Protoss Progress - suggestions (and mod)

General Discussion
*Update: I tweaked the tempest values*
*Update: changes to tempest and colossus*
*3rd Update: changes to voidray, tempest and recall*

Hello everybody!

I created a small extension mod to demonstrate some protoss ideas, which were floating around at the back of my mind for some time.

I just want to put this out here in case other people might like the ideas and give some feedback on them.

There is a unit tester and a custom FFA (vs AI) map which both include this mod.

Extension Mod:
Protoss Progress - A balance of power?
battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/208289

Unit tester:

LOTV | Unit Tester - Protoss Progress
battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/208290

Custom map:
Protoss Proving Grounds
battlenet:://starcraft/map/2/208159

This mod consists of four sets of changes:

- Colossus
- Voidray
- Tempest
- Nexus Recall

These are more design changes and ideas than balance changes. Things that I wish blizzard would try at some point. There is a video for every change for those who can't be bothered to load up the mod :)

This was mod was done mostly for fun, but I do think that these ideas could work - with some tweaking - and would make the gameplay more interesting and varied.

Colossus:

Changes:
- less hp(180)/shields(100),
- no longer massive
- slightly better acceleration, much higher movement speed
- continous single target beam attack that consists of 2 very fast ticking attacks with 3 damage each, which can switch between targets very quickly
- can attack while moving
- slightly slower turret movement and angle base targeting (instead of targeting closest enemy)

*Updated values:*
- changed attack damage to 4 and made it proportionally slower, so that the impact of enemy armor and your own attack upgrades is less extreme
- lowered the acceleration to a level where it is actually noticable

Video: http://streamable.com/buqzq

Reasoning:
The idea is to supply protoss with solid damage dealer that can be used in smaller unit groups and is just as effective as a single unit as well as in a group.
The damage output vs units with 0 armor is very high, and damage scales up quickly with attack upgrades or down with enemy armor upgrades.
The fast movement speed and moving shot together with the cliffwalking enable the colossus to do damage and survive even when outnumbered, as long as it is microed well.
Lower hp and the vulnerability to air still make it a glass cannon but one that doesn't have to be thrown away immediately after air based counters are online. It still scales well in numbers but will not snowball after reaching a critical mass as tends to happen with AoE damage.
They are now very efective vs zerglings and banelings due to their lack of armor and it's newfound ability to aqcuire new targets very quickly.


Voidray:

Changes:
- slightly better acceleration
- slightly longer buildtime
- Prismatic Alignment now has shorter duration, but also a shorter cooldown
- Prismatic Alignment adds +1 range
- Prismatic Alignment + armored damage reduced to +3
- Prismatic Alignment movement malus increased to 55% speed reduction
- Prismatic Alignment now increases attack speed by 33%

*Update changes*:
- reduced basic attack damage by 1 (from 6 +4 armored to 5 + 4 armored)
- prismatic alignment damage is still 6 + 7 armored
- voidrays are overall bit weaker without prismatic alignment active

Video: https://streamable.com/fnkfq

Reasoning:
The voidray absolutely massacres armored units but beyond that it's a terrible investment due to the 4 supply cost and the extremely low damage versus anything thats not armored. The idea of gaining power in exchange for speed seems good but gaining power only versus a specific unit type, just make it a mandatory click when fighting armored and the long cooldown and long duration take away any tactical aspect.
With these changes greater numbers of voidray will not automatically lose you the game when facing marines or hydras, instead you can win now if you take a good engagement with Prismatic Alignment. The great speed reduction should help balance out the increased damage and range, the idea is to make it a bit more similar to the siege tanke in that you can bait out the "siege" and then run away. On the other hand the voidray can be better used as a defensive unit now, due to decent damage potential versus all unit types and the lower CD in combination with shield batteries. The higher buildtime is to prevent easy massing of voidrays and early rushes, since air units scale too well in higher numbers due to them clumping together.
But that's mostly a danger earlier in the game.


Tempest:

Changes:
- less hp(180)/shields(180)
- less armor(1)
- lower supply cost(4)
- merged air/ground attack at 15 range (previous air attack range)
- no bonus damage to massive
- base attack damage is now 7 but gains +2 damage per armor point and +3 per upgrade
- attack creates a damage over time effect on impact, lasts for 2 seconds, does not stack and reduces current enemy hp/shields by 30%

*Updated values:*
- DOT over 1 seconds instead of 2
- 3 damage per enemy armor
- 9 base damage

*2nd Update values:*
- DOT over ca. 2.2 seconds
- DOT damage in three ticks 11% each
- 11% damage (first tick) when effect is reapplied (by multiple tempests shooting at the same target)
- target is silenced while under the DOT, one tempest can now silence one target while attacking it

*3rd Update changes*:
- removed effect of armor on tempest damage
- removed weapons upgrade effect on tempest
- tempest now has 9 damage flat spell damage plus the 11% instant damage on (re-)application of the DOT
- less able to land killing shots but better scaling with growing tempest numbers
- usable for silence ability to take casters out of the fight

Video: https://streamable.com/a2b27

Reasoning:
The tempest is only used as a specific (hard)counter to massive air units or as a counter to liberators (only because of the range and difficulty of countering libs otherwise). To me it's the worst and lamest unit in the game. you build tempest and you almost always lose because their damage is terrible and they are incredibly supply inefficient. So we now have them at 4 supply again and with merged air/ground to make them less irritating and more usable. Their new role is a support damage dealer and siege weapon. Even a few tempests have great damage portential due to the percentage based damage and this damage type makes them innately more effective versus massive units that have more hp and less effective versus low hp units.
Furthermore the damage does not stack and is also greatly reduced if the enemy unit is already low in health. The drawbacks here are the low damage on many units and the greatly reduced armor and hp, together with very bad scaling with numbers. This is being balanced out by better supply efficiency, the ability to be useful in low numbers and the evry high damage potential if microed to fire on seperate targets. By themselvers tempests can now barely kill anything due to damage scaling down and their low survivability, but they are great support damage dealers. The +2 damage per enemy armor point makes them semi effective versus high armor units like ultras and bcs even if not microed too well.
I think this makes for some nice lore too, the tempests using a gravity based weapon, that turns the enemies mass against him.


Nexus Recall:

Changes:
- changed the maximum number of units recalled to 9
- greatly reduced the radius of targeting selector
- reduced cooldown to 2 seconds, still global

*Update changes*:
- changed energy cost to 75
- less frequent recalls, energy management necessary, max 2 recalls instead of 4 per nexus.

Video: https://streamable.com/p0tzq

Reasoning:
The current mass recall encourages death ball play, the high cooldown makes tactical recalls very dangerous and rare. Ideally you move out with you whole army, kill an expansion and then recall to defend versus your enemy, or recall to prevent fighting the enemy army.
It still does barely help with protoss's main problem of immobility and the risk of being picked apart in multpronged attacks by fast high dps units like MMM drops or zergling runbies/drops.
The idea now is to use the recall as a tactical tool, to move parts of your army in position to defend a base or to flank an enemy army. The low unit count together with the global cooldown, make it much harder to recall big parts of your army (as you will need a lot of energy and time).
But now it makes much more sense to recall small unit groups, like DTs or warpprisms or a fraction of your army to defend against drops.
Protoss is vastly inferior to the other races when it comes to lategame mobility and defense and as it is always easier to be the aggressor anyway, there should be a vaild defensive mobility option for protoss as well.


If you want to play some custom games with the mod feel free to send me a PM.
My level is around lower diamond currently.

Link to the TL thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/532643-protoss-progress-an-extension-mod

Link to reddit post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/89udlk/protoss_ideas_extension_mod_and_videos_inside/
This are all good and well-reasoned changes. I hope Blizzard considers some of them in one of future design-changes.
+1
I like the void ray changes and I am intrigued by the nexus change, but the other 2 just seem bad. The colossus change not only defeats the purpose of the unit, but also makes it into the cyclone. And we all know how goo cyclones are past early game, aka when robo bay finishes. Unless you want the only purpose of colossus to be as a rush build where you make one and transition back into chargelot archon.
I personally dislike the changes, simply because of how BS some rushes can become due to those changes. And they are already annoying as is it is.
04/03/2018 11:50 AMPosted by WireBender
The colossus change not only defeats the purpose of the unit, but also makes it into the cyclone. And we all know how goo cyclones are past early game, aka when robo bay finishes.


That was my first impression, but I think they're actually way too good. They are cyclones that move faster, have high range, can attack while moving, can cliff-walk, and can stand on top of other units. It basically removes all of the drawbacks of the cyclone (don't scale because they take up space at low-ish range, not micro-able). Pretty much impossible to catch.
Recall 9 units? so it will recall 9 stalkers and colossus with hts will left on the field?
Ah how nice this refreshing negativity lol.
I somehow expect the downvotes to be from terran trolls :p

Anyways thanks for the feedback guys, but please dont go with gut reactions, use arguments instead and check out the videos or the mod.

The only change here that could boost rushes is the voidray change, but that should be somewhat counteracted by the longer buildtime. Maybe hiding the prismatic alignment behind a cybernetics core upgrade would be an option as well.

The nexus recall could lead to some interesting weird tactics, maybe some OP stuff but you can't really tell without trying. The recall's purpose here is not to withdraw your army but instead to call a portion of your army to your defense. If you have minimal micro it should be easy to separate a balanced squad for recall.

The colossus will obviously be way more powerful than the cyclone, because it can stay out of range and has very high dps vs units with 0 armor. It might be too strong but it's a fricking tier 3 unit and easy to kill so I think it might work. Marauders with concussive shells easily catch them, lurkers may be able to defend against them and air units are the hard counter as before. I also made them slower then upgraded hydras and roaches.

I'm not saying that these changes are perfect or definitive, but they are in my opinion way more dynamic and interesting than what we have now.

Imagine a colossus that can actually harrass due to higher movement speed, that can work in low numbers, but won't be OP in masses due to splash, a unit that can benefit from micro but does safe damage in any case - that's what I tried to create.

04/03/2018 11:50 AMPosted by WireBender
I like the void ray changes and I am intrigued by the nexus change, but the other 2 just seem bad. The colossus change not only defeats the purpose of the unit, but also makes it into the cyclone. And we all know how goo cyclones are past early game, aka when robo bay finishes. Unless you want the only purpose of colossus to be as a rush build where you make one and transition back into chargelot archon.


Please describe your criticism of the tempest.
What's the problem with that idea?

It does great damage over time, but in greater numbers it's very inefficient because the damage does not stack.
The %-based damage means that it's easy to take down the health of a unit but hard to actually kill somthing, since the damage decreases with the targets HP.
Please watch the videos and if the gameplay looks interesting to you then upvote, so that maybe blizzard sees this when they look for suggestions.

If you have criticsism, please be specific and if your points are valid I can try to adapt.

Please don't just downvote just because you are a grumpy kid who doesn't like protoss. I tried hard to not make anything too strong, while still offering new options and dynamics.

Thank you.
I like the changes all in general but the Tempest in particular. The concept of the %-based damage is very interesting and can be so valuable as to warrant the supply in the current level (you don't need to mass this unit anyway with this change).
It will require a little more micro (to fire separately at individual high-value targets) but the return will be just great!
I stay firmly at my first post. I like it!
Thanks goba. I think this forum is haunted by trolls :(

I literally made a vod AND videos and only get some random downvotes without any real feedback.
Sorry but t/z/p is protoss favord, need HT nerfs.
04/03/2018 05:59 PMPosted by Freeborn
Please describe your criticism of the tempest.What's the problem with that idea? It does great damage over time, but in greater numbers it's very inefficient because the damage does not stack.The %-based damage means that it's easy to take down the health of a unit but hard to actually kill somthing, since the damage decreases with the targets HP.

It stops it from being a tanky unit, which feels like terraniffying it, but more importantly it makes it worthless vs. Brood Lords, since transfuse is a good skill to have. And I thought we were trying to make BCs more viable, not remove any hope of them ever being relevant at any point in the near future.

And the colossus change, I jumped to saying bad, but the other alternative as discribed by Locke is that it is really good, meaning that every game would be rush robo bay by the 4 minute mark and chrono a colossus like mad, once it is out you kinda just win.

Looking at the video, it looks like unless protoss screws up micro, protoss just wins by going mass colossus every game all game, like cyclone wars in TvT except that it is actually good against stim marines and you can't mass cyclones yourself. Either broken or useless.
04/03/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Freeborn
Colossus:

Changes:
- less hp(180)/shields(100),
- no longer massive
- slightly better acceleration, much higher movement speed
- continous single target beam attack that consists of 2 very fast ticking attacks with 3 damage each, which can switch between targets very quickly
- can attack while moving
- slightly slower turret movement and angle base targeting (instead of targeting closest enemy)
IMO, a good design should be fairly easy to balance without making the unit useless. A design based around high movement speed, high range, and high DPS with move-fire and cliffwalking is very difficult to balance without making the unit useless. Imagine if those Colossi had some Archon/Chargelot to buffer. The current Colossus can at least be flanked by ground armies to be taken advantage of. If you move the current Colossus, it cannot fire while it's moving, and it's slow enough that units can catch it out of position. Your Colossus can just constantly be moved around, making taking positional advantages impossible against someone with basic control skills. The DPS is high enough that some ground armies could endlessly be kited whilst just dying because there is no way to catch the Colossus. The current Colossus allows some ground armies to exist when the Colossus is on the field. This one just completely dominates all ground and forces the opponent to fully switch to air to be competitive. The exception is getting a lot of Tanks out.

04/03/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Freeborn
Voidray:

Changes:
- slightly better acceleration
- slightly longer buildtime
- Prismatic Alignment now has shorter duration, but also a shorter cooldown
- Prismatic Alignment adds +1 range
- Prismatic Alignment + armored damage reduced to +3
- Prismatic Alignment movement malus increased to 55% speed reduction
- Prismatic Alignment now increases attack speed by 33%
This makes the Void Ray so versatile with so much damage output that mass Void Ray could potentially take on many armies. I don't mind some more versatility with the Void Ray, but I'd prefer some attribute to focus on, such as only increased range for PA and a small general DPS increase regardless of PA being on or not, retaining the cooldown so mass Void Ray can't just constantly snipe units from afar. This makes it a precision strike tool rather than a "mass it up with Chargelots" unit.

04/03/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Freeborn
Tempest:

Changes:
- less hp(180)/shields(180)
- less armor(1)
- lower supply cost(4)
- merged air/ground attack at 15 range (previous air attack range)
- no bonus damage to massive
- base attack damage is now 7 but gains +2 damage per armor point and +3 per upgrade
- attack creates a damage over time effect on impact, lasts for 2 seconds, does not stack and reduces current enemy hp/shields by 30%

*Updated values:*
- DOT over 1 seconds instead of 2
- 3 damage per enemy armor
- 9 base damage

Video: https://streamable.com/a2b27
This is a completely blatant change of rules for how upgrades work. Aside from that, it's ridiculously strong. You can get so many potshots off from 15 range for free when being protected by a Protoss ground army. Meanwhile the opponent is losing much of their army HP at a fast rate for all units, not just Massive. This takes the issues of the HotS Tempest and massively amplifies it.

04/03/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Freeborn
Changes:
- changed the maximum number of units recalled to 9
- greatly reduced the radius of targeting selector
- reduced cooldown to 2 seconds, still global

Video: https://streamable.com/p0tzq
I actually kind of like this change. Makes Recall more versatile while keeping it useful but not allowing it to just pull the whole army back at once.
It's ironic that BobNinja the only thing that liked was......a nerf to Protoss (Reacall).
So much for a honest disussion.
04/04/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Goba
It's ironic that BobNinja the only thing that liked was......a nerf to Protoss (Reacall).
So much for a honest disussion.

The recall change is a HUGE buff, it means that I can just slap down a recall in the middle of my army whenever I get harassed and it will send back a squad of perfect size for me, so easy. The only time you recall a whole army is when you completely screw up. Even if you do recall a whole army, 9 units is plenty enough to recall all your splash units, and a second recall a whopping 2 seconds later can pull your immortals or sentries or whatever units you have.
04/04/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Goba
It's ironic that BobNinja the only thing that liked was......a nerf to Protoss (Reacall).
So much for a honest disussion.
Because honest discussion means I have to agree with a Protoss buff no matter what it is just because one of the nerfs happened to be a better design for an ability than the ability's current design, IMO? It's not even a nerf, it's a tradeoff.
04/04/2018 07:00 PMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
Makes Recall more versatile

04/04/2018 08:48 PMPosted by WireBender
it means that I can just slap down a recall in the middle of my army whenever I get harassed and it will send back a squad of perfect size for me, so easy. The only time you recall a whole army is when you completely screw up. Even if you do recall a whole army, 9 units is plenty enough to recall all your splash units, and a second recall a whopping 2 seconds later can pull your immortals or sentries or whatever units you have.
I don't care i you agree or not in the least. The changes proposed were not buffs or nerfs but changes to the ways units worked. The numbers can allways be fixed to make them balanced.
04/04/2018 10:35 PMPosted by Goba
I don't care i you agree or not in the least.
If that was true you wouldn't say
04/04/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Goba
So much for a honest disussion.


04/04/2018 10:35 PMPosted by Goba
The changes proposed were not buffs or nerfs but changes to the ways units worked. The numbers can allways be fixed to make them balanced.

If that's what you thought then you wouldn't say
04/04/2018 07:10 PMPosted by Goba
It's ironic that BobNinja the only thing that liked was......a nerf to Protoss (Reacall).
Idk, Protoss race has other problematic units too look at.
Stalker anti-air attack is not very good. So Toss units have somewhat weird interactions:
- pack of Void Rays dominates Stalkers, unless you have a lot of them (i'm talking about early game)
- same for Phoenix

Phoenix vs Phoenix = PITA, bad design due to fire on the move mechanic (and removing it will break Phoenix vs Muta/Phoenix vs Medivac interaction)

After that Toss have Carriers and Disruptors which are both slightly too good at lower levels. They can wreak a lot of havoc with minimum amount of effort invested.

Your Void Ray change is too OP vs zerg, b/c it increases dps vs queens/hydras *1.33 with PA. So mass void rays will dominate early game zerg.
Dunno about toss, but looks like mass voids will be better even than mass phoenix. At least with PA on. And then you can recall to shield batteries.

Tempests are definetely not lame, they are just niche units. But they are nice to have in a deathball, because they extend your "reach". Tempests allow you to deal some damage at range without attacking with all of your forces, and that's the reason why their dps is kept low.

30% over 1 second = about -25% hp on first hit for any unit. Simply too good vs anything with >200 hp.
Will it work vs buildings too?
I LOVE the mass recall change. The thing why I play terran and not protoss is because i really dont like the death ball jugability. This change could really improve the protoss race and make this game a better game to watch and play.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum