Cradle of Death feedback

Co-op Missions Discussion
Prev 1 2 3 5 Next
Thanks for the great write up.

I think I agree with pretty much everything. In regards to payload upgrades, it's shame they are gone. But the only way I could see Blizzard keeping them is if they were a core mechanic of the mission.
What did the payload upgrades do and how do I play your original map?
07/10/2018 02:31 PMPosted by Jailbar
What did the payload upgrades do and how do I play your original map?

Blizzard forcibly removed my version from the Arcade so you can't play it anymore; but the upgrades were a series of mutually exclusive choices: Cliff jumping vs payload can load units like a bunker (any race any unit type could fire from within), anti-air or detection, spider mines (Nova style) or AoE psionic blast, rocket boosters or a healing drone.

I'd expect much simpler upgrades with no choices if they were going to tie them into the bonus objective in their version, though.
07/11/2018 03:23 PMPosted by TheSkunk
07/10/2018 02:31 PMPosted by Jailbar
What did the payload upgrades do and how do I play your original map?

Blizzard forcibly removed my version from the Arcade so you can't play it anymore; but the upgrades were a series of mutually exclusive choices: Cliff jumping vs payload can load units like a bunker (any race any unit type could fire from within), anti-air or detection, spider mines (Nova style) or AoE psionic blast, rocket boosters or a healing drone.

I'd expect much simpler upgrades with no choices if they were going to tie them into the bonus objective in their version, though.


Yeah some of those sound hard to balance but anyone could benefit from a healing or damage aura which you could choose one of the two then upgrade it with gas/minerals. That would be cool.

And agreed that the constructs suck - I'm glad to hear your explanation of why they might have been added. I would rather have a series of harmless "checkpoints" to keep the carts moving than the stupid constructs though.
The new CoD feels really restrictive and amplifies the lazy ally problem CoA and L&L has, usually on those two maps I can at least leave a unit afk next to the objective while I go clear out the next area, but here I have to wait for my ally to slug along before doing anything or take heavy damage from constructs.

Kerrigan is the only unit i've found consistently sustainable under construct & enemy fire but that still doesn't let me clear the actual objective, the construct sitting ontop of the bomb spot.
With ally's who do the bonus first instead of objective then bonus, it feels slow and boring to play since all i'm left to do is wait until my ally's truck respawns, moves over to the main objective and continues the mission.

I would love to have any of Skunk's suggestions be added to speedup the main objective since that feels like the biggest part weighing it down right now.
You're forced to go as fast as the truck can go and you're forced to go when your ally decides to go; which again, really amplifies the bad ally problem
Nice analyse. When do they hire you?
The other player should be able to control the truck if the owner doesn't touch it.

Lost a few games with new players that didn't understand English. (even though they typed in English)

Me: You have to move your truck to the construct.
Ally: Where?
Me:The big red thing that is a construct.
Ally: Where is the truck?
Me: It is where you left it. Sitting right next to your barracks.
Ally: Why is the time running out?
Me: MOVE YOUR %#$#$% TRUCK YOU STUPID #$%%!#$
Ally: WHERE IS IT???
Me: You're too stupid to chew gum and breathe at the same time...why are you trying to play a game too?

And then I quit the game with 5 seconds to spare and his truck still hasn't moved.
The official version of this mission is something I have come to hate.

The Pace
The truck is unbearably slow. This is counter to the mission's fast pace, since it drives slower than nearly anything else. This problem magnifies the slower-reacting partner.
Please increase the truck's speed.

There are too many Constructs, and in too close of proximity to the others. This slows the pace down because a successful takedown of one Construct often means pulling back your forces so the next Construct doesn't tear them up before the truck is moved up.
Please cut down the number of Constructs.

The trucks don't seem to get a speed boost from Zagara's Frenzy or Alarak's Empower, worsening the pace problem.
Please let the trucks benefit from all abilities and calldowns.

The first southeast pair of Constructs are next to each other, which forces both trucks to be there at the exact same time, are unlike any other grouping. It is annoying when the other player is not on the ball, or for team playstyles that has one lead attacker with the other covering the rear (think Zagara and Karax).
Please allow both players to move either truck.

When a truck is lost to the enemy or used for detonation, there is no way to pre-set the destination of the next truck. If the same dynamic as Dehaka’s den was used for the factory, allowing the rally point to be set, that would be handy since immediately post-detonation is not as chaotic.
Please give players factory control.

"An attack wave is coming for your truck."
These happen far too often, feel more annoying than threatening, and will happen even if the new truck is sitting inside your base, just spawned after a bonus. They shouldn't be drop-ins every time, particularly if they are beefed up.
Please cut down on the attack waves.

