Double Stargate Phoenix into Disruptor

General Discussion
This is a really strong PvZ build at the moment. Double Stargate Phoenix was already very strong vs Zerg with the build being seen in multiple major tournaments (including several finals). There are two typical ways to counter it:

- Invest heavily into ground and overwhelm him faster than he can pick units up. Serral did this vs Mana in the finals of WCS.
- turtle while making queens and spores and pumping drones, then go into hydras.

Both of these, however, are now much weaker due to a new follow-up that Protoss has: disruptors. If you go for the first option, it's typically with slow roaches and speedlings as it hits at just the right timing. Slow roaches absolutely cannot dodge disruptors. If you go for the second option you have the same problem: hydras have a very hard time dodging disruptors. It can be done if you are on creep, or if you pre-split, but those are severely restricting factors. All it takes is 1 decent disruptor hit and the phoenix can now win the rest of the fight and it's easy to set up a scenario where the zerg isn't watching since the Protoss has air control and can run circles around the zerg.

The way to beat disruptors is to go for air (mutas) but you absolutely cannot do that if he is going for phoenix (which are an extreme hard-counter to mutas) so the protoss goes double stargate into disruptors. Thus zerg is boxed in with no real answer to this playstyle. You just hope that the Protoss whiffs his disruptor shots, or accidentally move-clicks all his phoenix over your hydras.
Or you just micro hydra ling, presplitting is so unbelievably easy lol.

Right, because move-clicking an orb-of-death is so hard. The fact remains that splitting is much harder than clicking a single unit where you want things to die.

Additionally, it's not as simple as "just pre-split, lol" since the game (the positioning, economies, creep spread, warp prisms) all add extra levels of complexity to it. For example, you are simply moving your army around nowhere near the protoss while you look away to do some injects when BAM your army just disappears. You watch the replay to see a warp prism carrying a disruptor and hunting down your army.

So what you really mean by "lol" "just pre split" is "pre-split at all times and at all places" which is infinitely more apm taxing than simply making a disruptor and clicking it where you want things to die. That's just an example but there are many more aspects. The bottom line is that the new disruptor is VERY powerful and it NEEDS better solutions than just "lol" "pre-split you newb" "it's easy."
That is a really horrible build

It costs a lot of ressources and therefore suffers from the same problems Phoenix-Collosus does in TvP - you just don't have enough stuff on the ground and will be overwhelmed

Unlike Phoenix-Collosus the synergy between Phoenix and Disruptor is way worse as they often counter the same stuff - both are bad vs being swarmed by fast units in high numbers and good vs higher health targets in lower numbers
12/25/2018 11:13 PMPosted by SPQR
That is a really horrible build

It's the new meta in grandmaster. I am seeing it increasingly often. It is a fantastic response to low-tech zerg which by definition doesn't have any speed upgrades except metabolic boost and thus cannot dodge disruptors effectively. Many game scenarios provoke low-tech zerg, such as 2 base allins that fail because the zerg has to skip tech to survive the allin so the protoss can prolong the allin by recalling and going into disruptors which can then often win the game. So the problem is bigger than phoenix play, and extends into any scenario where the zergis forced into going ground units and yet cannot get out movement speed upgrades for his units fast enough which are what enables him to dodge disruptor shots.

12/25/2018 11:13 PMPosted by SPQR
It costs a lot of ressources

It really doesn't because the phoenix force such an economic burden on the zerg. Just the extra queens and spores alone are a huge hit, plus the drones and overlords that are lost. It is very delicate to come out ahead vs double stargate phoenix which is why it is such a popular and successful build.

12/25/2018 11:13 PMPosted by SPQR
therefore suffers from the same problems Phoenix-Collosus does in TvP

I don't think that situation is comparable for many reasons, one of which is larvae cost. The only unit zerg can make which the phoenix can't lift and kill is the zergling. Each pair of lings is a dead drone. If you overwhelm him with lings, you aren't able to end the game (turtling behind a wall) although you will kill his third but you still come out economically behind vs him as the phoenix deal more damage on top of the workers you killed making lings. He simply pumps a round of oracles and those lings are 100% useless and he takes a third.

12/25/2018 11:13 PMPosted by SPQR
you just don't have enough stuff on the ground and will be overwhelmed

Like I said, the two scenarios aren't comparable. The only thing zerg can make to overwhelm the protoss on the ground at that stage is lings, and that comes at too high of a larvae cost and is 100% wasted the moment he makes some oracles. You can't overwhelm the Protoss with ground units when the units you have available (queens, roaches) are slow as cold tar off of creep and are easily picked off by the phoenix.

12/25/2018 11:13 PMPosted by SPQR
Unlike Phoenix-Collosus the synergy between Phoenix and Disruptor is way worse as they often counter the same stuff

Oh no, they serve very different roles and the disruptor is much better in many game scenarios. You simply cannot leave creep with swarmhosts, queens or slow roaches, and you simply cannot get within a certain range of a protoss army. If he has colossus, you can not only leave creep but can poke and prod but if you are even slightly out of position vs disruptors the game is over in a split second. Disruptors are a better follow-up to a low-economy zerg who hasn't teched to lair and got his speed upgrades (roach speed, hydra speed, mutas) which is exactly the scenario that phoenix provoke. Phoenix are so good vs Zerg air that they force queens and hydras, which then cannot dodge disruptor shots unless being defensive with surrounds on creep. From there the protoss has tons of breathing room and can do whatever he wants as long as it beats hydra queen. I would agree that when it comes to large armies clashing, that disruptors are inferior to colossus, but disruptors are infinitely superior during the teching and transitioning phase.
i am not a grandmaster.
but what is with corruptor? you go havy ecco and than you go corruptor/ling/(roach) and when you got air dominanz -> P need void or stalker.
because caustic spray. than you have to look the game:
1.Muta switch best option for harass and disrupter counter.
2. tec fast for brood
3. Hydra switch ( lurker? not the best vs disrupter)
4. swarmhost nydus
isn't this is a case where he can't actually kill you. So your best bet would be to eco like crazy and just work towards a corruptor, broodlord viper doom army. BTW welcome to dealing with disruptors ;)
get nydus vs this
Glad I don't play Zerg, man you guys gotta deal with some disgusting !@#$!

Yep Ling/Roach play seems to be like the only effective offensive thing you can do, otherwise batten down the hatches and camp until corrupter/roach and pray he doesn't have carriers or phoenix range when you move out, or Hydra Infestor Viper and sit around.
kind of like how P looks away for a second and a ball of banelings blows his life up? you have ridiculous map vision as a Z, how do you let a prism with two ruptors sneak up on your army?
12/26/2018 09:49 AMPosted by llllllllllll
kind of like how P looks away for a second and a ball of banelings blows his life up? you have ridiculous map vision as a Z, how do you let a prism with two ruptors sneak up on your army?

You don't have any map vision vs double stargate phoenix. If you even attempt to place tumors or spread overlords they are just free kills. You need creep because it makes your units fast enough to dodge disruptors. Banelings aren't comperable to disruptors because they aren't reusable, nor are they as fast nor are they siege range nor as large of radius or high damage. You have to have a lot of banelings hit to the point it isn't cost effective unless you are hitting high templar. On the flip side 1 disruptor shot lands and your timing is missed and the snowball effect of protoss army strength is now unstoppable (because disruptors are reusable they continue to compound while zerg attacks are a sunk investment).

12/26/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Incubus
Glad I don't play Zerg, man you guys gotta deal with some disgusting !@#$!

Yep Ling/Roach play seems to be like the only effective offensive thing you can do, otherwise batten down the hatches and camp until corrupter/roach and pray he doesn't have carriers or phoenix range when you move out, or Hydra Infestor Viper and sit around.

Roaches and Lings are the only Zerg units that are fast enough to leave creep when the protoss has disruptors. They are the only ones fast enough to dodge disrupter shots off of creep. Roaches can only do it after a speed upgrade that is only available at Lair and there are a lot of scenarios where you end up making a lot of roaches before Lair and then disruptors become extremely good in that scenario. Basically all pre-lair aggression is completely off the table vs protoss, and even then only roaches and lings are viable options but they are both terrible units that you really don't want to make. You want hydras and swamhosts and broods which in these game scenarios are unviable.

12/26/2018 06:06 AMPosted by antimage
get nydus vs this

The problem is that a nydus will always die to a protoss who is paying attention since they are no longer invulnerable. If nydus did survive, normal you send Queens through to transfuse it until all your troops got through but versus mass Phoenix it's easy to pick the queen's up one by one as they pop out. You would have to hit a ridiculously fast timing which would be extremely easy to scout and a good protoss would adapt his build.
Now, Neural-Parasite is a mid-late-game technology (has no bearing with BatZ scenario). It would be hilarious for a Protoss ball completed with Disruptors to be .........bombarded by their own Disruptors.
Some times ago a pesky zerg NP'ed 2 of my full-energy Tempalars and Stormed me to death. I lost the game after that.
Mass Ling and gas goes to Corruptors. Disruptors can’t cost effectively trade against lings. Protoss doesnt have the gas to switch to anything that counters lings and Corruptors force bad trades against Phx until they make a tech switch, which again, costs too much gas. You have complete map control and can snipe nexus for free.
12/27/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Corsair
Mass Ling and gas goes to Corruptors. Disruptors can’t cost effectively trade against lings. Protoss doesnt have the gas to switch to anything that counters lings and Corruptors force bad trades against Phx until they make a tech switch, which again, costs too much gas. You have complete map control and can snipe nexus for free.

You have to add to that equation the HT nerff of FB. All Vipers and Infestors that now will survive are other Zerg units that will be presented in front of a Protoss that has no Carriers.
give me back old disruptors, you cant imagine how happy i will be
12/27/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Farbros
give me back old disruptors, you cant imagine how happy i will be

The old one was excellent in PvT but useless in PvZ. This is half-decent in PvZ but very weak in PvT (where we have more issues).
Unless you are trolling BatZ.....
I would be happy if we had a chance to switch between "old and new" Disruptors (with some rules because different CD).
12/27/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Corsair
Disruptors can’t cost effectively trade against lings.

He won't rely on disruptors in a mass-ling scenario. The money is better spent on oracles which absolutely render mass-ling completely non-viable.

12/27/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Corsair
Protoss doesnt have the gas to switch to anything that counters lings

...

12/27/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Corsair
Mass Ling and gas goes to Corruptors.

That would work except the bulk of your army strength is where you spend your gas and in this case is in corruptors which contribute absolutely nothing vs his ground forces. When he sees you making corruptors (which he will with his phoenix in your face constantly-- seeing the spire he knows it's for corruptors since phoenix hard-counter mutas to such an extreme) he has two options: void rays are VERY good vs corruptors especially with shield battery support, but I think the better option is simply to go into twilight tech for archons. Lings absolutely cannot compete vs archon zealot and since you are reliant on purely lings for your ground control you will lose. Additionally, it opens up the possibility for DT plays since the archons can displace the corruptors and from there phoenix can easily snipe overseers. This makes it extremely challenging to eve be aggressive vs the protoss since you have to babysit your overseer vs an army that is extremely good at melting air units.
You’re talking like the Zerg isn’t playing reactive. If the Zerg sees Phx into Robo, he can flood lings. If he doesn’t switch to Robo, then Hydra/long/whatever. Whatever the Protoss player switches to, they are committed to that. The Zerg player has the luxury of reacting, assuming they didn’t blindly overcommit to their tech.
This sounds more like a scouting problem. Which is admittedly tough with Phoenix controlling the map.
What if you counter with ling/bane?
12/27/2018 04:41 PMPosted by Gooba
12/27/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Farbros
give me back old disruptors, you cant imagine how happy i will be

The old one was excellent in PvT but useless in PvZ. This is half-decent in PvZ but very weak in PvT (where we have more issues).
Unless you are trolling BatZ.....
I would be happy if we had a chance to switch between "old and new" Disruptors (with some rules because different CD).
exactly, I really liked to see this "super micro" from the hardest race, it was so nice when they f2 click and then their army was melted in few seconds, this unit by alone shown that even most of master Terran's can't do anything except F2-T-Aclick and now its gone

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