Shield Battery is Pathetic

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07/24/2018 07:43 PMPosted by MyOhMind
You are making it all about your experiences since you tend to in your own words "rush carriers every game" and not how the game actually is or is balanced.

So, what are you judging your opinions off, theorycraft? Because it certainly isn't based off any pro games that I've seen.

Why wouldn't I base things off my experience? I've played vs the best players on ladder. You can use any bad composition/counter you want and win some games in, say, gold league.

I can tell you why high GMs in pro matches are trying to avoid making tempests. It's not a conspiracy or lack of knowledge. It's not good. It's a last resort. It's little different than a Terran floating his freaking buildings.
For every 2 BC or Carrier(12 supply), you would have 3 tempest(12 supply).

When tempest were 4 supply, they were incredibly easy to mass to a point where counter units(vikings and corruptors) were getting outright destroyed before they could even engage the protoss deathballs.

The tempest is so freaking bad that I'd love someone to do a unit test. Find out how many tempests it takes to kill a maxed out supply of carriers. Whether it takes 70 tempests or more, find out the general number. I'd love to see that.

I couldn't care less whether the tempest was zero supply or 10 supply -- I want my opponent to make it. I apologize to everyone who has made a tempest vs me; it was rude of me to not thank you. I don't even know if I've ever lost a game where someone made a tempest....

I know I have a game vs whitera on my channel of tempest vs tempest, because it was on dead wing -- the only map big enough that making tempests could make an ounce of sense, especially at cross positions.

People get too caught up in supply. I only point to supply to point out how stupid someone is. 6 supply for our worst unit? You deserved to be pointed at and laughed at. But, at the end of the day... it's all about making good units and devoting your resources to cost effective units.

If the tempest is zero supply but he has to pay 300/200 for it... I'd have no one to blame for losing but myself. That would be embarrassing.
07/24/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Playa
07/24/2018 07:43 PMPosted by MyOhMind
You are making it all about your experiences since you tend to in your own words "rush carriers every game" and not how the game actually is or is balanced.

6 supply for our worst unit?

It's a T3 siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).

Keep the supply 6, but pick something else about it you could improve or add to it.

Your angle is that you want Tempest to be better. I can respect that.
It's a siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).

Keep the supply 6, but pick something else about it you could improve or add to it.

Your angle is that you want Tempest to be better. I can respect that.

Like I've said, I really don't care about the supply. But, if it is going to be 6 supply, then it would be nice if it were actually worth 6 supply.

To me, the bigger issue is money. The cost of a unit relative to its strength ultimately determines whether a unit is OP or UP.

I'll always stand by my sentiment that the phoenix vs muta dynamic is the poster boy of the 7 years without 51%... As one sided as it gets.

Thus, I'd love to see the tempest have a spell that is true to ITS ORIGINAL INTENT/INVENTION. During the pre HotS launch, the tempest was revealed as an anti air unit, meant to deal with mutas. They admitted then that Toss had no answer to mass mutas.

I don't think the unit will ever be a good counter to broodlords, unless you just started giving every unit in the game irradiate. Kinda lame. So... it's w/e. But... for the love of god... give it some kinda anti air spell that at least helps vs mutas. Bare minimum, should help vs mutas.

The day Playa doesn't have to complain about mutas. The day hot places froze over. The ultimate dream.
07/24/2018 08:36 PMPosted by Playa
It's a siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).

Keep the supply 6, but pick something else about it you could improve or add to it.

Your angle is that you want Tempest to be better. I can respect that.


The day Playa doesn't have to complain about mutas. The day hot places froze over. The ultimate dream.

Phoenix range upgrade pretty much destroys muta's because of the range difference.

07/24/2018 08:36 PMPosted by Playa
It's a siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).

Keep the supply 6, but pick something else about it you could improve or add to it.

Your angle is that you want Tempest to be better. I can respect that.

Thus, I'd love to see the tempest have a spell that is true to ITS ORIGINAL INTENT/INVENTION. During the pre HotS launch, the tempest was revealed as an anti air unit, meant to deal with mutas.

During that stage of development it had an entirely different balance design then it did post launch.

07/24/2018 08:36 PMPosted by Playa
It's a siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).

Keep the supply 6, but pick something else about it you could improve or add to it.

Your angle is that you want Tempest to be better. I can respect that.

Like I've said, I really don't care about the supply. But, if it is going to be 6 supply, then it would be nice if it were actually worth 6 supply.

I agree with that. Which is why I think the Tempest needs an ability of some type to make it more interesting.
Phoenix range upgrade pretty much destroys muta's because of the range difference.

Phoenix range is a foreigner upgrade, as they're the only people who don't understand this dynamic at all. I think it's pretty incredible every time a non Korean researches this.

MC, when he was still the all time money leader, stated on stream that he refuses to ever get phoenix range. Somehow, non Korean pros need this explained to them, though. He stated the obvious... it takes too long to get/make a difference. And it costs too much.

Fortunately, non Korean's low level of thinking/understanding helps Toss, though. Zergs don't really understand this, either. If I'm playing as Zerg... and I see you get a fleet beacon... for phoenix range... then I can just switch to pure ground... and you're going to lose cause I've got way more money invested into ground than you.

It's really that easy. Less wasted money + more economy = impossible to lose situation. The only way phoenix range can make sense is... if you started the game off going skytoss, and you got phoenix range preemptively (still not great, obv). Or... in some weird game where everyone is maxed and has "infinite banks," then obv can research w/e your heart desires.

During that stage of development it had an entirely different balance design then it did post launch.

Yeah, I've been complaining all this time cause they totally addressed the issue well/at all. How does this sound, for what's more likely or not: *Gasp* they couldn't balance the new tempest anti air ability. Imagine that... And yes... they admitted this... That part is surprising, though.
I think at this stage they should just revert to the old tempest. Give it a shorter ground range though, maybe 8.
07/24/2018 07:19 PMPosted by MyOhMind

More tempests would be around. Have you ever faced proxy shield battery in TvP that transitions into Tempest vs Viking?.

Pretty much any realistic proxy scenario would work better with void rays instead of tempests. That's why several GSL games this year have featured just that: proxy shield batteries and star gate with void rays. Supply isn't the issue at that stage of the game, so 4 instead of 6 supply wouldn't change the status quo one iota.

But I've already stated that: supply isn't the fundamental issue the unit is facing. Lack of any use whatsoever outside of very specific cases (i.e., poking at brood lords and liberators), however, is.
07/24/2018 08:24 PMPosted by MyOhMind
It's a T3 siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).


Try pitting a few tempests against equal supply of carriers or battlecruisers, then see how well the tempests "counter" them. No, seriously. Go try it on the test map.

Now perform the same experiment with a handful of void rays and tell me why you'd ever build tempests instead of void rays vs massive (which invariably also means armored) flyers.

I reiterate: tempests don't counter massive air units. They (soft-) counter liberators and brood lords. That's it.
07/25/2018 06:07 AMPosted by Karnoz
07/24/2018 08:24 PMPosted by MyOhMind
It's a T3 siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).


Try pitting a few tempests against equal supply of carriers or battlecruisers, then see how well the tempests "counter" them. No, seriously. Go try it on the test map.

Now perform the same experiment with a handful of void rays and tell me why you'd ever build tempests instead of void rays vs massive (which invariably also means armored) flyers.

I reiterate: tempests don't counter massive air units. They (soft-) counter liberators and brood lords. That's it.


It's debatable if you can even call them a counter to broods. Why? Well broods don't shoot up and are never alone. If they have a million corruptors with them use voids, if hydras then get carriers.
07/24/2018 09:51 PMPosted by Playa
Phoenix range upgrade pretty much destroys muta's because of the range difference.

