Could cannon rushers earn a win?

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07/29/2018 08:12 AMPosted by MisterAL
07/29/2018 08:10 AMPosted by EZcheezy
Lost and Found is the problem, not cannon rushing.

Lost and Found is the best cannon rush map in years. No need to change cannon rushing if you can just change that map, its the source of the problem.
maybe you would be right if they didn't go PR even on the 4-player map.


Yes Darkness Sanctuary LE has a 3 pylon block area with a space for 2 cannons just like Lost and Found but its not anywhere near as good.

If zergs are forced to blindly patrol a drone in the pylon location vs every game in ZvP you gotta know something is wrong. Lost and Found is the first map iv seen players do that.
It's the map design that makes cannon rushes more or less effective. If you want to nerf cannon rush's put more of those destroyable tiles around.
In wol and hots I used to stop every cannon rush, but when they changed the starting worker count I started losing against cannon rushes more and more, and now I lose about 2/3 of each cannon rush games, really easy for them putting cannons and boosting zealots as a finisher move. long ago if you defended it you had an advantage since you were building probes, but now once the rush stops the worker count it's about the same and you only advantage it's an early cybercore.
07/29/2018 08:57 AMPosted by LoliLover
In wol and hots I used to stop every cannon rush, but when they changed the starting worker count I started losing against cannon rushes more and more, and now I lose about 2/3 of each cannon rush games, really easy for them putting cannons and boosting zealots as a finisher move. long ago if you defended it you had an advantage since you were building probes, but now once the rush stops the worker count it's about the same and you only advantage it's an early cybercore.

cannon rusher pours a lot of minerals into cannons and pylons. that's your advantage.
07/29/2018 08:06 AMPosted by Skipper
Honestly when I play against a cannon-rusher I want to hug him.
Of all variety of toss cheeses its the weakest one.
Practically free mmr.

On the other hand, cannon-rushers are people who go on forum and say how weak carriers are and that they are killed by marines.
Cannon rush into carriers have been standard protoss strategy from the depth of bronze league till diamond I belive, but its so easy to deal with its pathetic.
agree, i hate pvp for random, such as opponent cancel stargate and place dark shrine. but when opponent cannon rush, you know that the game ends soon and all in your hands.
07/29/2018 08:38 AMPosted by MyOhMind
It's the map design that makes cannon rushes more or less effective. If you want to nerf cannon rush's put more of those destroyable tiles around.
yes, lost and found is this map, where cannon rush is really strong and really hard defendeble for zerg, horewer both other races should be okay, if you pool workers and build zealots, spine crowlers, bunkers
I'm not gonna lie, when blizzard said they were nerfing ol drops because they limited protoss build diversity I was pretty pissed off, not because I always used that strategy, but because I used it whenever cannon rushes were starting to get to me. Absurd that ol drops were taken out for that reason when everyone has to be on their toes for cannon rushes. The low commitment required is just ridiculous for the advantage you earn. TBH I think a lot of it is on the community for pretending it was a charming quirk of the game instead of a clear example of a broken strategy.
god bless i left this game- Playa have clear and good points- like many other Protoss poster- l

but u know what?

Blizzard ignoring the Protoss Comunity a long long time- we made so much good suggestions- but the only thing they saying is: oh we are on a good spot and lets wait # SoonTM- meanwhile zerg and terran gets at least some changes (most of them Buffs)

we saying to blizzard sonce Wol that rdm players sould be forced to show there main race- ignored- we said since Hots that Toss gateway units to bad in trading and have no clear roles- ignored- we said we need a better robo aoe unit- ignored- we need more variance as Protoss openings- ignored- still same stargate opening into 1-2 gamestyles, we want ai improves and showing mmr- half ignored, we all hate canon rushes/cheeses and all ins- ignored- Toss need a better early scouting option-ignored (i suggested years ago that sentry could have a cooldown for hallucination phonix), suggestion that canons only can build if u have a cybercore rdy instead of a forge- ignored

and so on- there are tons of good and interesting suggestions- but blizzard never try them out or just ignoring them for years- so thats casue i left this game- Toss players are ignored for years- so now we sould ignoring sc2
07/29/2018 08:57 AMPosted by LoliLover
In wol and hots I used to stop every cannon rush, but when they changed the starting worker count I started losing against cannon rushes more and more, and now I lose about 2/3 of each cannon rush games, really easy for them putting cannons and boosting zealots as a finisher move. long ago if you defended it you had an advantage since you were building probes, but now once the rush stops the worker count it's about the same and you only advantage it's an early cybercore.

I can't necessarily agree with stopping them in WoL, as the "Boss cannon" was a thing. That cannon rush basically epitomizes the earned disdain for cannon rushing: "omg... a guy just made 2 pylons behind my mineral line... Time to type gg...."

You seriously had to leave games before a guy even started making a cannon... 2 pylons = GG. Unbelievable. Now, maps are made with more room behind mineral lines to prevent this abuse. You have the unbuildable terrain below the ramp, too.

Noticing a pattern? Having to admit cannon rushing is abusive and broken, while cannon rushers continue to find more and more abusive areas. Time to nip it in the bud.

It's like trying to put out never ending fires instead of just stopping the pyro outside the house. You know what he is going to do, if left to his own devices... abuse and ruin the game for everyone else, like he has always done.

In HotS, it was much easier, as a Toss, to stop these guys. I think it was in part to the starting worker count + better chrono boost, that allowed you to get out a zealot before your nexus was dead...
Dude, photon rushes are far less broken then pretty much any other toss cheese. Have you seen void+SB?
07/29/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Skipper
Dude, photon rushes are far less broken then pretty much any other toss cheese. Have you seen void+SB?


