Missing defiler and valkerie

Co-op Missions Discussion
Long time there was a lack of Broodwar units in Starcraft 2 but in co-op nearly all of them returned. Even the brood queen. The only 2 units who are still missing are defiler and valkerie, they never appeared in co-op on any side. Am I alone who wants them back?
May be some new commanders could include them. Or Bliz could simply give defiler to Kerrigan or Abathur because they are the keepers of classic units.
Valkerie would 100% suit Stukov - instead of liberator. Liberators are strong, I have nothing on them, but from the lore Stukov is part of the UED, valkeries are their machines.
Stukov would have Infested Valkyrie, not Valkyrie.
Btw, I think we will have Overmind in future, and Defiler is perfect for him, for Valkyrie... I don't know who can have them... Han was the best, but they don't add to her... there is too the Dropship and the Shuttle missing.
IIRC editor data suggested that Stukov was going to have Infested Valkeyies but they scraped that in favour of invested Liberators. Possibly to save on having to make a brand new model. Infested Liberators function like Valkeyies anyway.
Imagine a Zerg commander with Defilers and Infestors (another unit still missing in coop). I really wanna see a Zerg focused on casters. Although whenever we see a zerg caster things like Vipers and Brood Queens happen, and they are quite game breaking in my opinion.
04/01/2018 04:25 PMPosted by LotharAxe
Imagine a Zerg commander with Defilers and Infestors (another unit still missing in coop). I really wanna see a Zerg focused on casters. Although whenever we see a zerg caster things like Vipers and Brood Queens happen, and they are quite game breaking in my opinion.
Pretty much most casters of all three factions are quite powerful in any incarnation. Casters are designed to be strong to reward good usage of the right abilities (since they require more button presses and clicking in order to do something), and in the case of Co-op, they are allowed to do even more ridiculous things like mind-control units and demolish everything since Amon cannot complain.

So that is the way it is. I really want Co-op infestors, too, because of the chaos they would create.

I would really like Valkyries in order to have a really durable and dangerous devoted Terran AA air unit, but Liberators are a form of replacement for them. They are not super durable, and need to be in decent numbers in order for their AA splash to be truly deadly, but of course, their cannons are very deadly. It would be nice to have a commander that can mass produce them for maximum carnage.
04/01/2018 04:25 PMPosted by LotharAxe
and Infestors (another unit still missing in coop)

Yeah, they too. But they are not from BW. Infestor could be given to Zagara btw as she has very low amount units and strategies.
For sure I can tell defiler and infestor can't be added to 1 commander as they are pretty similar. And I don't believe there will ever be 2 more zerg commanders because Bliz seem to stop creating new content for co-op.
04/01/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Zarxiel
there is too the Dropship and the Shuttle missing.

They really do nothing. Medivac is the same dropship but with additional functions. Btw medivac is missing in co-op too.
04/02/2018 02:17 AMPosted by Badman
04/01/2018 04:25 PMPosted by LotharAxe
and Infestors (another unit still missing in coop)

Yeah, they too. But they are not from BW. Infestor could be given to Zagara btw as she has very low amount units and strategies.
For sure I can tell defiler and infestor can't be added to 1 commander as they are pretty similar. And I don't believe there will ever be 2 more zerg commanders because Bliz seem to stop creating new content for co-op.
04/01/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Zarxiel
there is too the Dropship and the Shuttle missing.

They really do nothing. Medivac is the same dropship but with additional functions. Btw medivac is missing in co-op too.

In SC2 the Shuttles are massive ships, so can be the Hercules of the Protoss
I think Defilers would be too OP really. The fact that the enemy doesn't ever adjust their comp to what you're building and melee/heavy splash units like the Reaver are rare means that spamming Dark Swarm is basically an always easy-win strategy.
04/02/2018 09:35 AMPosted by foreignreign
I think Defilers would be too OP really. The fact that the enemy doesn't ever adjust their comp to what you're building and melee/heavy splash units like the Reaver are rare means that spamming Dark Swarm is basically an always easy-win strategy.

Defiler will not be more deadly then Artanis' archons with storms and additional shields. There so many OP stuff in co-op so defiler is not a problem.
04/02/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Badman
04/02/2018 09:35 AMPosted by foreignreign
I think Defilers would be too OP really. The fact that the enemy doesn't ever adjust their comp to what you're building and melee/heavy splash units like the Reaver are rare means that spamming Dark Swarm is basically an always easy-win strategy.

Defiler will not be more deadly then Artanis' archons with storms and additional shields. There so many OP stuff in co-op so defiler is not a problem.