Truck Upgrades
The truck factory should also allow for one-only upgrades, per truck. The choices could be:
A) Add nitrous oxide for a faster truck.
B) Add armor plating or shield generator for more defense.
C) Add gun turret for self-defense. It should have some strength (unlike Stetmann’s water pistols).
These would be once per truck, so the player can select a different one for each truck. The factory should be the F4 key if the truck is not available, and allow pre-setting the upgrade before the truck comes out.
Please add truck upgrades for replayability.

Construct Attack Radius
It would help if the attack radius appeared on the screen, with larger Constructs having longer range.
Please add a visual radius.

Boring Terrain
Monotonous and boring terrain, with no signs of life, yet the Belshir gliders are caged everywhere?
Please add some life to this map.

Enemy Composition
Having fewer differences in the all-races composition of the enemy forces gets tiring. It lowers the variety between rounds of the map.
Please create traditional single-race variations. Keep the kitchen sink version to add variety.

Bonuses eat Trucks
This may be an extension of the truck’s slow speed, but the completion of the bonus should not eat a truck.
Please speed up the trucks.

Original Nuked
The damnatio memoriae of the original is creator-hostile and player-hostile. I cannot see any reason behind this move, considering the chilling effect it creates. It discourages new creations not just in StarCraft 2 but across all of Blizzard's games.
Please bring this back so everyone can try it.

F4 Key
It was not clear to me that F4 selected the truck. This threw off my usual group numbers until then. If adding control for both trucks, set the other player’s to F5.
Please show this text someplace.
08/09/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Gungnir
The trucks don't seem to get a speed boost from Zagara's Frenzy or Alarak's Empower, worsening the pace problem.
Please let the trucks benefit from all abilities and calldowns.
You don't think Zagara giving the truck up to a 70% movement speed boost is overpowered?

08/09/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Gungnir
The first southeast pair of Constructs are next to each other, which forces both trucks to be there at the exact same time, are unlike any other grouping. It is annoying when the other player is not on the ball, or for team playstyles that has one lead attacker with the other covering the rear (think Zagara and Karax).
Please allow both players to move either truck.
The south sectors are the final stages of the map. By general gameplay standards, this should be the most challenging part so it should be no surprise that you face 2 Constructs at the same time.

And you don't need 2 trucks for this bit, it's only ideal to have both to minimize losses.

08/09/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Gungnir
When a truck is lost to the enemy or used for detonation, there is no way to pre-set the destination of the next truck. If the same dynamic as Dehaka’s den was used for the factory, allowing the rally point to be set, that would be handy since immediately post-detonation is not as chaotic.
Please give players factory control.
Truck control is a core mechanic of this map. Allowing players to set truck rally points from the factory oversimplifies that to a point of handholding and, at worst, makes truck control bit of an afterthought.

08/09/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Gungnir
There are too many Constructs, and in too close of proximity to the others. This slows the pace down because a successful takedown of one Construct often means pulling back your forces so the next Construct doesn't tear them up before the truck is moved up.
Please cut down the number of Constructs.
Like above, you risk oversimplifying the map without proper balance.
You don't think Zagara giving the truck up to a 70% movement speed boost is overpowered?


Zagara's Frenzy being overpowered is a different issue. For a mission-critical unit, it should get the boost.

Truck control is a core mechanic of this map. Allowing players to set truck rally points from the factory oversimplifies that to a point of handholding and, at worst, makes truck control bit of an afterthought.


Setting a rally point still needs to be set and managed, it's not autopilot. It just keeps the truck's spawning in line with the overall game mechanics. I think it adds optional complexity - If you still have an outdated rally point you're going to have the truck going in the wrong direction.

08/09/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Cybernetic
Like above, you risk oversimplifying the map without proper balance.


Taking out just a few Constructs would do the job.
08/09/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Gungnir
The first southeast pair of Constructs are next to each other, which forces both trucks to be there at the exact same time, are unlike any other grouping.
They can still be taken out one by one from an angle.
https://imgur.com/a/lwA3L7D

08/09/2018 08:22 PMPosted by Gungnir
C) Add gun turret for self-defense. It should have some strength (unlike Stetmann’s water pistols).

Having the truck have an attack might make them more targeted by the enemies
Anyway, i like the original truck upgrades.
It opens up a lot of interesting play.
08/09/2018 10:31 PMPosted by Gungnir
Zagara's Frenzy being overpowered is a different issue. For a mission-critical unit, it should get the boost.
But it doesn't make it less relevant. Anything getting a potential 70% movement speed increase is overpowered.

08/09/2018 10:31 PMPosted by Gungnir
Setting a rally point still needs to be set and managed, it's not autopilot. It just keeps the truck's spawning in line with the overall game mechanics. I think it adds optional complexity - If you still have an outdated rally point you're going to have the truck going in the wrong direction.
Trucks are supposed to be entirely manually controlled. Setting rally points for the trucks partially defeats that purpose.

08/09/2018 10:31 PMPosted by Gungnir
Taking out just a few Constructs would do the job.
Making the map easy, perhaps a little too easy, seems to be common theme with some of your suggestions.
I would have no problem with the waves being tougher. They seem pretty weak.
It would be really awesome if one could actually upgrade the payload to make it more durable, faster etc. The in return have a finite number. maybe even having to buy them. Its balancing resources. Just like the AI bonus objectives on the map which name i always forget.

But i gotta admit the Cradle of death in its current form is actually my least favorite map.
I think that adding a new deployment point for the trucks for each objective (From north, to left, to right) can help speed things up, and make the side objective be slightly less frustrating. Losing a truck, then starting from your base again can be annoying.

Either that or let rushing the main objective finish the side objective (like saying it's in the blast radius) So if you can't beat the main objective before the side objective, you can go the easier route of just doing the side objective.
The problem of this map is that it requires players to come into combat really early and we have to sacrifice early game economy for more army. Also the losses tend to be far greater on this map than on others. I suggest that the expansion should be changed into high-yield crystals and lower the number of patches so that players can ramp up faster. On maps like Dead of Night, I think it may be better to have 1 or 2 vespene geysers to be a high-yield one. The lack of resource on this map hurts snowballing of army a lot - and to compensate for additional resources, enemies could spawn more often and more fiercely. Similiar problem also exist on Amon's scythe - the expansion comes way too late if players choose their 2nd silver to be the one at the expansion.
07/11/2018 03:23 PMPosted by TheSkunk

I'd expect much simpler upgrades with no choices if they were going to tie them into the bonus objective in their version, though.

Monk said that the philosophy behind bonus objectives was making the game harder.
Objectives would basically be hard and a half or brutal and a half in difficulty.
If bonus objectives gave bonuses such as rescueable units or upgrades, then they would make the mission easier and be in conflict with the design philosophy.
So i doubt upgrades will be tied to bonus objectives.

Also, why did blizzard remove your map? Did you enter it in a contest under the conditions of it being exclusively for coop or did they just enforce their battle.net rights?
Cradle of Death has grown on me. Still, it's not my favorite map and with some commanders and against some unit compositions I'm pretty uncomfortable with it. Playing H&H into Terran can feel rough because you're constantly pushing into bases with heavy and spread out defenses which is punishing.

My biggest two issues with the map are first, just how long it takes to get the expansion up. To expand you have to first...
1) blow up the first construct
2) clear the defending units
3) blow up the second and third constructs
4) move the trucks
5) wait for the explosion
and only then can you finally move your worker over to build the expansion.

And, as others have said, I think the truck mechanic is a bit overused and the trucks are very slow.
The slow trucks are easily my least favorite part of this mission, especially when playing a fast-paced commander like Zagara. Oftentimes I want to push but can't because I have to wait for a truck to show up. Basically, too much waiting around for trucks on this map.

It's also one of those maps where if your ally isn't cooperating, you can't win.

OP's suggestions for improvements would help a lot, I think.
My main issues with the map are as follows;

Payloads add nothing, detract from pacing of play, and slow the game down. Fast armies like Zagara lose a lot of strength because your mobility is capped by the payloads, hero commanders have similar issues where you'd often want to split your hero from your army to tackle multiple objectives, not only is this pointless to do due to the lack of split objectives and the ever present invulnerable constructs, but also impractical due to a lack of payloads to move around with.

Right now you could effectively remove the payloads entirely and replace them with just putting a unit on a marker and the mission would be more trivial but also more entertaining, as right now there isn't much difficulty to speak of and most of the time is spent waiting for the payloads to get into position. This mechanic honestly just needs to be removed, or really reworked in a major way that makes it more important to the mission structure.

The constructs are just a really bad idea. Invulnerable units that cannot be countered outside of a specific slow moving unit over which you have no control beside "move x to y" is just not ever going to work well, the only chance I see this mechanic having is when you get multiple payload trucks from the start (just 3 per player immediately, rather than one at a time) and have constructs be a core part of the mission, I.e they join attack waves to push, and drop down with attack waves as well, meaning careful positioning of your payloads is required to succeed. Rather than having bonus objectives remove payloads and force a wait, have them reward you with extra payloads so you can increase your mobility around the map.

Speaking of, the map is FAR too small, it just feels like a !@#$e Void Thrashing with speedbumps and that's really not the impression I got from the original, nor is it any fun to play.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum