Re-evaluate Viper Energy - Balance Changes

General Discussion
09/17/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Edain
Except vipers can use consume to regenerate energy very quickly. Either keep the spell cost high or reduce the cost to be in line with the other spell casters but remove consume as well.


Hi Edain, I liked your post too! It was great, so I looked at your other posts. I also like the one where you describe yourself as a lurker, and suggest that you only read this forum to see the fights, and they should delete the entire forum.

Your post here is wonderful, because, well yeah what you are suggesting would constitute a re-evaluation of viper energy. Nice point!!!! Stay a lurker though, and maybe watch the fighting, cause your point was made in the original post, and you reiterated it reductively. Well done! There is no "Except" required, and there is no "Either" required either: there are other options.
I know people complain about HTs, and I can see why... but I think that viper is maybe the best caster in the game.

3 useful spells for 3 different situations, and a 4th that lets you regenerate energy faster... and all this on a flying unit (maybe not fast, but it can escape over cliffs and such).
Pretty damn good.

I'm actually surprised people don't complain about it more. Maybe it's hard to control.
09/21/2018 06:23 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
You can't think of one? Not ONE Caster that requires a "varied assortment of units"?


I can't even think of one caster that doesn't require a varied assortment of units with them to be fully effective.


Every caster can cast one spell that is effective by itself, otherwise they would have very little value immediately, but all their other spells require an army.

Regarding the Viper, Abduct deletes expensive units (air or ground), Cloud has value against any ground army, including tier one (except ling vs ling, or zealot vs ling, of course) and ParaBomb has value against any air army that has more than two units.

And the current Viper got to where its at after a series of nerfs. So if its fine right now, and was nerfed to get there...logic would say buffing the Viper would be imbalanced. Crazy.

09/21/2018 06:23 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
do seem particularly petty
09/17/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Edain
Except vipers can use consume to regenerate energy very quickly. Either keep the spell cost high or reduce the cost to be in line with the other spell casters but remove consume as well.

Vipers rarely survive a fight so consume never plays a role outside of charging up the viper before the first fight. Ergo, your reasoning is invalid.
09/22/2018 08:47 AMPosted by AchromicWht
I'm actually surprised people don't complain about it more. Maybe it's hard to control.

That is the main reason. You won't see Vipers used well in lower leagues.
Another potential reason is that feedback might scare some players from using the Viper.

The proportion of bio (less affected) to mech players in TvZ might also make a difference.
09/22/2018 09:41 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
09/17/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Edain
Except vipers can use consume to regenerate energy very quickly. Either keep the spell cost high or reduce the cost to be in line with the other spell casters but remove consume as well.

Vipers rarely survive a fight so consume never plays a role outside of charging up the viper before the first fight. Ergo, your reasoning is invalid.

That is about to change in PvZ. More than half of Vipers that a protoss kills are via FeedBack.
09/21/2018 06:23 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
You can't think of one? Not ONE Caster that requires a "varied assortment of units"?


[quote]I can't even think of one caster that doesn't require a varied assortment of units with them to be fully effective.


Every caster can cast one spell that is effective by itself, otherwise they would have very little value immediately, but all their other spells require an army.

Regarding the Viper, Abduct deletes expensive units (air or ground), Cloud has value against any ground army, including tier one (except ling vs ling, or zealot vs ling, of course) and ParaBomb has value against any air army that has more than two units.

And the current Viper got to where its at after a series of nerfs. So if its fine right now, and was nerfed to get there...logic would say buffing the Viper would be imbalanced. Crazy.

09/21/2018 06:23 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
do seem particularly petty


Ok. Here it goes: You are bumping the post I suppose, so in that you are helpful.

Again, it is weird that you are a protoss player, and arguing so hard against zerg changes, in light of the fact that other changes are coming. I think it's also weird that you wave the Danish flag, a liberal minded community, and yet you are so close minded in your arguments and arguing so hard against change in general. Why? I'm not saying I don't like the game, or that it is imbalanced. You want me to argue for changes to protoss units? I have suggested things for them in the past, but I don't play protoss (I have suggested that an observer should look different in the command card in its too different states).

" Cloud has value against any ground army, including tier one (except ling vs ling, or zealot vs ling, of course)".

No, cloud, does not have 100 energy of value against a protoss army, or it does very rarely, and there is no f'ing way it's amazing value. Show me. You say, "of course", but those compositions are, in fact compositions often played and faced in at any stage in the game, but for which you couldn't think of in an earlier post. Pop quiz hot shot: Your opponent has 4 stalkers, you have 4 hydras, and 200 gas and 300 minerals, and you're done, what unit do you choose to make. Hopefully close to the bottom is a viper.

"Regarding the Viper, Abduct deletes expensive units (air or ground)"

It doesn't delete them, it abducts them. Delete implies that it makes them slightly ineffectual.
Tell me what unit you would hesitate to make or even hesitate to bring into a battle because your opponent has vipers on the field. You would still bring in your colossus and disruptors, your mothership, your carriers, your archons, your tempests, your high templar. You would have your finger on the feedback button, and know that you likely have enough energy for it, but you would take every unit into battle without a second thought, and if that was what you were producing in your build, you wouldn't stop producing more of them. The reverse is just not true. All sorts of compositions would stop you from bringing a viper into the battle, and all sorts of timing would inhibit when you brought it into battle.

"Every caster can cast one spell that is effective by itself"

Tell me that abduct is effective by itself, with nothing else. Tell me that. Wow, my head is exploding. It's 75 energy, and they cannot cast it immediately. wtf? Pop quiz: The protoss has an army consisting of one Colossus, but doesn't look like he's trasitioning to any more of them. He's got high templar, stalker, sentry and zealot on the field, and you're about even in strength, you have just completed your hive tech. Do you make vipers? How many? Is it going to be immediately useful like you suggest? You're going to create the viper consume a bit abduct the colossus, and blinding cloud the protoss? or just be confident that he will make archons or advance to higher tech and you'll abduct them.

"...but all their other spells require an army."

No. I went through with you on the previous post, that, in fact NONE (Zero) of the other casters require an army to be effective. No. You can mass oracle. People have done it to me, and used all three spells: revelation, stasis field, and pulsar beam without any other army. It is exceedingly rare, that massing past 5 or 6 vipers is effective, done, or would be a good choice. This is not the case with ANY other spell caster, and ALL other casters except the mothership have been massed to the point where they are a large part of the army in professional games. Why are you arguing this?

"And the current Viper got to where its at after a series of nerfs. So if its fine right now, and was nerfed to get there...logic would say buffing the Viper would be imbalanced. Crazy."

But there are changes proposed, which include changes to the tempest making it more prolific, which can outrange your viper anyways, and changes to the battlecruiser. Why not make the viper a little (just a little) more effective against the new battle cruiser. Crazy, I know.

Everything you say is just a jumble of words. Everything. It's incorrect. It is weird. You are a trump voter, but you wave the Danish flag. If you are danish, your english is amazing, used without the gross hyperbole you exhibited earlier, but your words are tied together in incoherence and incorrectness. It's wrong. Create another post and advocate for changes you want considered, instead of slashing down the ideas of others.

The viper is a viable option against the ranged units of terran. The anti-tank spell (er... blinding cloud) is a choice. The other options against siege tanks are brood lords, swarm hosts, and deciding which unit(s) are going to take damage before you get to the tanks. A strong defence against brood lords is vikings, and naturally, as brood lords are heavy in supply, using some vipers to counter the vikings with parasitic bomb is an option. However, after review of your "negative nancy" comments, I think that blinding cloud should be reviewed rather than the energy of blinding cloud. The viper is not useful in all armies, as you suggested earlier, it is the only spell caster that is an orchestrated and "best option in the zerg arsenal" response to opponent armies. It should be changed. Because of your response you have shifted my opinion, and I'll advocate for that in a different post, and you can stalk me if you want.
09/22/2018 11:20 AMPosted by MrMojoRisin
Again, it is weird that you are a protoss player, and arguing so hard against zerg changes, in light of the fact that other changes are coming. I think it's also weird that you wave the Danish flag, a liberal minded community, and yet you are so close minded in your arguments and arguing so hard against change in general. Why? I'm not saying I don't like the game, or that it is imbalanced. You want me to argue for changes to protoss units?


Woaaaaah cowboy, I'm just gonna stop you right there.
1) Zerg is massively favored against Protoss. Statistically PvZ has been Zerg favored for a very long time.
2) I'm not 'waving the danish flag.' The portrait system for the forums is broken (for a very long time) and isn't showing the correct portraits.
3) I'm not closed minded about changes. If you have literally nothing else to do, please feel free to take a deep dive into my post history. You will see that I'm a strong advocate for change when its warranted.

I'm simply wondering why you want to change something that is completely fine? Something that you have decided needs change, when the vast majority of the community and pro scene don't seem to have a problem with the Viper. The Viper is fine. It serves its purpose, adds value when its available, and has distinct counter-play. Its totally good dude. Why are you getting so up in arms about this?
09/22/2018 10:19 AMPosted by Gama

That is about to change in PvZ. More than half of Vipers that a protoss kills are via FeedBack.


Show me that stat again? Really? I think the A.I. targeting puts vipers somewhere at the top, so as long as the protoss unit isn't being directly attacked, or is on the second line, it will target the vipers. Carriers have a longer range then any other zerg unit, so you have to launch your spell with no other unit attacking and get away without the carrier deciding to attack click your viper. Phoenix out speed them. Is this really a thing? Vipers are your biggest worry in the new proposed balance changes, and the fact that HT won't be able to insta-kill them and overseers looking at your motherships cloked units are your biggest worry?
09/22/2018 12:26 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
09/22/2018 10:19 AMPosted by Gama

That is about to change in PvZ. More than half of Vipers that a protoss kills are via FeedBack.


Show me that stat again? Really? I think the A.I. targeting puts vipers somewhere at the top, so as long as the protoss unit isn't being directly attacked, or is on the second line, it will target the vipers. Carriers have a longer range then any other zerg unit, so you have to launch your spell with no other unit attacking and get away without the carrier deciding to attack click your viper. Phoenix out speed them. Is this really a thing? Vipers are your biggest worry in the new proposed balance changes, and the fact that HT won't be able to insta-kill them and overseers looking at your motherships cloked units are your biggest worry?

Please spare me the armchair theorycrafting of how AI works (when a Silver A-moves the death-ball things work that way). When somebody is in control of the Golden Armada it is another game entirely.
It pleases you or not Vipers score very high in protoss priorities to let their extermination to the AI. Most of protoss players between 5500-7000MMR use Templars to target Vipers.

Go and watch KingCobra videos and educate yourself of how a +6000MMR player deals with Vipers (and Infestors for that matter) and he has a less than 50% winrate in PvZ.
Limit yourself with theorycrafting in Zerg domain, protoss war-theory is not your strong point......
09/22/2018 11:58 AMPosted by Corsair
09/22/2018 11:20 AMPosted by MrMojoRisin
Again, it is weird that you are a protoss player, and arguing so hard against zerg changes, in light of the fact that other changes are coming. I think it's also weird that you wave the Danish flag, a liberal minded community, and yet you are so close minded in your arguments and arguing so hard against change in general. Why? I'm not saying I don't like the game, or that it is imbalanced. You want me to argue for changes to protoss units?


Woaaaaah cowboy, I'm just gonna stop you right there.
1) Zerg is massively favored against Protoss. Statistically PvZ has been Zerg favored for a very long time.
2) I'm not 'waving the danish flag.' The portrait system for the forums is broken (for a very long time) and isn't showing the correct portraits.
3) I'm not closed minded about changes. If you have literally nothing else to do, please feel free to take a deep dive into my post history. You will see that I'm a strong advocate for change when its warranted.

I'm simply wondering why you want to change something that is completely fine? Something that you have decided needs change, when the vast majority of the community and pro scene don't seem to have a problem with the Viper. The Viper is fine. It serves its purpose, adds value when its available, and has distinct counter-play. Its totally good dude. Why are you getting so up in arms about this?


I did take a somewhat dive into your history. Your posts are of limited or little value, and you've made over 4500 posts. All of them are this b.s. I am so glad you're not danish, because you're close minded. You either point out the obvious, or say "no, this is wrong because... (Insert rhetoric, or b.s. statistic here)". I can call you a cowboy. I don't know what stereotype you're trying to get out with that. I can call you an idiot. I could tell you to go back to the ozarks you redneck.

In my 48 posts, I have made several changes to the game which I think are positive: They changed lurker hotkeys because of me. The burrow priority of Queens. Ya that was me. This change to tab priorities of zerg proposed? Yep, I think I was the strongest advocate of that, and might be the cause of that too. Moving drop lords to a separate tab grabbed by control-click. Me.

Again. Everything you say is incorrect:

"Massively",

what does that mean to you. Stats meets Lambo in Blizzcon. I cheer for Lambo cause I'm zerg. What are my odds? What is massive? You giving me 3:1 for Lambo. Well despite my enthusiasm for Lambo, I'm gonna take you up on that.

"Vast majority of the community and pro scene don't seem to have a problem with the Viper."

"Vast majority". Amazing. Where did you get that statistic. Is it "fine"? Do they "not have a problem with it"? So again, I didn't have a problem with the viper when I started this post; I just proposed a re-evaluation of viper energy in light of proposed changes. Now (because of you), I do see the problem with it. Maybe the community will see the problem if I present the problem differently.

"You will see that I'm a strong advocate for change when its warranted.".
Ok I don't have time to deep dive, but show me an example of one of your 4500 posts where you were a strong advocate of change. When it's warranted? Well, change has been announced hot shot, and we're testing those changes, so I was suggesting some changes in response.

"I'm simply wondering why you want to change something that is completely fine?"

Easy there my trumpian redneck douche friend, to use vernacular similar to yours (read into the stereotypes how you like). I will tell you why: I proposed those changes above which have been made on recent patches in this forum, and a few people posted similar "statistics" and posts to yours to my posts when I posted the proposed changes. "Nobody wants those changes. Maybe if you were a better player. Maybe if you used control groups better". The changes got through on the last two or three patches though.

So if you're truly simply wondering why, which you're not, because you're a close minded douche who hasn't wondered anything: That's why. Because I have made changes to recent patches, and bless them, they seem to consider my input.

Can you tell me if you're American and voted for Trump though? I am wondering that. Do you want that wall?
Protoss is getting nerfed in this patch, is already unfavored against zerg and you want to buff one of the best zerg units of all time? The reason people will say Stats should beat Lambo is because Stats is really freaking good at the game. Its funny that there are only ever two to three noteworrthy protoss in a tournament and they are mostly the same players. Neeb, ShoWTimE, Classic, Stats, Zest and sOs (when he performs) are the only players you consistently see in the top of tournaments. If you watch them play, you can see why. They are ALL really freaking good at the game.

If you want to buff a unit, buff something that deserves a buff. Vipers don't deserve a buff. The only unit I could think of buffing for zerg because it underperforms is the spinecrawler. Literally every other unit does its job well.
09/22/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Gama
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Show me that stat again? Really? I think the A.I. targeting puts vipers somewhere at the top, so as long as the protoss unit isn't being directly attacked, or is on the second line, it will target the vipers. Carriers have a longer range then any other zerg unit, so you have to launch your spell with no other unit attacking and get away without the carrier deciding to attack click your viper. Phoenix out speed them. Is this really a thing? Vipers are your biggest worry in the new proposed balance changes, and the fact that HT won't be able to insta-kill them and overseers looking at your motherships cloked units are your biggest worry?

Please spare me the armchair theorycrafting of how AI works (when a Silver A-moves the death-ball things work that way). When somebody is in control of the Golden Armada it is another game entirely.
It pleases you or not Vipers score very high in protoss priorities to let their extermination to the AI. Most of protoss players between 5500-7000MMR use Templars to target Vipers.

Go and watch KingCobra videos and educate yourself of how a +6000MMR player deals with Vipers (and Infestors for that matter) and he has a less than 50% winrate in PvZ.
Limit yourself with theorycrafting in Zerg domain, protoss war-theory is not your strong point......


