State of the Raven

General Discussion
If the balance team are adamant at nerfing the raven along with most players, I suggest this plausible nerf:

AAM now reduces armor by -3 for 10 seconds instead of 21. This will cut down the armor by -3 of the affected unit for 10 seconds instead of 21.

This will allow the affected unit to recuperate and return to battle at its original state in terms of armor in less than half the time as required previously.

For compensation, the viking will get a 25 hp buff boosting its hp from 125 hp to 150 hp. This will help keep Terran's late game intact relying more on viking raven instead of merely ravens to compete in the late game.

A milder nerf to the raven and a stronger buff to the viking will keep the intended effect of redesigning Terran's late game without nerfing it.

*Note: I have made some changes to this thread after making some errors.*
04/01/2018 06:55 AMPosted by Raver
1. Radius reduced from 0.72/1.44/2.88 with a respective 30/15/7.5 damage to a radius of 0.72 with 30 damage.

2. Armor reducing went from being a permanent -3 armor (can make armor negative) to a temporary -3 armor for 21 seconds.


The AAM was never a permanent spell since 4.0 came out, it was always a temporary one. It was also buffed a few times, such as no delay, less energy to cast, and a larger radius.

on a side note, I remember when the ghost had the anti-armor drone in beta and thinking it was trash. The raven spell is MUCH better.
04/01/2018 06:55 AMPosted by Raver
I was curious on how the raven changed specifically with its seeker missle being redesigned to the AAM missle. Basically, the redesign was merely two nerfs to the spell:

1. Radius reduced from 0.72/1.44/2.88 with a respective 30/15/7.5 damage to a radius of 0.72 with 30 damage.

2. Armor reducing went from being a permanent -3 armor (can make armor negative) to a temporary -3 armor for 21 seconds.

Hence the orange paint for 21 seconds instead of the red paint until the missle hit.

Source:

http://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Legacy_of_the_Void)


That seeker missile entry is not accurate at all. It is much closer to the current AAM than seeker missile.

Seeker missile was 100 damage with a 2 second delay that did not decrease armor at all. It lit up the target red only to show what unit was being targeted and to indicate to the opponent to retreat or split. The red color had no status change. It also cost 125 energy. You can see the spell in the HotS version of the Raven (although it cost less and had a longer delay than LotV, if I'm remembering the numbers correctly)

http://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)

When they first changed it to the AAM, it was indeed a fairly significant nerf. It basically added the -3 armor effect and an enhanced munitions upgrade in exchange for -70 damage. You would need to hit each target over 23 times to get the same amount of damage, and multiple casts had a smaller effect.

However, since then they have buffed the AAM significantly.

Delay time reduced from 2.14 seconds to 1.43 seconds, and then removed entirely.
Energy cost reduced from 125 to 100 to 75.
Splash radius increased from 2.4 to 2.88 (although damage falls off, putting more importance to the armor reduction)

Armor reduction was never permanent, and always could reduce armor below 0.
1. Radius reduced from 0.72/1.44/2.88 with a respective 30/15/7.5 damage to a radius of 0.72 with 30 damage.

2. Armor reducing went from being a permanent -3 armor (can make armor negative) to a temporary -3 armor for 21 seconds.


The AAM was never a permanent spell since 4.0 came out, it was always a temporary one. It was also buffed a few times, such as no delay, less energy to cast, and a larger radius.

on a side note, I remember when the ghost had the anti-armor drone in beta and thinking it was trash. The raven spell is MUCH better.


I was curious on how the raven changed specifically with its seeker missle being redesigned to the AAM missle. Basically, the redesign was merely two nerfs to the spell:

1. Radius reduced from 0.72/1.44/2.88 with a respective 30/15/7.5 damage to a radius of 0.72 with 30 damage.

2. Armor reducing went from being a permanent -3 armor (can make armor negative) to a temporary -3 armor for 21 seconds.

Hence the orange paint for 21 seconds instead of the red paint until the missle hit.

Source:

http://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Legacy_of_the_Void)


That seeker missile entry is not accurate at all. It is much closer to the current AAM than seeker missile.

Seeker missile was 100 damage with a 2 second delay that did not decrease armor at all. It lit up the target red only to show what unit was being targeted and to indicate to the opponent to retreat or split. The red color had no status change. It also cost 125 energy. You can see the spell in the HotS version of the Raven (although it cost less and had a longer delay than LotV, if I'm remembering the numbers correctly)

http://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)

When they first changed it to the AAM, it was indeed a fairly significant nerf. It basically added the -3 armor effect and an enhanced munitions upgrade in exchange for -70 damage. You would need to hit each target over 23 times to get the same amount of damage, and multiple casts had a smaller effect.

However, since then they have buffed the AAM significantly.

Delay time reduced from 2.14 seconds to 1.43 seconds, and then removed entirely.
Energy cost reduced from 125 to 100 to 75.
Splash radius increased from 2.4 to 2.88 (although damage falls off, putting more importance to the armor reduction)

Armor reduction was never permanent, and always could reduce armor below 0.


Thanks for the heads up guys. I realized I made a mistake with the details surrounding the redesign of the raven after looking up the HotS raven and I removed the first half of the thread discussing the raven redesign. However, I left the second part discussing my proposed nerf to the raven and buff to the viking as that is still relevant regardless.
If the balance team wants it to be a support spell and not a spam aoe spell they need to remove the stacking or the damage entirely and just have it affect armor.
04/01/2018 08:45 AMPosted by Ace
If the balance team wants it to be a support spell and not a spam aoe spell they need to remove the stacking or the damage entirely and just have it affect armor.


I am fine with the removing of stacking idea, but not with removing the damage entirely. It still needs to damage its affected units to be worth using.
Raven damage output is fine as it is.
The stacking damage is needed to combat late game Protoss and Zerg armies.

Raven is the only unit that gives Terran a chance in the late game. Even with Ravens Terran has serious problems late game in TvP which is why Maru all-in and cheese every game.

But I do support the idea of nerfing the duration of the armor nerf. 21 seconds is excessive and not needed.
This what the balance team should do to AAM:

1) Make it area/location cast

This would allow players to dodge it and it would reward skill shots.

Storm,fungal,blinding cloud,EMP and forcefield are all area/location cast spells

2) Make it do non-stacking damage over time

This would make it similar to fungal growth, a DoT spell that debuffs the units.

It should do 40 non-stacking damage over 20 seconds so it can degrade the enemy army between engagements.

3) Combination of 1) and 2)

Best of both worlds and makes the spell interesting to fight and use.
04/01/2018 09:05 AMPosted by PlayLikeMaru

But I do support the idea of nerfing the duration of the armor nerf. 21 seconds is excessive and not needed.


It is needed if you consider engagements,HP pools and unit movement speeds.
04/01/2018 09:05 AMPosted by PlayLikeMaru
Raven damage output is fine as it is.
The stacking damage is needed to combat late game Protoss and Zerg armies.

Raven is the only unit that gives Terran a chance in the late game. Even with Ravens Terran has serious problems late game in TvP which is why Maru all-in and cheese every game.

But I do support the idea of nerfing the duration of the armor nerf. 21 seconds is excessive and not needed.


Yeah exactly. When you see higher level Terran players play the late game. They usually have a substantial amount of ravens and a small amount of vikings. Having it change to a more balanced amount of ravens and vikings would be ideal.

Also, reducing the duration of the AAM spell from 21 to 10 seconds negates the need to produce more ravens since having more ravens will not increase the duration. Then with the viking hp buff from 125 to 150, it will encourage higher production of vikings, win/win.
Also don't buff the viking, buff the BC so it's stronger in direct combat. Terran needs a late game unit to work towards.

Change the damage model so it hits harder but fires slower and make Tactical Jump require vision or share a cooldown with Yamato Cannon.

The BC should be as scary as ultralisks when it comes to head on engagements.
04/01/2018 09:12 AMPosted by Raver
04/01/2018 09:05 AMPosted by PlayLikeMaru
Raven damage output is fine as it is.
The stacking damage is needed to combat late game Protoss and Zerg armies.

