About Swarmhosts

Co-op Missions Discussion
I wanna say one more time(does somebody counts?) about this abandoned unit.
I don't understand why Blizzard completely ignores him and the main question is why he was provided in SC2? He is slow huge, time to born new locusts takes 3sec, and locusts are also very bad:
  • slowest speed is 2.25
  • lowest attack range 2
  • no impactfull dps 8.3
  • very short lifetime 15sec
  • can't split into groups to proper control the situation
  • doesn't defend the master even if enemy is in range
  • doesn't have prioprity to kill first the map objective
  • if you have many SH, than they spawns too many locusts which are crowding and doesn't attack enemy
  • If compare with other small units such as zergling or marines, locusts simply slower than them
    I think the closest to the concept of this unit are broodlings from broodlords, they also have short lifetime, but! Their speed is very high 3.84, the broodlords deals damage besides the spawning new broodlings. The only benefit is that locusts can attack air, but here comes Stukov, who also can spawn free marines, which are also very similar to locusts but has 120sec lifetime compare to 15...
    One guy told me, that SH also not so popular in multiplayer which appears the main theme of all SC2, so i wanna some huge fixes/buffs around this unit. As i told earlier multiple times, i wanna flying locusts, cause they are superior to ground in all senses.

    P.S. Liquipedia says, that this unit is effective against workers, lol
    https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Swarm_Host_(Legacy_of_the_Void)
    Abathur's swarm hosts are currently pretty good in mutations for defending his base( eg. soloing Shir Chaos / Cold is the void). SH is a unique unit which benefits from biomass in 2 ways, spawing cd and locusts's life/dps. That means a 100 biomass SH is 4x as good as 0 biomass SH.

    It would be great if the locusts could fly, but they won't good at defending anymore that way. Maybe we need a switch between ground/flying locusts XD
    My take is that there is no reason why abathur’s swarm hosts should be weaker than amon’s, yet by a massive margin they are.

    Also, that liquipedia page is on the ladder version of swarm host which was seriously reworked into almost purely a harass unit that got buffed until it was cost efficient vs. Armies too and now instead of worker harass goes big with nexus harass, which they can easily kill instantly.
    If i was right, Dehaka's SH has flying locust.
    It's a decent unit to me but its mutation version is not as good as it.
    Dehaka's SH mutation should be something like siege tank but it's just not as good as siege tank to defend, yet not as good as original dehaka's SH to attack.

    After all, all SH seems to have some problems.
    08/21/2018 09:17 AMPosted by LILIA
    If i was right, Dehaka's SH has flying locust.

    No, they have jumping style (all stats similar to ground) and can't attack in air. Their atk.spd 0.6, while Abathur's is 1.2 and lifetime is 25>15 and range 3>2. And they cost less
    Swarm hosts are not made for co-op, that is the reality of the problem. Their only existence is to chip at a fortified defense little by little. Sadly that are no missions with any kind of fortified defense, especially since most missions have a timer.

    Even if Dehaka's SH are the best, that's not saying much. Their only redeeming factors is that they have fly locust and they can morph into Primal Creeper (and hopefully get the mutation that makes baneling locust spawn faster).
    There are plenty of fortified defenses in coop. Any map where you need to attack an objective under a timer you can send out waves of locusts during the downtime where you macro. The majority of these "issues" can be solved with either better SH micro or complementing them with other units (guardians/devourers)
    08/21/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Tengri
    There are plenty of fortified defenses in coop. Any map where you need to attack an objective under a timer you can send out waves of locusts during the downtime where you macro. The majority of these "issues" can be solved with either better SH micro or complementing them with other units (guardians/devourers)

    Except the swarm hosts aren’t free so you are better off just spending those resources on actually macroing instead of making swarm hosts for some minor poke damage and then trying to macro back up to the army you would have had if you never spent time with the hosts.
    08/21/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Tengri
    There are plenty of fortified defenses in coop. Any map where you need to attack an objective under a timer you can send out waves of locusts during the downtime where you macro. The majority of these "issues" can be solved with either better SH micro or complementing them with other units (guardians/devourers)


    OR, you could spend those ressources on better units that takes even less efforts for the same result. It's not like there's plenty of commanders with calldowns, it's easy to break a fortified defense like Rifts to Korhal's or Void Thrashing's final area with two armies and calldowns.

    And yes I know Abathur doesn't have any calldowns outside of Mend but even the Ultimate evolutions are enough to break them with Queens support.
    Abathur's macro is extremely easy with no injects and the construction mastery. Microing SH and macroing simultaneously is trivial. Especially when microing swarm hosts is just getting in range to cast locusts then retreating your SH back. SH are quality over quantity so they aren't more expensive than rushing mutalisks.

    08/21/2018 10:23 AMPosted by WireBender
    instead of making swarm hosts for some minor poke damage and then trying to macro back up to the army you would have had if you never spent time with the hosts.
    That's backwards logic. If your goal is to make a SH-centric comp, then you won't be making other units until much later. If you're making some SH to harass then you'd be correct in calling it a dumb idea.

    08/21/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Nymzo
    OR, you could spend those ressources on better units that takes even less efforts for the same result. It's not like there's plenty of commanders with calldowns, it's easy to break a fortified defense like Rifts to Korhal's or Void Thrashing's final area with two armies and calldowns.
    I'm not going to deny that viper comps or muta comps are superior to swarm hosts. But swarm hosts are usable and if you want to go mass SH you absolutely can. They don't need any radical buffs.

    Abathur SH on oblivion express.
    https://drop.sc/replay/8221475
    Against roach hydra so really easy regardless of comp but it shows how to use spine crawlers for additional dps vs trains and spire transition when the SH count starts getting unwieldy.
    Also, that was the first time I tried using the biomass mastery and it's a lot of extra biomass midgame. Almost too much.
    The current abathur swarm host is a very powerful defensive unit. 2-3 swarm hosts with biomass can infinitely hold back even powerful attack waves while nests, guardians, dervourers, or ultimates kill the enemy units. Or you can just wait longer and the enemy units eventually die.

    Offensively they’re pretty bad since the locust duration is so short. Abathur has extremely good offensive tools besides swarm hosts though.
    08/21/2018 01:17 PMPosted by DrOrgo
    The current abathur swarm host is a very powerful defensive unit. 2-3 swarm hosts with biomass can infinitely hold back even powerful attack waves while nests, guardians, dervourers, or ultimates kill the enemy units. Or you can just wait longer and the enemy units eventually die.

    Offensively they’re pretty bad since the locust duration is so short. Abathur has extremely good offensive tools besides swarm hosts though.
    This is the majority of what I use Swarm Hosts for as well. A handful of well placed burrowed swarm hosts can hold attack waves at your base almost indefinitely, leaving the rest of your army free to continue taking on the objective.
    08/21/2018 01:17 PMPosted by DrOrgo
    2-3 swarm hosts with biomass can infinitely hold back even powerful attack waves while nests, guardians, dervourers, or ultimates kill the enemy units.

    Don't you see a contradiction in your words? If your army is so powerfull, so why she needs a unit for distraction? Especially if you have a few vipers for superior crowd control?
    08/21/2018 03:59 PMPosted by HorrificDoom
    08/21/2018 01:17 PMPosted by DrOrgo
    2-3 swarm hosts with biomass can infinitely hold back even powerful attack waves while nests, guardians, dervourers, or ultimates kill the enemy units.

    Don't you see a contradiction in your words? If your army is so powerfull, so why she needs a unit for distraction? Especially if you have a few vipers for superior crowd control?
    The idea is that if you give swarm hosts biomass, they allow units without biomass to be stronger than otherwise. It also combos very strongly with long range auto attack units from other commanders. Sure coop doesn’t require that type of tactic to still win, by it doesn’t change the niche swarm hosts are best in.
    What stops you from giving biomass to stronger units first? What sense to help your allies with SH, when you can better help with vipers? I still don't get about what niche for SH you're saying. They are very good on Dead and Night, but as defenders and for some reason you didn't said that. And again Dehaka's PH are also good on that map, but cheaper and better...
    08/20/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Matrix
    Abathur's swarm hosts are currently pretty good in mutations for defending his base( eg. soloing Shir Chaos / Cold is the void). SH is a unique unit which benefits from biomass in 2 ways, spawing cd and locusts's life/dps. That means a 100 biomass SH is 4x as good as 0 biomass SH.

    It would be great if the locusts could fly, but they won't good at defending anymore that way. Maybe we need a switch between ground/flying locusts XD

    Biomass gives them x4 bonus indeed, and Sarah's creep x8, but it solves only one problem (dps) in their problem-list. And with Sarah they can spam 4 locusts for 5 seconds, which is great, but it still don't solve other problems, which i described.

    And why flying locust won't be good at defending? They would provide even more dps, they will be more mobile and they won't crowding. Simple example - siege tank which is very good in static defense. They can stand behind turrets line and calmly destroy any enemy. Or even better. They can stay on high ground and kill enemy, while the last can't see them. SH can't do anything from this right now. And yet SH doesn't have any splash like lurkers or tanks (but if they would fly don't really needed cause they can attack air too)
    08/21/2018 10:15 PMPosted by HorrificDoom
    And why flying locust won't be good at defending?

    Because units that can't attack air will just run through instead of futilely trying to kill all locusts (which are basically unkillable with 4x HP and life leech).
    They could spawn one ground and one air locust.

    As now the swarm hosts won't protrcty any air units or overlords you have with them, the pure air units for using them down.

    So the run through issue already exists now, but is less noticable.
    08/21/2018 11:33 PMPosted by Alex
    Because units that can't attack air will just run through instead of futilely trying to kill all locusts (which are basically unkillable with 4x HP and life leech)

    With ground units you can easily deal by nests, and flying locusts are faster and stronger so if enemy is ignoring them, they simply kill them before enemy do something. And i repeat, SH locusts with 100% biomass has 280hp (60 with 0%), while Dehaka's PH locusts just from box has 130hp. And what sense to give as advantage a life leech if locusts are dying too fast because of time? It would be better if biomass extends their lifetime...as an option.
    I can't tell whether OP is talking strictly about Abathur's swarmhosts or SH in general. However, primal swarmhosts and creeper hosts are amazing units.

    I often build nothing but those on many maps. Vermillion, Mists, Cradle, Deaf of Night, Malwarfare and chain can all easily cleared with a swarm of Dehaka's hosts. Even the trains map is a good fit if you add a dozen impalers for train dps.

    I just keep them around the center area of the map because they effectively have some insane 60+ range. They spawn a wave every 25ish seconds and a single wave is often enough to clear an objective, attack wave, outpost or fortification. Hybrids take more but you can just drop Dehaka and/or calldowns to mop up.
    This works especially well on Vermillion problem where they ignore lava phases and DoN where idle hosts can spawn an attack wave headed for infested structures day&night and attack over intact barricades - even tank for them.
    Finally, on miner's they're particularly good at killing the bonus objectives and on Malwarfare they can siege the final outposts and base while dug into high ground at the previous terminal / bonus objective.

    It's like a unit with half the map range which deletes 2 point of interest from the map every minute. All the while you are at zero risk of losing anything and you don't block your ally either.

    The point is:
    08/21/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Nymzo
    Swarm hosts are not made for co-op, that is the reality of the problem.
    Couldn't be further from the truth. If there is a problem with Abathur's swarmhosts then it's just them.

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