Here's my suggestion to you: Create a different post: whine about balance, and submit your feedback about protoss being underpowered, and that the feedback damage being reduced is garbage. And enjoy watching your KingCobra videos in the comfort of your own bed under your own sheets with your own sock.

You, Genswift, Corsair, and Edain, could do this together if you're into that actually.
09/22/2018 01:11 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
you're close minded


09/22/2018 01:11 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
hot shot


09/22/2018 01:11 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
trumpian redneck douche like you


09/22/2018 01:11 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
you're a close minded douche who hasn't wondered anything


You okay? You seem suuuuuuper upset for someone who is so open-minded and providing such quality feedback on your bug reports...er...."positive changes." I'm genuinely concerned.
09/22/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Corsair
I'm genuinely concerned.

Let me complete the sentence.....for your mental health.

Latter i will do a more thorough examination (autopsy) of the subject.
09/22/2018 01:11 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
In my 48 posts, I have made several changes to the game which I think are positive: They changed lurker hotkeys because of me. The burrow priority of Queens. Ya that was me. This change to tab priorities of zerg proposed? Yep, I think I was the strongest advocate of that, and might be the cause of that too. Moving drop lords to a separate tab grabbed by control-click. Me.


Is this enough for a diagnosis?

Why the Dead Sea is Dead?
Because of ME (i killed it).

Don't lose time and energy with demented people that rate themselves as Napoleons because....they are short.
He is hopeless.
The minimal critique makes him lose his equilibrium. Being wrong for this demented subject is not an option!
What a waste! He has IQ above 100 (and below 120) but an Gargantuan-size ego.
Cowboy? You insulted that I'm responding to your bulls--t by pointing out that it is, in fact, bulls--t? Corsair, in several posts that you have made recently you and Gama are in the same string: saying the same thing. You and Gama related somehow? Genswift? In which case you have over 5000 posts for which you can show me a positive post or for which you were a successful strong advocate for change.

I'm enjoying beating you up. Sure.

Gama seems fixated on the HT and how he wants the Feedback damage kept at the same. I guess if you advocated for that, you wouldn't be advocating for change you would be advocating for same. Ok. Tell me what change you want or are advocating for, or have made in the past, and, instead of fighting with you, I'll try to help you out. Help? Positive Feedback? Productive member of a community? Beyond you? Well, I can ignore that post and not be involved if you like.

But if you want to hijack my post with your verbal bullsh--t, I'll respond to you. I'm your Huckleberry. (Cowboy movie reference).

Corsair's little bro. ...er Gama. Posts can only be right or wrong. I know you look up to him and because of that, he and you have to be right. Ok. You've made your point. You're right. Absolute waste. Go away and preach your correctness elsewhere.

Oh, and Corsair, are you "genuinely" concerned? No. Every single thing you say.... Verbal diarrhea or incorrect. You've heard it before and you're repeating it like it contains value. You say it, and because you say it you like it, and you think it's your original idea and somehow factual, but it's bullsh--t, all of it. That's the allusion I'm making when I call you Trumpian. "Douche"? Well, that's referring to...
I think it would be cool to test viper as spire tech rather than Hive. Maybe nerf it a bit though, consume probably wouldn't be needed if viper was mid game unit.
09/22/2018 10:19 AMPosted by Gama
09/22/2018 09:41 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
...
Vipers rarely survive a fight so consume never plays a role outside of charging up the viper before the first fight. Ergo, your reasoning is invalid.

That is about to change in PvZ. More than half of Vipers that a protoss kills are via FeedBack.

You're not wrong, but vipers are still suicidal units like banelings. The recharge ability doesn't play much of a role.
09/22/2018 02:50 PMPosted by MrMojoRisin
I'm enjoying beating you up. Sure.


Seriously, are you okay? You've completely derailed into personally insulting random people on the Internet when they simply disagree with you and offer an alternative view.

Again...
09/22/2018 01:32 PMPosted by Corsair
I'm genuinely concerned.

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