Phoenix range is a foreigner upgrade, as they're the only people who don't understand this dynamic at all. I think it's pretty incredible every time a non Korean researches this.

MC, when he was still the all time money leader, stated on stream that he refuses to ever get phoenix range. Somehow, non Korean pros need this explained to them, though. He stated the obvious... it takes too long to get/make a difference. And it costs too much.

This is just an excuse to not get a 150/150 64s research that gives a unit with 5 range, 7 range against a unit that has only 3 range.

07/24/2018 09:51 PMPosted by Playa
If I'm playing as Zerg... and I see you get a fleet beacon... for phoenix range... then I can just switch to pure ground... and you're going to lose cause I've got way more money invested into ground than you.

That's not exactly true. If I'm zerg and I'm going muta's and you go phoenix and it gets to a point where we have a flock of mutas(and corrupts) fighting phoenix, that means I've sunk thousands of resources into a tech line. My other tech lines are going to be under upgraded if you switch into Blink-twilight-templar.

07/24/2018 09:51 PMPosted by Playa

During that stage of development it had an entirely different balance design then it did post launch.

Yeah, I've been complaining all this time cause they totally addressed the issue well/at all. How does this sound, for what's more likely or not: *Gasp* they couldn't balance the new tempest anti air ability. Imagine that... And yes... they admitted this... That part is surprising, though.

It's similar to the warhound if you think about it.

It was going go be the spiritual successor to the goliath and then it got turned into a ground killer(that then got removed from the game.

07/25/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Karnoz
07/24/2018 07:19 PMPosted by MyOhMind

More tempests would be around. Have you ever faced proxy shield battery in TvP that transitions into Tempest vs Viking?.

Pretty much any realistic proxy scenario would work better with void rays instead of tempests. That's why several GSL games this year have featured just that: proxy shield batteries and star gate with void rays. Supply isn't the issue at that stage of the game, so 4 instead of 6 supply wouldn't change the status quo one iota.

But I've already stated that: supply isn't the fundamental issue the unit is facing. Lack of any use whatsoever outside of very specific cases (i.e., poking at brood lords and liberators), however, is.

Voidrays are used to transition into Tempest for the SB contain.

4 supply Tempest would mean you would see 1 tempest for every 2 vikings. 1 tempest can beat that with SB support no problem.

07/25/2018 06:07 AMPosted by Karnoz
07/24/2018 08:24 PMPosted by MyOhMind
It's a T3 siege unit(that double as a anti-massive air counter).


Try pitting a few tempests against equal supply of carriers or battlecruisers, then see how well the tempests "counter" them. No, seriously. Go try it on the test map.

Are we talking with upgrades or without upgrades?

Because Tempest with attack upgrades and focus fire demolish them.

07/25/2018 06:23 AMPosted by oldpainless
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Try pitting a few tempests against equal supply of carriers or battlecruisers, then see how well the tempests "counter" them. No, seriously. Go try it on the test map.

Now perform the same experiment with a handful of void rays and tell me why you'd ever build tempests instead of void rays vs massive (which invariably also means armored) flyers.

I reiterate: tempests don't counter massive air units. They (soft-) counter liberators and brood lords. That's it.


It's debatable if you can even call them a counter to broods. Why? Well broods don't shoot up and are never alone.
\

15 ATA range is longer then anything in the game and it's 5 range more then the broodlords ATG range of 10(which the tempest also has mind you.
07/25/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Karnoz
07/24/2018 07:19 PMPosted by MyOhMind

More tempests would be around. Have you ever faced proxy shield battery in TvP that transitions into Tempest vs Viking?.

But I've already stated that: supply isn't the fundamental issue the unit is facing. Lack of any use whatsoever outside of very specific cases (i.e., poking at brood lords and liberators), however, is.