Wrong. Also, at least the opponent will have units in the map way before the first Void is out.
07/28/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Seizon
How to fix Cannon Rush once and for all:

- Increase both Forge and Photom Cannon build time;

OR

- Make Gateway a requirement to build Forge;

There you go. It is that simple! Blizzard wanted to get rid of sudden game ending moments nerfing Raven, Viper, Widow Mine but completely forgot Cannon Rush in their equation.

I don't know why but Blizzard developers see Cannon Rush as a sacred strategy in the game. They don't dare touching it. Only God would know why.


i guess it was designed to deal with z cheeses and cheeses in general, i mean i dont like it either but i dont see other way for a toss to defend an early agresion till bateries or units come out since theres no longer the msc, ironically making the other races and even his very same race deal with this s**t

but tbh i dont mind keeping them as long as in the upper side of the z base they put an "unbuildable zone" due the hatch creep dont go too far a toss can simply block the upper side with 3 pylons, one down and you are done either with a single canon delaying the expansion for like 4 minutes or with a slow cancer death with stalker battery or the has style inmortal battery

its so ridiculous broken that he managed to go to the finals with that build
07/29/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Skipper
Dude, photon rushes are far less broken then pretty much any other toss cheese. Have you seen void+SB?
i ve seen it dying to vikings with focus fire, horewer most terrans still try to kill it with marines
07/29/2018 10:28 PMPosted by Fireword
07/28/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Seizon
How to fix Cannon Rush once and for all:

- Increase both Forge and Photom Cannon build time;

OR

- Make Gateway a requirement to build Forge;

There you go. It is that simple! Blizzard wanted to get rid of sudden game ending moments nerfing Raven, Viper, Widow Mine but completely forgot Cannon Rush in their equation.

I don't know why but Blizzard developers see Cannon Rush as a sacred strategy in the game. They don't dare touching it. Only God would know why.


i guess it was designed to deal with z cheeses and cheeses in general, i mean i dont like it either but i dont see other way for a toss to defend an early agresion till bateries or units come out since theres no longer the msc, ironically making the other races and even his very same race deal with this s**t

but tbh i dont mind keeping them as long as in the upper side of the z base they put an "unbuildable zone" due the hatch creep dont go too far a toss can simply block the upper side with 3 pylons, one down and you are done either with a single canon delaying the expansion for like 4 minutes or with a slow cancer death with stalker battery or the has style inmortal battery

its so ridiculous broken that he managed to go to the finals with that build
i wonder how serral even beated him, if this strat is unbeatable?
07/30/2018 03:28 AMPosted by llllllllllll
i wonder how serral even beated him, if this strat is unbeatable?

Something isn't right, atm. Toss is over 50% win rate versus Zerg this period, with just another day to go.

To even find a period where Toss is at 50% versus Zerg... I'd imagine you'd have to go back many years (sad). Toss has had multiple 43% periods this year. 46% period last month and 44% in May. And they ended last year at 42% versus Zerg...

Given this anomaly of being at over 50% this period and the "Has cheese" becoming a fad, it's definitely pointing to how much Zergs are struggling versus this.

Given the history of Toss, I expect any good all-in to fare much better than Toss macro play. It's a pity to play a race that can be 40% in macro games and, say, 60% in all-in games. Your "balance numbers" merely depend on how many people decided to all-in.

Macro players get screwed over, while the bronze monkeys reap all the wins.
Actually P. macro feels very fine from my Z point of view. Just because:
1. I'm not used to it - don't get a chance
2. I waste so much resources getting ready to all the usual cheeses.
To be honest ever since Has+Lost and Found 2018 this !@#$ has been annoying af

the sad thing is i'm 100% sure they won't do anything about it. i wish all pro players would just not gg against cannon rush on livestream
07/30/2018 05:49 AMPosted by MisterAL
Actually P. macro feels very fine from my Z point of view. Just because:
1. I'm not used to it - don't get a chance
2. I waste so much resources getting ready to all the usual cheeses.
what for? why you dont scout for 3rd or 8 gateways?
07/30/2018 03:26 AMPosted by llllllllllll
07/29/2018 04:28 PMPosted by Skipper
Dude, photon rushes are far less broken then pretty much any other toss cheese. Have you seen void+SB?
i ve seen it dying to vikings with focus fire, horewer most terrans still try to kill it with marines

Photon rush - free MMR for me.
Void+SB - super hard to hold and almost guaranteed lead for toss.
My point holds.

07/30/2018 03:59 AMPosted by Playa
07/30/2018 03:28 AMPosted by llllllllllll
i wonder how serral even beated him, if this strat is unbeatable?

Something isn't right, atm. Toss is over 50% win rate versus Zerg this period, with just another day to go.

To even find a period where Toss is at 50% versus Zerg... I'd imagine you'd have to go back many years (sad). Toss has had multiple 43% periods this year. 46% period last month and 44% in May. And they ended last year at 42% versus Zerg...

[/quote]
Dude, don't look at pros, you are not one of them. Look at the ladder. At higher leagues there are more Zergs than Terrans and Protoss combined.

My Zerg friends struggle most with toss though.
07/30/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Skipper
At higher leagues there are more Zergs than Terrans and Protoss combined.


Grandmaster: Z: 266(34.23%) P: 260(33.46%) T: 240(30.89%)

Master: Z: 6,514(33.54%) P: 4,978(25.63%) T: 6,670(34.34%)

Diamond: Z: 34,047(34.95%) P: 23,287(23.90%) T: 30,058(30.85%)

Wut?

Learn facts pls kthxbai

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