Raven is the only unit that gives Terran a chance in the late game. Even with Ravens Terran has serious problems late game in TvP which is why Maru all-in and cheese every game.

But I do support the idea of nerfing the duration of the armor nerf. 21 seconds is excessive and not needed.


Yeah exactly. When you see higher level Terran players play the late game. They usually have a substantial amount of ravens and a small amount of vikings. Having it change to a more balanced amount of ravens and vikings would be ideal.

Also, reducing the duration of the AAM spell from 21 to 10 seconds negates the need to produce more ravens since having more ravens will not increase the duration. Then with the viking hp buff from 125 to 150, it will encourage higher production of vikings, win/win.


Mass raven is a result of a bad BC design.

You don't want to overbuff the viking because that will cause nothing but viking wars in TvT.

Vikings are fine, BC's are not. Which causes ravens to fill the gap.
This what the balance team should do to AAM:

1) Make it area/location cast

This would allow players to dodge it and it would reward skill shots.

Storm,fungal,blinding cloud,EMP and forcefield are all area/location cast spells

2) Make it do non-stacking damage over time

This would make it similar to fungal growth, a DoT spell that debuffs the units.

It should do 40 non-stacking damage over 20 seconds so it can degrade the enemy army between engagements.

3) Combination of 1) and 2)

Best of both worlds and makes the spell interesting to fight and use.


To sum it all up, your changes to the raven are basically a sledgehammer when a scapel is necessary. It could create more problems then it will solve.

The problem the balance team is trying to solve is mass ravens, which can be solved with far less changes. No need to redesign it when tinkering with it is enough.

Yeah exactly. When you see higher level Terran players play the late game. They usually have a substantial amount of ravens and a small amount of vikings. Having it change to a more balanced amount of ravens and vikings would be ideal.

Also, reducing the duration of the AAM spell from 21 to 10 seconds negates the need to produce more ravens since having more ravens will not increase the duration. Then with the viking hp buff from 125 to 150, it will encourage higher production of vikings, win/win.


Mass raven is a result of a bad BC design.

You don't want to overbuff the viking because that will cause nothing but viking wars in TvT.

Vikings are fine, BC's are not. Which causes ravens to fill the gap.


I am fine with a BC buff over a viking buff, but it will require a redesign of the BC due to its teleportation ability being a hindrance in improving its attack.

I suppose the balance team is trying to go for the path of least resistance by buffing the viking over the BC.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I could care less how they fix Terran's late game. As long as they use a method that is superior to what they suggested in the past community update.
04/01/2018 09:25 AMPosted by Raver
This what the balance team should do to AAM:

1) Make it area/location cast

This would allow players to dodge it and it would reward skill shots.

Storm,fungal,blinding cloud,EMP and forcefield are all area/location cast spells

2) Make it do non-stacking damage over time

This would make it similar to fungal growth, a DoT spell that debuffs the units.

It should do 40 non-stacking damage over 20 seconds so it can degrade the enemy army between engagements.

3) Combination of 1) and 2)

Best of both worlds and makes the spell interesting to fight and use.


To sum it all up, your changes to the raven are basically a sledgehammer when a scapel is necessary.


Currently AAM cannot be dodged(because it's a lock on cast) and the damage stacks.

Making it area/location cast allows it to be dodged and brings it's AOE design more inline with the rest of the AOE spells.

Making it's damage non-stacking over time solves the stacking, and I already said that it should do 40 damage over 20 seconds. Which would make like a longer lasting fungal growth that would help between engagements.

04/01/2018 09:25 AMPosted by Raver
This what the balance team should do to AAM:

1) Make it area/location cast

This would allow players to dodge it and it would reward skill shots.

Storm,fungal,blinding cloud,EMP and forcefield are all area/location cast spells

2) Make it do non-stacking damage over time

This would make it similar to fungal growth, a DoT spell that debuffs the units.

It should do 40 non-stacking damage over 20 seconds so it can degrade the enemy army between engagements.

3) Combination of 1) and 2)

Best of both worlds and makes the spell interesting to fight and use.


To sum it all up, your changes to the raven are basically a sledgehammer when a scapel is necessary. It could create more problems then it will solve.

The problem the balance team is trying to solve is mass ravens, which can be solved with far less changes. No need to redesign it when tinkering with it is enough.

...

Mass raven is a result of a bad BC design.

You don't want to overbuff the viking because that will cause nothing but viking wars in TvT.

Vikings are fine, BC's are not. Which causes ravens to fill the gap.


I am fine with a BC buff over a viking buff, but it will require a redesign of the BC due to its teleportation ability being a hindrance in improving its attack.


I explained the BC changes here:

04/01/2018 09:13 AMPosted by MyOhMind
Also don't buff the viking, buff the BC so it's stronger in direct combat. Terran needs a late game unit to work towards.

Change the damage model so it hits harder but fires slower and make Tactical Jump require vision or share a cooldown with Yamato Cannon.

The BC should be as scary as ultralisks when it comes to head on engagements.
No one has a problem with AAM's armor reduction as far as I know. It's the fact that spamming a ton of missiles erases entire armies, which the armor reduction doesn't really affect.
The balance team should do like they announced 3+ weeks back and nerf the AAM damage to 5 and buff Viking HP by +10 as a compensation.

The « you can’t nerf the weakest race » argument cannot be used anymore as Terran is probably the strongest race at the moment. I just wish the balance team would stop listening to Terran whining and actually improve the game.
04/01/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Velitey
.



The « you can’t nerf the weakest race » argument cannot be used anymore as Protoss is probably the strongest race at the moment. I just wish the balance team would stop listening to Protoss whining and actually improve the game.



The « you can’t nerf the weakest race » argument cannot be used anymore as Zerg is probably the strongest race at the moment. I just wish the balance team would stop listening to Zerg whining and actually improve the game.
04/01/2018 10:02 AMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
No one has a problem with AAM's armor reduction as far as I know. It's the fact that spamming a ton of missiles erases entire armies, which the armor reduction doesn't really affect.


I thought the armor reduction was the crux of the issue, since without armor, it made it a ton easier to reduce said armies. However, I won't disagree with you on stacking damage being an issue as well.

04/01/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Velitey
The balance team should do like they announced 3+ weeks back and nerf the AAM damage to 5 and buff Viking HP by +10 as a compensation.

The « you can’t nerf the weakest race » argument cannot be used anymore as Terran is probably the strongest race at the moment. I just wish the balance team would stop listening to Terran whining and actually improve the game.


The problem with this is that the +10 HP viking buff is too little and reducing it from 30 damage to 5 damage is too much even if the anti armor spell is unaffected.

Like if they reduced it to 15 damage or removed the stacking and buffed the viking by 25 hp instead then I could possibly be on board with that suggestion. I just know the balance team could do better than this.
04/01/2018 10:02 AMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
No one has a problem with AAM's armor reduction as far as I know. It's the fact that spamming a ton of missiles erases entire armies, which the armor reduction doesn't really affect.


I thought the armor reduction was the crux of the issue


That's never been the issue with AAM.

The issue with AAM comes down to the fact that because it's a lock-on cast it can't be dodged. Making it an area/location cast would solve this.
04/01/2018 10:02 AMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
No one has a problem with AAM's armor reduction as far as I know. It's the fact that spamming a ton of missiles erases entire armies, which the armor reduction doesn't really affect.


I would argue that the armor reduction may be slightly OP in early mid game while spamming missiles late game is balanced.

Every marine doing 3 more damage in an early mid game attack is really strong, it is like a stim on top of a stim. When a timing attack is perfected build order wise and hits just as you get stim it might break the game if you combine it with 3 extra damage on every marine.

Missile spamming late game is only strong if you have a huge number of Ravens and the opponent clumps up his units in a tight ball.
Every race has strong counter to Ravens in the late game (Tempest, Storm, Feedback, Emp, Parastic bomb, multiprong attacks, pre-spreading your units etc.)

There is a reason why all pro players still avoid late game in TvP. If Ravens were so strong Terran pro players would not be desperate to end the game before late game. But they still try to avoid late game, which is a clear suggestion that late game Ravens are not as strong as some people claim. They are perfectly balanced at that stage.

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