Zerg dominance at WCS Austin

General Discussion
So, looking at the playoff bracket (Round of 16 and further) for WCS Austin as of today, Zerg seems to be doing quite well: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2018_WCS_Austin

This is interesting because the Zerg players in this season's GSL were struggling (in the Round of 16 in the GSL, Korean Zergs lost 5 series and won 1 against Protoss, while going 2:2 in series against Terran).

The latest patch did not change PvsZ balance. I think Blizzard should still consider balance for the top Korean level the most important, but we need more data and more matches at the top Korean level.

At the moment though, it appears that at least for WCS Austin, which IMO, is a level of play below the top Korean level, even though they are still pro players, Zerg is doing okay.
How about not using tournaments(small sample sizes) to balance or judge whole entire races and match ups?.

It's so stupid listening to people who can't even A-move correctly use tournaments to say X race is OP or UP.

Have some self awareness and get out of this echo chamber mentality.
06/02/2018 09:35 PMPosted by MyOhMind
How about not using tournaments(small sample sizes) to balance or judge whole entire races and match ups?.

It's so stupid listening to people who can't even A-move correctly used tournaments to say X race is OP or UP.
lol it's every foreign tournament for a long long time. You'd have to be blind not to see it's a real trend. I think the problem is that they balance for the very top korean level, but zerg is easier to approximate top level play even if you have foreigner skill, while for other races that gap in skill makes a bigger difference, so suddenly you have all these foreign zergs who play near "korean level".
06/02/2018 09:45 PMPosted by PatchRandom
06/02/2018 09:35 PMPosted by MyOhMind
How about not using tournaments(small sample sizes) to balance or judge whole entire races and match ups?.

It's so stupid listening to people who can't even A-move correctly used tournaments to say X race is OP or UP.
lol it's every foreign tournament for a long long time. You'd have to be blind not to see it's a real trend. I think the problem is that they balance for the very top korean level, but zerg is easier to approximate top level play even if you have foreigner skill, while for other races that gap in skill makes a bigger difference, so suddenly you have all these foreign zergs who play near "korean level".


Instead of looking at balance, look at design. SC2 isn't in bad shape overall.

Zerg has a great overall design, with the exception of the swarm host. It's macro focused but can reward good micro.

Protoss has a simple but effective design with a very powerful late game that ranges from balanced to broken because of interceptor cost. Toss is both macro and micro dependent.

Terran when it comes to bio and mech is not in a bad position but it falters in the late game stages where Zerg and Protoss excel because they have powerful T3 units worth getting and supporting. It's the "kitchen sink" race, filled with underused upgrades and theoretically the most diverse unit comps but because certain unit's either get nerfed out of the meta or just aren't well designed which tends to cause limited viability past certain points or at all. Terran is the most micro heavy race because nearly every unit has something that it can do and macro has to be on point to compete with Zergs larva mechanics and Protoss warpgate+CB.
06/02/2018 09:35 PMPosted by MyOhMind
How about not using tournaments(small sample sizes) to balance or judge whole entire races and match ups?.


http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
06/03/2018 05:42 AMPosted by JackONeill
06/02/2018 09:35 PMPosted by MyOhMind
How about not using tournaments(small sample sizes) to balance or judge whole entire races and match ups?.


http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/


TvsZ was 45.38% in May. But the patch came out in mid May so I am assuming half the data in May was before the patch. Supposedly, the patch helped mainly helped Terran against Ultralisks but the downside for Terran was mass Ravens aren't as effective anymore.

I would like to see more TvsZ matches among the top Koreans. So far, it looks winnable by both sides at the top Korean level. But I think we need more matches and data for this.
Zerg Dominance guys

TvZ - 11-11
PvZ - 9-10

i don't know about you, but that seems pretty balanced.

meanwhile

TvP - 16-8.
Terran is just too strong right now that's just facts, the buffed marauders are a joke to competitive game, they have the best crowd control in the game, and yet they are so cost officient for 100/25 having insane DPS, insane mobility, insane tankiness the unit needs tweaking lmao
ZvT 50%
ZvP 52%

« Zerg dominance »
06/03/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Velitey
ZvT 50%
ZvP 52%

« Zerg dominance »


https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2018_WCS_Austin/Playoffs
At every non Korean tournament Zerg always seems to be the most represented race in the Round of 16 and beyond.
06/03/2018 11:33 AMPosted by BullyHunter
06/03/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Velitey
ZvT 50%
ZvP 52%

« Zerg dominance »


https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2018_WCS_Austin/Playoffs


now go look at the actual winrates.

oh and while you're at it. make sure you look at that TvP winrate since you were one of the people making a big deal about the fact that a bunch of zergs showed up to this tournament.
06/03/2018 11:34 AMPosted by Instinctz
you were one of the people making a big deal about the fact that a bunch of zergs showed up to this tournament.


i didnt but feel free to quote me.
06/03/2018 11:33 AMPosted by BullyHunter
06/03/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Velitey
ZvT 50%
ZvP 52%

« Zerg dominance »


https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2018_WCS_Austin/Playoffs


so, in ro4: 2 zergs, 1 toss, 1 terran. even with 10 zergs in ro16. so everything is fine i guess.

btw *imtocoolforanactualargumentthatswhyijustpostalinkcoolme*
06/03/2018 12:43 PMPosted by TryHarD
btw *imtocoolforanactualargumentthatswhyijustpostalinkcoolme*


Im not making an argument, just saying Austin has been dominated by Zergs, which is fact. Having a closer representation in the ro4 is inevitable if there are 5 ZvZs.
06/03/2018 12:57 PMPosted by BullyHunter
06/03/2018 12:43 PMPosted by TryHarD
btw *imtocoolforanactualargumentthatswhyijustpostalinkcoolme*


Im not making an argument, just saying Austin has been dominated by Zergs, which is fact. Having a closer representation in the ro4 is inevitable if there are 5 ZvZs.


Austin had 20+ zergs enter, which was more then Terran and Protoss.

It's less "domination" and more of flooding the market.
If you start with 10 pro zergs, 2 pro terrans and 1 pro protoss, it isn't surprising that the final rounds will be zerg dominated.

* with pro zerg/terran/protoss i mean full time players.
ZvZ 50% so I think everything is fine ; D
06/03/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Aronax
ZvZ 50% so I think everything is fine ; D


Technically 100%. Zerg has a 100% ZvZ winrate.

I'm not sure exactly why na and eu are more zerg heavy, but let's just avoid that whole debate here since nobody actually does.

The fact is they are, so if half the population (just using an example number) is zerg and one quarter are Terran and protoss each. Even with perfect balance zerg should win roughly 50% of those tournaments, and represent 50% of the population at any given stage on average. This is also assuming all players are pretty equal. If 1 player is better than the rest then it skews results. Since we are human, the results are always going to be akewed by that alone.
Assuming that the skill and intelligence of Terran/Protoss/Zerg players is equal (hardly somebody can argue with this), the probability of finding more gifted/strong players is greater in the population that has a bigger base (Zergs).
If the win-rates were 33/33/33% it stands to reason that the Zergs are not balanced properly (they are underpowered).
So it is normal to expect an over-rapresentation of zergs at the highest levels.

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