I agree with that which is why it needs an ability.(maybe bringing back Disruption Blast?)
07/25/2018 10:33 AMPosted by MyOhMind
07/25/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Karnoz
...
But I've already stated that: supply isn't the fundamental issue the unit is facing. Lack of any use whatsoever outside of very specific cases (i.e., poking at brood lords and liberators), however, is.

I agree with that which is why it needs an ability.(maybe bringing back Disruption Blast?)


I agree with this. Disruption blast wasn't really given a chance, why not just bring it back? I mean the Tempest needs something at this stage.
07/25/2018 10:38 AMPosted by oldpainless
07/25/2018 10:33 AMPosted by MyOhMind
...
I agree with that which is why it needs an ability.(maybe bringing back Disruption Blast?)


I agree with this. Disruption blast wasn't really given a chance, why not just bring it back? I mean the Tempest needs something at this stage.

It would greatly help against spore walls and enemy emplacements. It's spell channeling takes a little while so enemies have plenty of time to dodge if needed.

Disruption Blast is already in the editor and works perfectly with the current design of the Tempest, which you can really tell is missing the ability. It would be like BC's with out Yamato Cannon.
07/25/2018 06:23 AMPosted by oldpainless
It's debatable if you can even call them a counter to broods. Why? Well broods don't shoot up and are never alone. If they have a million corruptors with them use voids, if hydras then get carriers.

On point/cue, last night I watched a guy (Disk) lose in the qualification round, in a game he had no business losing (if tempests were viable units). Disk had crippled the Zerg player's economy and he knew that his opponent was going into broodlords, yet he refused to make tempests -- despite not having a great economy, himself.

He tried to go carriers, instead, and lost. Players have had such horrible experiences with tempests that you basically have to put a gun to their head to force them to make any. And, NO ONE wants a 300/200 unit that is only theoretically useful vs one thing... It better just instantly annihilate that one thing...

There are no gentleman agreements that I know of... "Hey man... I'ma just go pure broodlords. So go ahead and make some tempests." Disk: "what a guy. Thanks bro. Making them now."

This is just an excuse to not get a 150/150 90s research that gives a unit with 5 range, 7 range against a unit that has only 3 range.

It's not an excuse; it's a failure to understand the logic behind one of the most successful players of all time.

90 seconds is an eternity. Phoenix range solves nothing. By the time you have a fleet beacon and then have phoenix range researched, your opponent probably didn't even want to continue with mutas, anyways.

And, if he did... he now has corruptors in the fold. It's a lot harder for phoenix range to go "right" than it is to result in an automatic loss vs anyone competent.

Like I've said... the best time to get phoenix range is when you're going skytoss and you already have a fleet beacon. Ideally, you'd have phoenix range done before your opponent even has a muta. That way... you don't have to make 1000000 phoenix to deal with mutas. And, if your opponent realizes... omg... he already has phoenix range... then he might be deterred from making more.

Any game where you can limit your phoenix production is the best case scenario. If you have to make a lot of phoenix and then get phoenix range... lol... just leave.

That's not exactly true. If I'm zerg and I'm going muta's and you go phoenix and it gets to a point where we have a flock of mutas(and corrupts) fighting phoenix, that means I've sunk thousands of resources into a tech line. My other tech lines are going to be under upgraded if you switch into Blink-twilight-templar.

The only way to go wrong with mutas is if you've made them too late. Like... if Toss already has 4 bases and then you go mutas... Then you don't understand Toss well enough, unless, ofc, it was a reactive thing that the situation called for.

If you go into mutas at a proper time... mutas will force out cannons before Toss can really afford/want to make them. Then, if they're going the phoenix route.. it will force out a 300/200 fleet beacon... a 150/150 upgrade and another 150/150 stargate.

It's literally impossible to transition from this, when, at most, you have 3 bases. Not only are you forced down a dead end and your economy is stunted, but mutas allow more resources/expansions for your opponent than any other style of play.

Zerg players aren't that smart at this game, let's be honest. They've basically been over 50% for 8 years straight against Toss, yet they still struggle to pinpoint any advantages, and they still think Toss is OP...