Defilers op?Wtf man, you ever heard of abathur's vipers with 100 bio?
Those things are literally improved defilers.
04/02/2018 09:35 AMPosted by foreignreign
I think Defilers would be too OP really.

How would it be too OP compared to Viper's cloud for example?
I don't understand the desire for Valkyries, the dominion improved upon them and made Liberators. I don't mind the addition of Zerg and Terran casters(defiler/infestor, spectre) but I would like them to differ a little from the preexisting ones.
Queen/infestor overlap spawning units and crippling waves. Maybe the infestor could infest structures causing units to spawn at the cost of health from the structure. Maybe generate aberrations w/ timed life from high tier structures and broodlings from tier one structures? Life cost would bypass structure shields to limit spawns. The ability could spawn 1 Aberration or 3 broodlings per 3 seconds over 18 seconds where 1 unit hp would cost 1 structure hp.

Ascendants sorta took the mind blast of spectres, maybe they could still get their concussive blast. Mind control would work but again it overlaps. Maybe a destructive cone of telekinetic force that powers up for every unit killed by it? IE a skill based power overwhelming.
04/02/2018 11:39 AMPosted by Sticer
Ascendants sorta took the mind blast of spectres, maybe they could still get their concussive blast. Mind control would work but again it overlaps. Maybe a destructive cone of telekinetic force that powers up for every unit killed by it? IE a skill based power overwhelming.


To be fair, Psionic Lash (or Obliterate, as it is called in the game data), differs from Mind Blast in that it can target Structures in addition to units. In game data also shows they considered giving Spectres Dominate, which was the mind control channel ability Nova had in her WoL side mission and in Nova Covert Ops. I think there is still plenty of room for Spectres in coop even before considering new and creative ideas for them.
Defilers have Plague which would be really interesting to see in coop.
Imagine a map like Chain of Ascension in which you have to clean up some bases in the way. You would send some Defilers and shoot all that red goo over the units and buildings, and then... Wait 30~40 seconds. When you are back almost everything has 1 HP.

They would be outstanding to soften objectives before pushing, and would be great as defensive units too, because they can shield allies from ranged attacks with the Dark Swarm.
04/02/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Axiom
04/02/2018 09:35 AMPosted by foreignreign
I think Defilers would be too OP really.

How would it be too OP compared to Viper's cloud for example?
Because units by default will at least try to move out of the cloud to attack.

If you Dark Swarm your own Defiler it will tank an infinite amount of ranged enemies.
04/02/2018 01:17 PMPosted by foreignreign
If you Dark Swarm your own Defiler it will tank an infinite amount of ranged enemies.


What you describe is a problem with AI not the spell itself, but yeah I agree it outperforms the cloud in some situations, while it would be completely useless vs banelings for example.
Still wouldn't classify it as "too OP", especially since it's usage can further be balanced with research cost, energy cost and spell duration.

On a side note, this is co-op, half the stuff is designed to be OP, that's a great part of it's charm.
Sure, there's a lot of OP stuff in co-op, but I can't think of a single unit that completely stomps at least half of the current unit compositions the way Dark Swarm would.

Like, it's comparable to Vorazun's DT spam except Zerglings are dirt cheap and you only need a handful of Defilers to cover a battlefield in Swarms (assuming Defilers also get their Consume ability).
It's an interesting idea to explore, the final balancing would be done by the dev team ofcourse.

But like I said there are many ways to tone down it's power:
-make defilers more expensive
-make the research itself more expensive /take longer to complete
-increase energy cost
-place some sort of a cooldown
-reduce it's duration
-perhaps change damage reduction from 100% to a lower percentage

I personally like the mechanic and would love to see it in co-op, but I understand your point of view that it counters too many things at the moment.
IIRC, Defiler Mounds require Hive-tech so it's already kind of something you have to take a bit of time to tech to. I think the main problem with figuring out how much they should cost is also figuring out what kind of commander would have Defilers so I can't really comment on resource costs beyond that really.

Also something I forgot is that enemies also benefit from the effects of Dark Swarm, so they'd have to also balance that alongside your ally, since you could effectively make your ally useless if they're using only ranged units. If they turn Dark Swarm into a defensive buff that just reduces damage by a %, then I feel like it'd lose its uniqueness since they'd essentially be Conservators with Plague at that point. But other people might be OK with that I guess.

It just seems like a mess to balance in co-op imo.
Valkyries were UED tech that the Dominion ever copied. What Valks were left were destroyed when Kerrigan wiped out the UED fleet.

Blizz never explicity says it but it looks like the Liberator is based on that design just modified.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum