This is why Zerg is so nauseating to play

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Too many diamond league zergs, gotta learn how to play guys
01/17/2019 05:01 AMPosted by TryHarD
f.e. if a terran wins an engagement near your third, he walks between your nat and 3rd and gg. you wont EVER beat him, because of how the production lines of zerg work. at the same time, if a zerg rolls over a terran, you better have some banes/ranged units left over, or you wont even get behind that wallin, because theres allrdy 10 rines or 1-2 tanks waiting.


I remember when I used to do lurker drops vs terran. Ah, the sight of them just stimming upwards their ramp in panic of their production being cut off into lurker spines.

I don't do it anymore since the hydra upgrade nerf unfortunately. I still hate that double upgrade !@#$. It really makes hydra turn into more of a late mid game unit, only build after you already have a sizable army of other %^-*, like ling bane or roaches.

Thanks, people who keep all-inning Protoss with ling bane hydra off 2.5 base.

01/17/2019 05:56 AMPosted by madumlao
Even in ZvZ, the wall-in timing is very tight, and in most cases not even possible. Your creep simply won't get far enough into the ramp by the time zerglings are roaming, and that's often basically the only time the wall-in matters. Wall-ins are only possible in specific maps following specific timings, after which they end up being a detriment because they slow down your economy and expansion. In fact, if I see a wall-in, I know that I can drone and expand harder than my enemy, and they won't be able to commit roaming army supply until I've matched it. A delayed third on equal army supply is already a loss condition in many ZvZ games.


Vibe says you can do roach wall-off even up to GM. You will end up behind slightly against a Zerg who knows to counter it perfectly, but you can transition to lurkers to make up for that. Hydra lurker cares more about efficiency than economy, like in that Serral vs Rouge game where Rouge is really ahead on eco yet Serral is just more efficient with his engagements than him.

And at Diamond, I still occasionally get free wins vs people who overdrone.

The scariest part is holding the ling/bane flood with just queens and a spine before the roaches come out. One wrong move and you're dead.

This is true, I was thinking though that it might be beneficial against the common Hellion openers that we see nowadays but what you said makes sense.


You can put your roach warren and evo at the front of your nat just to make your lings have an easier time for a surround. And in late game, you can put an evo to the side of your mineral line to make it a little bit harder for hellions to do a runby.
01/17/2019 01:16 AMPosted by BassHabit
i mean i too have the most problem with terran, probably even more than you because i'm !@#$.. i've also contemplated quitting recently because of terran (again) last time was in hots because of widow mines / turtle play.

now with thor getting +1 range which will only kill broodlords because let's be honest, no one is making thors to catch tempest.. shake my head...


I've been having more trouble against Terran lately as well. It's really annoying that they have a million options against Zerg and if you make one mistake it's all over. And yeah, that thor range buff is just stupid. I don't know why Blizzard is obsessed with making thors such a strong counter.
01/17/2019 05:48 AMPosted by Miro
lol 6 lings isn't enough to deal with four hellions. You need at least twelve. You surround those !@#$ers when they dare enter creep.

Queens are only good vs hellbats, not hellions. Even then, roaches are better.


It's funny, because you can actually wall as zerg in the same way that Protoss wall off against zerg (obviously you need to have creep at the ramp/entry of the natural to do this), with a queen on hold position in between a wall of one roach warren and two Evo-chambers. Or 3 evo-chambers.

I honestly don't know why we don't see more zergs do walls like this.

Hell, you can even build a spine crawler and use it as a mobile wall, though it's not really recommended.


This won't defend your third though, which you need to be droning to be even. You also need to constantly be moving queens out in the early-mid game to get more tumours going. Walls for Zerg also hinder your ability to react to army movements on your side of the map, as Zerg is designed with mobility and defending the edge of your creep in mind.

By and large, walling at your natural just becomes inconvenient and sometimes even helps your opponent with more ranged units. (Except ZvZ with ling runbys, but mirrors rarely come into play for balance discussion anyway)
01/17/2019 05:48 AMPosted by Miro
lol 6 lings isn't enough to deal with four hellions. You need at least twelve. You surround those !@#$ers when they dare enter creep.

Queens are only good vs hellbats, not hellions. Even then, roaches are better.


It's funny, because you can actually wall as zerg in the same way that Protoss wall off against zerg (obviously you need to have creep at the ramp/entry of the natural to do this), with a queen on hold position in between a wall of one roach warren and two Evo-chambers. Or 3 evo-chambers.

I honestly don't know why we don't see more zergs do walls like this.

