Could cannon rushers earn a win?

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I would say it's a novel concept, but... they made unbuildable terrain below EVERY ramp due to cannon rushes being a free and undeserved win.

So, since it's not a novel concept, given a person with some dignity and common sense made it harder for scummy Toss players to steal points from Zergs via this rob job -- could we do the same for Toss vs Toss?

Can we make this a "cannon rush lives don't matter" and everyone else does matter subject? Cause, I don't know how 1 cannon equaling "gg" can be any more abusive/wrong. I don't think picking Zerg instead of Toss makes the injustice worse...

Cannon rushing is so broken against Toss that simply faking a cannon rush is broken... I can't play a game on Lost and Found without having to concede a minute into the game.

So, could we have like a solution that would allow, I dunno, someone who doesn't cannon rush every game to have a decent win rate in P vs P?

Maybe make the terrain unbuildable on the edges of mains (at least on maps like lost and found)? Or not allow people to make cannons 100000000000000000000000000000 feet from a nexus?

Not being able to use cannons offensively would probably be a great enough change to even make this game relevant again. Truly the greatest thing since Chinese food.

Serious message. Cannon rushing has been a scourge to this game since its inception. Everyone hates it. No one respects it. It's a slap in the face that these guys dominate mirror matchups. It's like if the only way to get above 60% in T vs T was to proxy raxes in your opponent's base.

It's clowncraft. It's gone on for way too long. It's time to put a bullet in the head of this cannon business. Many years overdo.
Can someone PLEASE DO SOMETHING? PLEASE. What's the difference between a bronze player and a GM Toss? One decided to cannon rush. That's IT. Jesus.

This is worse than showing cleavage on twitch to get viewers. At least they have something of value. This is way worse than swarm hosts ever were. Unreal.
That's true. Even putting pylon in enemy's base without intention of cannon rushing puts you in an advantage. It came to the point that I scout after the first pylon so I can see if my opponent has a forge (50% games he will). !@#$ them in the %^-
I agree it turns P v P into a circus, not even really need now as Toss can shield battery rush. Will the balance team ever fix it? No chance.
It's gotten so sad/stupid, that the last time I scouted my Toss opponent, he ALREADY HAD A PROBE ON A PATROL, on the LOW GROUND. Can you believe that?

After seeing his paranoia and realizing he was in the same boat as me (trying anything in his power to never lose to that stupid strat again)... what did I do? Ofc... just faked a cannon rush. So... now guy has a lot of probes attacking the pylon and still has probe on patrol on the low ground.

You truly can't win... It's way out of hand.
Playa making a not stupid topic? It happens!

I play Z and photon rushes(PR)/contains are becoming more and more of a trouble. PR has always been the best example of cheese - you die to a surprise. But now we have guys like PrintF - everyone knows PR is coming, yet he is a GM. Wat? One-strat GM, is this right?

Half of P. are going PR/contain (low Dia2). I've started drone-scouting and I don't think I'm that bad in reacting, yet PR often wins even if I scout, see it coming and actively defend. It feels simply wrong.
I'm totally with you, Playa. Cannon Rush should be changed LONG AGO. It's amazing we still have this crap unchanged in the game AFTER 8 YEARS. Unfortunately, Blizzard will do NOTHING except if a Toss win Blizzcon using it.

- Even if you KNOW your opponent is going to Cannon Rush, like when you play against printf for example, you have a big chance of losing the game. That's how OP the strategy is. I Saw Scarllet losing today against printf KNOWING she was playing against a Cannon Rusher. It's overpowered without a shadow of a doubt. It's even worse on team games, it's plainly undefeatable as long as you have the cover of a 12p or mass Reaper;

- The fact people like Has Cannon Rush every game and get far in tournaments is a bad sign as well;

- Even if you FAIL your Cannon Rush, you will still be even on workers or maybe ahead due to how economy works on LotV, while also containing your opponent into his base;

- PvP is a miserable matchup and Cannon Rush is the sole reason of it. It's a strategy made to frustrate people;

- Most importantly: Cannon Rush makes new players' and low league players lives miserable because it is a clown strategy that requires a LOT of effort and precision to defend AND minimal effort to apply it with good and ez results. I've lost a couple friends who started SC2 because they got completely frustrated with stuff like Cannon Rush being in the game. Losing a game before you even have your first fighting unit in the map is obnoxious.

I'm with you on that, Playa. Too bad Blizzard will do nothing unless pros abuse it consistently which may not happen. Meanwhile I will NEVER say gg to a Cannon Rusher. They don't deserve it.
How to fix Cannon Rush once and for all:

- Increase both Forge and Photom Cannon build time;

OR

- Make Gateway a requirement to build Forge;

There you go. It is that simple! Blizzard wanted to get rid of sudden game ending moments nerfing Raven, Viper, Widow Mine but completely forgot Cannon Rush in their equation.

