' talent). Same cooldown. You can still call down all 6 at once if you want of course.

Technically its a small buff because you'll be able to stun more area but overall would help with resource managing and map presence for Swann.
03/15/2018 01:29 PMPosted by Koronus
Please do not update Swann's cyclones to the mp version because now they serve a purpose in Mutations. Mayby just let them airtargets lock on without the need to stand still?

About Artanis the only drugged Stettman like Idea to buff them I get is just reduce the gas costs of Air Units at 50%.


Why not just upgrade Swann's cyclone's default regular attack to mp version and keep the lock-on ability?
Swann's cyclone's regular attack: 18 damage per 1 sec
Mp's cyclone's regular attack: 3+2 damage per 0.1 sec
Lock on: 500 (750 after upgrade) damage in 20 sec
The new cyclone can engage a head on fight (maybe buff it to a flat 5 damage), and it still can use a hit-and-run strategy with lock on. Also, reduce its gas cost to 100 may be a good idea too.
You asked for it, so here it goes:



Artanis
He also has a wide variety of powerful strategies.

No

  • Artanis’ energy-based calldowns
  • Artanis’ anti-air options

Some suggestions for orbital strike: improve it similar to how you guys did it with H&H strike fighters. More impact, more damage, maybe add karax mechanic to it ( making it charge based essentially)
In terms of shield overcharge: instead of absorbing damage, make it reduce incoming damage and increase its duration.
For Anti air:
Reduce the cost of fenixes (no pun intended) by 50. Its 150/sth. at the moment, make it 100/sth. oh, and add more damage.
For the dragoon, it kind of depends on the role it should fill: heavy anti air or fast shooter. Removing its armor tag might help for starters, and some number buffs should fix it right up.

Swann

  • Swann has one of the longest ramp-up times in the game.
  • Hellbats, Cyclones, Thors, and Wraiths are not at the power level we’d like them to be. As with Raynor, we’d like to focus Swann’s changes on these lesser-used units and hopefully give him many similarly powerful options.


I dont really care about his other units, but the first one is a big one. The community had 1298492038239120 ideas for improving swanns ramp up time, some of which have been linked here.
Some small changes with regards to the mentioned units:
  • Hellbats need more HP + maybe the blue frame upgrade by default
  • cyclones need everything. Straight up buffing pretty much all its numbers should help immensly
  • On that note: cyclones need to be differentiated from goliaths. If you want people to build cyclones, give us a reason to do so.
  • same goes for the thor. Again, its all in the linked threads, but collision size + goliaths are just better summarizes the biggest problems imo.
  • Swann has wraiths!?


Overall im really excited for Swann changes, but please dont underestimate the amount of work he needs.
Thank you for new revamp announcement.
I suggest several ideas for these commanders.

Increase Tempest's air attack range 6 to 10.
Fire Supression System should repair 100% hp(current 50%)
ARES's stun bug should be fixed.

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