Hell, you can even build a spine crawler and use it as a mobile wall, though it's not really recommended.
Walling off is typically a bad idea against Terran as any race because they can just contain the Zerg or use the wall for their own advantage since Terran doesn't use melee units. It has to be a full building wall against Hellion/Lib or the Liberator can just be used to keep the Zerg from using units to plug the wall. Then the Zerg is just stuck on 2 bases against a 2 base Terran that can safely take a 3rd, and that's just a bad situation all around.

The only exception would maybe be, on some maps, if you're doing a 2-base Nydus all-in, which is a risk in and of itself, but can be effective if all of the Terran forces are on your side of the map while he macros up.
01/17/2019 07:29 AMPosted by Shahzad
01/17/2019 01:16 AMPosted by BassHabit
i mean i too have the most problem with terran, probably even more than you because i'm !@#$.. i've also contemplated quitting recently because of terran (again) last time was in hots because of widow mines / turtle play.

now with thor getting +1 range which will only kill broodlords because let's be honest, no one is making thors to catch tempest.. shake my head...


I've been having more trouble against Terran lately as well. It's really annoying that they have a million options against Zerg and if you make one mistake it's all over. And yeah, that thor range buff is just stupid. I don't know why Blizzard is obsessed with making thors such a strong counter.


Think their armor is going to still make them so weak to hydras that won't be seen in tvz. Kind of doubt they're going to be used against tempest either, I'll see though.

Not sure why literally every race has to consider themselves a victim before the patch even launches.
01/17/2019 04:06 AMPosted by ByunJovi
Wow, you're biased af to not see how trash you defense is. You're losing units for noothing, bad queens placement, bad creep spread. You're just outplayed.
I agree terran has a lot of harass option, now zerg has clearly the tools to defend ....
Noway you're 6k mmr dude regarding this replay.


He is 5.1K MMR. (1:00:34 for end of game and score screen)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/365143963

Everything he says is a fabrication, stop feeding him.
01/17/2019 04:06 AMPosted by ByunJovi
Wow, you're biased af to not see how trash you defense is

Defend a liberator, hellion runby and hellion drop at the same time, while coming out enormously ahead in the resources lost tab = "trash defense". I am not the biased one here, buttercup.

01/17/2019 04:06 AMPosted by ByunJovi
Noway you're 6k mmr dude regarding this replay.

I won the game by massively outplaying him in the midgame, and I did this despite being behind, and he's 5.5k MMR. Not sure how your math works, but whatever protects your terran bias I suppose.

You attack when his hellions are out on the map. Then Terran would get %^-*ed because he has to micro his defense and micro his offense at the same time.

This requires twice the number of dead drones (by making lings) and the terran is advantaged in the multitasking since hellions are splash units designed to hard-counter light units. He is probably rallying hellions at his mineral line back at home, and you'd have to deal with all the insanity caused by him 2-clicking a liberator, 3 clicking his hellion drop, and 2 clicking his hellion runby. You'd have to deal with all that, while also microing vs the hellions at his natural. This isn't a recipe for victory, and if you lose to it you got massively outplayed.

I play Terran offrace and harassing with Terran isn't easy in the slightest, especially without you !@#$ing your macro up in the process.

xD

This isn't even remotely close to true. Move-clicking hellions and shift-clicking liberators is not hard in the least, and it literally doesn't matter how bad you !@#$ up your macro at home as long as you get the drone kills, and delay creep spread and injects. This game is the perfect example. He is floating 1k resources at the end, but is massively ahead in income even though he invested TWICE as much into the attack as the damage that it dealt.

01/17/2019 05:48 AMPosted by Miro
It's funny, because you can actually wall as zerg in the same way that Protoss wall off against zerg

NOPE

If you wall-off, you restrict the movement of your own units EVEN MORE and you simply cannot move to respond to harass. Plus, every evo chamber 2.5 dead workers so if you build 2 then you've lost 5 workers. This guy only walked away with like 8, maybe 10.

I remember when I used to do lurker drops vs terran. Ah, the sight of them just stimming upwards their ramp in panic of their production being cut off into lurker spines.

You cannot go lurkers vs terran.

01/17/2019 07:14 AMPosted by llllllllllll
Vibe says you can do roach wall-off even up to GM. You will end up behind slightly against a Zerg who knows to counter it perfectly

This is about ZvZ and it's off-topic, but Vibe is wrong here or you misunderstood him. Walling off is not a viable strategy in ZvZ. Many maps require 3-4 evo chambers to fully wall off and that's the equivalent of -10 drones. Furthermore, those who don't wall off will get a faster third which equates to more larvae, which equates to more drones. If you decide to do a 2 base roach build, you are enormously behind vs a zerg who simply takes a third and then does the same exact roach build.

01/17/2019 10:02 AMPosted by Ciaus
This won't defend your third though, which you need to be droning to be even.

Yep. I was doing a non-standard ZvT build which rushed a spire with a later third. It's not quite a 2 base spire, but not quite a standard third timing either. In a standard game, you'd have to defend a third with a saturated mineral line which means a wall-off only makes defense harder. Saying, "lol, silly zerg, you aren't 6k MMR! You can just wall off!" is a prime example if low-league bias.

01/17/2019 11:25 AMPosted by Incubus
He is 5.1K MMR. (1:00:34 for end of game and score screen)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/365143963

Everything he says is a fabrication, stop feeding him.

A) I don't play on this account and have been loaning it to a friend.
B) Since I started playing on it (offracing as zerg) I have a 75% win-rate at 5.3k MMR, which includes the free win I gave to ruff. In probably half the games I played, I asked my opponent if he wanted a free hatchery and gave him one if he said yes. On another one, I played vs a 5.8k Protoss who lost to mass slowlings. Let that sink in for a minute. I have a 75% win-rate at 5.3k while being a complete troll.

The evidence clearly shows I am high MMR, but that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that even when you massively outplay an aggressive terran, you STILL fall enormously behind. Defense in ZvT is enormously rigged in the Terran's favor, and this game is the perfect example of it. His mid-game SUCKED. He literally lost 2 orbitals + the workers to a ling runby because his APM budget was too strained (by staring at siege tanks, LOL) to simply click on his orbital and lift it.

He can't play the game worth !@#$, but he is 5.5k MMR because he can run hellions around. That's basically what it comes down to, and it's enormously unfair that Terrans can get free rides to higher MMRs with simple cheese builds but Zergs are required to be APM GODS who have to massively outplay their opponents at every stage of the game to win.

Zerg's defense needs a massive rework. If a Terran goes YOLO with aggression and losses TWICE the number of resources, he should come out behind. Instead, it's the zerg who comes out behind, and it's nauseating.
01/17/2019 11:25 AMPosted by Incubus
He is 5.1K MMR. (1:00:34 for end of game and score screen)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/365143963

Everything he says is a fabrication, stop feeding him.


XD
i'm not even good at terran yet and i'm beating d3 zergs ... just started to try it out recently to see what's terrans are whining about and god damn.. i don't see a problem except for the units kill theirs so fast i don't know what happens sometimes :P
01/17/2019 02:41 PMPosted by BassHabit
i'm not even good at terran yet and i'm beating d3 zergs ... just started to try it out recently to see what's terrans are whining about and god damn.. i don't see a problem except for the units kill theirs so fast i don't know what happens sometimes :P
Stop the presses! M2 zerg beats d3 zergs as terran.
01/17/2019 11:25 AMPosted by Incubus
01/17/2019 04:06 AMPosted by ByunJovi
Wow, you're biased af to not see how trash you defense is. You're losing units for noothing, bad queens placement, bad creep spread. You're just outplayed.
I agree terran has a lot of harass option, now zerg has clearly the tools to defend ....
Noway you're 6k mmr dude regarding this replay.


He is 5.1K MMR. (1:00:34 for end of game and score screen)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/365143963

Everything he says is a fabrication, stop feeding him.


Wow you caught him. And of course he's been "loaning it to a friend." In a free to play game... where he could just go make his own...and of course that "friend" BMs, plays the same race, and whines just the same as him...

Its not at all a surprise, his level of game knowledge is just dismal. I could tell when Terran players were doing 2 base 5 rax all ins every PVT, never making a 3rd, never making an armory, and always just finishing their main to a 3rd if the game went too long. His recommendation was to get a safety viking...

I knew then he was either boosted or other such nonsense. No GM level player would have so little understanding of timings to try and make that argument. There were other arguments you could make, like keep the reaper alive longer, maybe spend a scan, tho even that, the timing was just too tight for it to work. Anyone with GM level game knowledge wouldn't even put that poorly thought out of a conclusion on paper.
And of course his followers already got in line to downvote you.

They hate facts.
I won the game by massively outplaying him in the midgame, and I did this despite being behind, and he's 5.5k MMR. Not sure how your math works, but whatever protects your terran bias I suppose.

Sometimes i win gm around 5k8/5k9, doesn't mean i'm gm .... Obviously you can win someone better with blind counter, rng move etc ....

Defend a liberator, hellion runby and hellion drop at the same time, while coming out enormously ahead in the resources lost tab = "trash defense". I am not the biased on here, buttercup.

Dude common, watch your creep spread, watch your positioning ....

A) I don't play on this account and have been loaning it to a friend

Ahaha, you're the best.
Jovi you're just mocking facts. Obviously, this guy is a multiple business owner who plays video games at an almost professional level. What? You've never met a single business owner that ever plays video games? Me neither, but obviously HE does! AND he doesnt own one but 3 companies... and he's a ladies man that somehow has time to post on forums all day.

Also he's playing the hardest race. When literally every pro says otherwise, well they're trolling Terran players!

Also his account is not his he's totally loaning it out.
01/17/2019 04:52 PMPosted by llllllllllll
Jovi you're just mocking facts. Obviously, this guy is a multiple business owner who plays video games at an almost professional level. What? You've never met a single business owner that ever plays video games? Me neither, but obviously HE does! AND he doesnt own one but 3 companies... and he's a ladies man that somehow has time to post on forums all day.

Also he's playing the hardest race. When literally every pro says otherwise, well they're trolling Terran players!

Also his account is not his he's totally loaning it out.

I emphasize once again that the fact that you don't believe me is an enormous compliment. I love to think that my accomplishments are so vast and mighty that they are literally unbelievable. Please, keep the skepticism coming!
01/17/2019 05:06 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
01/17/2019 04:52 PMPosted by llllllllllll
Jovi you're just mocking facts. Obviously, this guy is a multiple business owner who plays video games at an almost professional level. What? You've never met a single business owner that ever plays video games? Me neither, but obviously HE does! AND he doesnt own one but 3 companies... and he's a ladies man that somehow has time to post on forums all day.

Also he's playing the hardest race. When literally every pro says otherwise, well they're trolling Terran players!

Also his account is not his he's totally loaning it out.

I emphasize once again that the fact that you don't believe me is an enormous compliment. I love to think that my accomplishments are so vast and mighty that they are literally unbelievable. Please, keep the skepticism coming!


What I find truly hilarious is that you posted the definition of "transference." Then you made all these claims that were clear delusions of grandeur. Then you called me a liar for saying I was on vacation in tokyo.

The number of lies I've caught you in is almost beyond funny and in to 'sadness' territory. But you keep going about Iiving your "extravagant lifestyle" while you complain and take zero responsibility for anything. You go gurl!
https://drop.sc/replay/9540081

As promised, 5.5k Protoss losing after I gave him TWO free hatcheries.

https://i.imgur.com/UngmRWP.jpg

5.7k Protoss just took a beating. Poor guy. Only gave him ONE free hatchery.

https://i.imgur.com/3IHyRXw.png

Officially have well over GM level MMR with a nice 75% win-rate. Lol @ the people who said it's harder to get GM now than in HotS. News flash, it's easier now than it ever has been since the talent has moved on to better designed games. With Activision taking over, you should expect the problem to exacerbate.
01/17/2019 06:49 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
https://drop.sc/replay/9540081

As promised, 5.5k Protoss losing after I gave him TWO free hatcheries.

https://i.imgur.com/UngmRWP.jpg

5.7k Protoss just took a beating. Poor guy. Only gave him ONE free hatchery.

https://i.imgur.com/3IHyRXw.png

Officially have well over GM level MMR with a nice 75% win-rate. Lol @ the people who said it's harder to get GM now than in HotS. News flash, it's easier now than it ever has been since the talent has moved on to better designed games. With Activision taking over, you should expect the problem to exacerbate.


no uuuh....no friends to show your sc replays, eh?
01/17/2019 08:04 PMPosted by Motion
01/17/2019 06:49 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
https://drop.sc/replay/9540081

As promised, 5.5k Protoss losing after I gave him TWO free hatcheries.

https://i.imgur.com/UngmRWP.jpg

5.7k Protoss just took a beating. Poor guy. Only gave him ONE free hatchery.

https://i.imgur.com/3IHyRXw.png

Officially have well over GM level MMR with a nice 75% win-rate. Lol @ the people who said it's harder to get GM now than in HotS. News flash, it's easier now than it ever has been since the talent has moved on to better designed games. With Activision taking over, you should expect the problem to exacerbate.


no uuuh....no friends to show your sc replays, eh?

All he has is cars in a garage.

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