I don't know why but Blizzard developers see Cannon Rush as a sacred strategy in the game. They don't dare touching it. Only God would know why.
How about no cannons until cyber core and forge. You would have to be mad to put down cannons before then, and it, for the most part, removes an abusive and boring strategy from the game. When 25% of my ZvP matches are cannon rushing, that's not fun.
I literally go pool-first in ZvP just to stop cannon rushing, even though that leaves me at a disadvantage against a normal player.
Thanks for the support Seizon. After two weeks of being back and having made GM and then lost it (today), time for me to call it quits again.

Against Toss, as stated, playing against cannon rushes far too often. Against Terran, I'm locked into a battle of hide n seek, as the other guy proxies all of his buildings. Not to bring in another topic (shield batteries), but... the game is just too all-in centric for me. It's reminiscent of WoL.

Years ago, I was playing a 2 vs 2 match. After seeing one of the opponents make a cannon on the low ground, I just left the game. My Silver league partner got into an argument with me. I'm just like... hey.... we lost... on to the next one...

My partner was absolutely incredulous that cannons could be that much of a free/auto win. So incredulous, in fact, that we had to stop being friends over it. Did my partner have any suggestions for how to stop it? Nope. I don't blame my partner, though. I don't get it, either.

Why would anyone play a game where that was a thing, you know? You shouldn't. And I won't.

tl;dr SC 2 isn't a social game and cannon rushes ruin the few friendships you do develop. Name another unit/building/strategy that is that much of a plague.

07/28/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Shaggy
How about no cannons until cyber core and forge. You would have to be mad to put down cannons before then, and it, for the most part, removes an abusive and boring strategy from the game. When 25% of my ZvP matches are cannon rushing, that's not fun.

Hey... man... that's so simple and brilliant at the same time. The only time I've ever gone cannons before cyber would be to stop proxy rax marines. But, I think that was more of a preference than a necessity.

So, needless to say, I really like that idea and would LOVE to see it tested out/implemented.

Yesterday, I tried to go through a long Printf vod to see a P vs P where he lost, to make sure it wasn't just a "learn to play" thing. Guess what... I didn't see a single one. Just a whole lot of winning...
Cannon rush is a plague, you are completely precise on the word, Playa. Plague in all matches, but specially in PvP.
I think the reason that forge was designed to be made early was to be able to forge expand, vs zerg.
But do people DO forge expand anymore? The way that legacy works, doing that just kinda puts you behind anyway, as you really need to tech up to get some harassment done OR get your tech up to do an all-in.

So, I don't see a reason to not just put the forge behind gateway, or even cyber.
07/28/2018 08:36 PMPosted by AchromicWht
I think the reason that forge was designed to be made early was to be able to forge expand, vs zerg.
But do people DO forge expand anymore? The way that legacy works, doing that just kinda puts you behind anyway, as you really need to tech up to get some harassment done OR get your tech up to do an all-in.

So, I don't see a reason to not just put the forge behind gateway, or even cyber.

Because of ravagers, it's no longer an option.
I'm planning to bump this thread until Blizzard do something about Cannons or acknowledge the thread. Very relevant thread.

Blizzard needs to look for the FUN aspect in the game and Cannon Rush is the complete opposite of FUN unless you are a sadist or sick person.
07/28/2018 08:37 PMPosted by Playa
Because of ravagers, it's no longer an option.


Oh yeah... That's a really obvious point.
Heck I need to come back and play more matches, I'm starting to forget xD
Been off playing C&C95
07/28/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Seizon
How to fix Cannon Rush once and for all:

- Increase both Forge and Photom Cannon build time;

OR

- Make Gateway a requirement to build Forge;

There you go. It is that simple! Blizzard wanted to get rid of sudden game ending moments nerfing Raven, Viper, Widow Mine but completely forgot Cannon Rush in their equation.

I don't know why but Blizzard developers see Cannon Rush as a sacred strategy in the game. They don't dare touching it. Only God would know why.
maybe you will tell me, what should i do with 3 hatch before pool or 15 cc? nothing? maybe i can open against terran or zerg 15 nexus? even if they play standart? nope, forge allow to punish those play. in pvp i just scout 12 worker and close ramp with my own forge and kill opponent with proxy stargate voidray
Honestly when I play against a cannon-rusher I want to hug him.
Of all variety of toss cheeses its the weakest one.
Practically free mmr.

On the other hand, cannon-rushers are people who go on forum and say how weak carriers are and that they are killed by marines.
Cannon rush into carriers have been standard protoss strategy from the depth of bronze league till diamond I belive, but its so easy to deal with its pathetic.
Lost and Found is the problem, not cannon rushing.

Lost and Found is the best cannon rush map in years. No need to change cannon rushing if you can just change that map, its the source of the problem.
07/29/2018 08:10 AMPosted by EZcheezy
Lost and Found is the problem, not cannon rushing.

Lost and Found is the best cannon rush map in years. No need to change cannon rushing if you can just change that map, its the source of the problem.
maybe you would be right if they didn't go PR even on the 4-player map.

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