It's a testament to how good and favored Zerg is... that they can completely miss/gloss over this favored situation for them... yet... end up on the "good side" of the numbers every month. They still have room to do far better... scary.

This is just an excuse to not get a 150/150 90s research that gives a unit with 5 range, 7 range against a unit that has only 3 range.

90 seconds is an eternity.

It actually takes 64 seconds not 90 seconds, so not long at all.


That's not exactly true. If I'm zerg and I'm going muta's and you go phoenix and it gets to a point where we have a flock of mutas(and corrupts) fighting phoenix, that means I've sunk thousands of resources into a tech line. My other tech lines are going to be under upgraded if you switch into Blink-twilight-templar.

It's literally impossible to transition from this, when, at most, you have 3 bases. Not only are you forced down a dead end and your economy is stunted, but mutas allow more resources/expansions for your opponent than any other style of play.

Muta's tend to delay gas units and upgrades if they build a flock of them. They do that to mostly buy time.

Also phoenix(with range upgrade) can actually be useful in the mid or even late game when compositioned right. Not always, but they do have usages since they can lift units and zone out detection or corruptors.
07/25/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Playa
07/25/2018 06:23 AMPosted by oldpainless
It's debatable if you can even call them a counter to broods. Why? Well broods don't shoot up and are never alone. If they have a million corruptors with them use voids, if hydras then get carriers.

On point/cue, last night I watched a guy (Disk) lose in the qualification round, in a game he had no business losing (if tempests were viable units). Disk had crippled the Zerg player's economy and he knew that his opponent was going into broodlords, yet he refused to make tempests -- despite not having a great economy, himself.

He tried to go carriers, instead, and lost.

So what you are saying is that he lost because he didn't build the counter unit(Tempest) in a situation that would have won him the game if he did.
07/25/2018 12:35 PMPosted by MyOhMind
Muta's tend to delay gas units and upgrades if they build a flock of them. They do that to mostly buy time.

Also phoenix(with range upgrade) can actually be useful in the mid or even late game when compositioned right. Not always, but they do have usages since they can lift units and zone out detection or corruptors.

Vs anyone sensible... it's not an option. When I play as Zerg, I make roaches, lings and mutas. If I'm spamming mutas one minute, then you're seriously going to make a fleet beacon and add another stargate? Who is that stupid?

I already have all of the tech unlocked that I need for the rest of the game... I don't need "50 gateways" to make 50 roaches. It really bothers me how clueless Zerg players are. 300/200 IS A BIG F'ING DEAL MAN.

In what world can a guy get above gold league, while being more concerned with supply count than cost of unit? If I'm playing a mirror matchup... and a guy just spots me 300/200... then I should win every time. Not that I would, but I should.

In P vs Z... Zerg is already favored, so spotting your opponent 300/200 is even more of "how the f could you lose?" And it's not just 300/200... you then are going to get the phoenix range upgrade. Continue making phoenixes that do jack vs the units I'm making now...

It's absolutely asinine to argue this is a good situation for Toss. Way more out in left field than the forum conspiracy.

07/25/2018 12:38 PMPosted by MyOhMind
So what you are saying is that he lost because he didn't build the counter unit(Tempest) in a situation that would have won him the game if he did.

I'm saying... maybe you should stop and wonder why people, like myself, who have OBVIOUSLY TRIED GOING TEMPESTS, refuse to ever make them. Golly gee, we just love losing games. You see... I married carriers, so... I'd love to have my free wins, since tempests are totally great vs broodlords... but I've made the commitment. I won't cheat like that.

You guys are on some dating stuff. Strategy is def escaping you.
07/25/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Playa

07/25/2018 12:38 PMPosted by MyOhMind
So what you are saying is that he lost because he didn't build the counter unit(Tempest) in a situation that would have won him the game if he did.

I'm saying... maybe you should stop and wonder why people, like myself, who have OBVIOUSLY TRIED GOING TEMPESTS, refuse to ever make them. Golly gee, we just love losing games. You see... I married carriers, so... I'd love to have my free wins, since tempests are totally great vs broodlords... but I've made the commitment. I won't cheat like that.

Tempest are not army killers and shouldn't make up a large part of your army. They are supportive siege units.

They build faster, cost cheaper, have more HP, have more damage per shot, have greater ATA range then Carriers. But they don't have the same role as carriers.

07/25/2018 12:35 PMPosted by MyOhMind
Muta's tend to delay gas units and upgrades if they build a flock of them. They do that to mostly buy time.

Also phoenix(with range upgrade) can actually be useful in the mid or even late game when compositioned right. Not always, but they do have usages since they can lift units and zone out detection or corruptors.

300/200 IS A BIG F'ING DEAL MAN.


Ultralisk,Thors and Colossus cost the same amount.
Tempest are not army killers and shouldn't make up a large part of your army. They are supportive siege units.

They build faster, cost cheaper, have more HP, have more damage per shot, have greater ATA range then Carriers. But they don't have the same role as carriers.

How about some homework, kid. Play as Toss and try winning games with tempests. GL with it.

A freaking tank costs 150/125 and is 3 supply. You know what a support unit costs? 50/100: the Sentry. The tempest price is nothing more than SC 2 Darwinism.

When Zergs are able to make queens, guess what that means? It means YOU HAVE TO MASS TEMPESTS TO KILL BROODLORDS. Give it a rest. Go make a couple tempests and see how it goes for you man. Since clearly I'm lying and every pro just avoids it for no reason. You know better, go ahead.

07/25/2018 01:21 PMPosted by MyOhMind
Ultralisk,Thors and Colossus cost the same amount.

Now you're just trolling even more. No one has even made a colossus in a year. Guess why... oh, there is a pattern here... it costs way too much, too.

Are we seriously using the tempest in the same sentence as ultras and thors? You trying to make me cry or something? Selling a tempest here, come get your tempest. Price: ultra or a thor. Please, god... come give me some business. I beg of you. Sad.
07/25/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Playa
Tempest are not army killers and shouldn't make up a large part of your army. They are supportive siege units.

They build faster, cost cheaper, have more HP, have more damage per shot, have greater ATA range then Carriers. But they don't have the same role as carriers.

How about some homework, kid. Play as Toss and try winning games with tempests. GL with it.

You always get them in the late game for ZvP to break spore walls, pick off vipers, zone corruptors and kill broods.

You always get them in late game TvP to zone vikings and kill ranged libs

In PvP they have usages in the late game if one side goes carriers.

07/25/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Playa
Tempest are not army killers and shouldn't make up a large part of your army. They are supportive siege units.

They build faster, cost cheaper, have more HP, have more damage per shot, have greater ATA range then Carriers. But they don't have the same role as carriers.

Go make a couple tempests and see how it goes for you man.

Goes pretty well since you only need a few to be effective.

07/25/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Playa
Tempest are not army killers and shouldn't make up a large part of your army. They are supportive siege units.

They build faster, cost cheaper, have more HP, have more damage per shot, have greater ATA range then Carriers. But they don't have the same role as carriers.

and every pro just avoids it for no reason.

That's incredibly false. Watch twitch tv streams, watch more tournaments, watch casted games on youtube. You will see hundreds of Tempest usages.

07/25/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Playa
07/25/2018 01:21 PMPosted by MyOhMind
Ultralisk,Thors and Colossus cost the same amount.

Now you're just trolling even more. No one has even made a colossus in a year.

They are frequently made in TvP and so are disruptors.

They are still made in ZvP to support immortal-archon-HT-chargelot-Stalker balls and so are disruptors(if the zerg isn't going ling heavy).

In PvP they can help if the mid game gets chargelot-archon heavy.

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